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Greydog 1

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Posted: 06/16/14 09:17pm Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

And that's just the beginning of the long ride. The war with foot soldiers is about to be come with Obama sending in troops, so there goes another .75cents at the pumps. More to come. Stand by.

Dick A

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Posted: 06/17/14 12:07am Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

John & Angela wrote:

The funny thing about this thread is the arguments havent changed in the 6 years since it started.......and neither have the prices. Still around the same 3.80 per gallon it was 6 years ago. Too funny. [emoticon]


Great observation; The more things change, the more they stay the same. I still think the great game changer could be the middle east problems.


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SRT

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Posted: 06/17/14 07:32am Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

Dick A wrote:

John & Angela wrote:

The funny thing about this thread is the arguments havent changed in the 6 years since it started.......and neither have the prices. Still around the same 3.80 per gallon it was 6 years ago. Too funny. [emoticon]


Great observation; The more things change, the more they stay the same. I still think the great game changer could be the middle east problems.


Gotta agree with you, Dick. Europe doesn't want to become involved, our political leadership is trying to decide their course of action and the rabid ISIS is advancing on Bagdad. This strife has gone on for centuries and will continue. A possible hope is to give each branch of the Muslims their own chuck of land to call their own and to just stand back and let them go at each other.

Meanwhile OK the pipeline and be oil independent of other countries. We have plenty for ourselves and could sell our extra refined products. Meanwhile we could thoroughly research a reliable alternate to the internal combustion engine.

LindsayRichards

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Posted: 06/17/14 08:27am Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

All of the Canadian oil from that area is presently coming to American refiners and being sold in the US. Rail cars (owned by Warren Buffet) are being used to carry the oil now. The Keystone XL will be used to increase the existing shipments. Oil is a commodity and is sold to the highest bidder. American refiners will be in the best position to buy it as it is already here and no shipping is involved. We already have over 200,000 miles of large crude oil pipelines in our infrastructure. The notion that it will not be sold in the US has been bouncing around the internet for years and defies logic. No financial reason to ship it to half way around the world to China, when it can be used right here. Think it through.





LindsayRichards

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Posted: 06/17/14 02:07pm Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

Right, not a drop, but over a million bbls a day currently. The existing Keystone KL 1 carries much of it and the Keystone XL 2 is slated to carry even more. Canada is our largest importer of crude oil and we receive 99% of their exported oil. Not sure where you get that not a drop, but it is clearly incorrect. If we put in the Keystone XL 2, will they also stop selling the million plus a day they are currently selling us and send it all the way to China?

Government oil information service

Fezziwig

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Posted: 06/17/14 07:27pm Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

LindsayRichards wrote:

All of the Canadian oil from that area is presently coming to American refiners and being sold in the US.


If sold to a non-captive refiner it is sold at the low raw material price, not at high priced retail. The foul ingredients that make the raw tarsands cheap are extracted and dumped into USA air, water, air and offshore waters, and the sweet refined products sent to China at high prices.

It is finished oil (and or cracked products like machine oil, petrol, kerosene, etc.)that is valuable and makes it fungible, not the******that made it cheap tarsands. We will eat the******and China will get the sweet stuff.

LindsayRichards wrote:


Rail cars (owned by Warren Buffet) are being used to carry the oil now.

and it's a horrible situation as they de-rail, pollute, and explode and kill dozens of people at a time. And NO ONE has the political power to stop them from shipping large amounts of explosive tarsands sludge through crowded urban areas as they please.

LindsayRichards wrote:


The Keystone XL will be used to increase the existing shipments. Oil is a commodity and is sold to the highest bidder. American refiners will be in the best position to buy it as it is already here and no shipping is involved.

Refinery source oil is fungible and sells at the same price everywhere in a fair market.

LindsayRichards wrote:


We already have over 200,000 miles of large crude oil pipelines in our infrastructure.

And these new pipelines will be built by the new ultrathin tubing that is even more subject to rupture than the old standard tubing (which already has a poor record, especially as pumping volume increases and internal pumping pressures increase). The new pipes are chosen to save money because they use less steel and are thinner. They are also made exclusively in China so USA gets no manufacturing benefit.

The ultrathins are even more subject to rupture and leakage as pressures must be greatly increased to pump the heavy sludge of wet sand and tar instead of the less viscous sweet oil.

And if you like the Chinese steel so much, talk to the SF Bay Bridge engineers about the Chinese steel in their bridge that is failing regularly. Their arms were twisted to reduce steel standards when China couldn't meet USA and international standards.

LindsayRichards wrote:

The notion that it will not be sold in the US has been bouncing around the internet for years and defies logic. No financial reason to ship it to half way around the world to China, when it can be used right here. Think it through.


It can be refined here, but the resulting finished cost will be so high it'll have to be shipped elsewhere. Are those customers going to take our sludge and benzene and tar also? Or must we dump it in our soil and water and air? Who will pay those (externalities) costs and how will that cost be included in end-user cost? Or are we, in the US, expected to destroy our homeland for the sake of this rogue international market?

LindsayRichards

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Posted: 06/17/14 07:49pm Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

You realize of course that we already have Keystone XL One in operation as well as the numerous trainloads of rail oil, don't you? Are all of these horrible things you predict for XL Two already happening on XL One and if so, please link to some information about it. Surely if what you say is true, there must be a lot of news on it. I haven't seen a thing.

SRT

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Posted: 06/18/14 09:52am Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

Fezziwig wrote:

SRT wrote:


...

Gotta agree with you, Dick. Europe doesn't want to become involved, our political leadership is trying to decide their course of action and the rabid ISIS is advancing on Bagdad.


Europe is utterly distrustful of US leadership after the Bush/Cheney cabal lied and deceived to get them to send troops and money to Iraq and Afghanistan. That administration destroyed 70 years of carefully built trust by the USA.

SRT wrote:


This strife has gone on for centuries and will continue. A possible hope is to give each branch of the Muslims their own chuck of land to call their own and to just stand back and let them go at each other.


That's what we tried to do with the British Empire and the post WW1 nation-building and it all failed. It created the rifts we have now, e.g., Iraq vs. Iran, Israel vs. everyone, etc. Endless war, with one exception: the 1980 Egypt-Israel peace treaty created by Jimmy Carter.

SRT wrote:


Meanwhile OK the pipeline and be oil independent of other countries.

Almost all that oil will go to foreigners, like China. That XL pipeline is not intended for USA benefit, but we will pay the 'externality' costs in terms of loss of fresh water, land and river pollution, etc. The reason the XL crosses the USA is to get it to gulfport where it can be refined (leaving the pollutants behind in the USA) and shipped out to...China!

I suppose we could tell the US Army to take the XL by force from it's owners, Transcanada, but that might start international trade wars and hot wars.

SRT wrote:

We have plenty for ourselves and could sell our extra refined products.


No, we don't have plenty. We've already discovered that the early Monterrey estimates were grossly overdone. We will get little if any petrol from XL. Fossil fuels still are inadequate

SRT wrote:

Meanwhile we could thoroughly research a reliable alternate to the internal combustion engine.


We already have all that available, better engines, better fuels, etc. Besides the IC engine, per se, is not a problem. I've seen an old VW Kharma Ghea converted to hydrogen fuel, in 1974 (during the OPEC holdup), by a skilled home mechanic. And it ran! Hydrogen and ambient air went in, and water came out. It worked! A non-polluting IC engine.
Also, modern petrol IC engines with highly developed computer-controlled components, improved fuel mixes, catalytic converters, etc., are vastly better than old IC engines.

We have to make these improvements more widespread, for example in trucks, trains and ships, but the transportation monopolies have more strength than mere Americans.

We already know how to shift our energy programs to make an energy economy work efficiently, cheaply and with minimum environmental damage. But entrenched vested interests are able to resist change until that moment arrives when they decide to increase their power and their money by announcing to US citizens that we are on a path to disaster and must change IMMEDIATELY with a crash program that will be 100 times what it would have cost if we started in 1974, when we should have started. One of the components of that extra (unnecessary) cost to citizens will be "stranded assets" lawsuits from utility companies that will claim that the citizens, by taking civil political action, have cost them the capital costs of their equipment. They've already done that back in the 70s and 80s as States (cf. California Public Utilities Commission) so the USA Courts have established a track record of favoring such lawsuits (not a surprise since they are the main source of bribe money for judges and politicians).


We don't need more research (except the usual upgrade, update, new tech things), we need better policies. We need to break the hold of vested interests and over-sized monopolies that will consume everything if we let them. We can't let them tell us that new technology isn't ready so they can continue their wicked ways.


My, aren't we negative........[emoticon] Maybe we should "turn the clock back" several hundred years. Horses leave fertilizer around that could be used on our personal gardens. Plus horses reproduce themselves vs. the automobile. But I suppose the EPA would get after us for leaving all those "horse apples" lying around.

* This post was edited 06/18/14 09:59am by SRT *

Bumpyroad

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Posted: 06/18/14 10:41am Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

SRT wrote:

But I suppose the EPA would get after us for leaving all those "horse apples" lying around.


gee, my CB handle was/is road apple. nobody out east knew what it meant. the first time my mom visited and noticed it spelled out on my bumper she about wet herself. [emoticon]
bumpy





John / Angela

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Posted: 06/18/14 02:41pm Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

San Sebastian Spain. 1.41 for gas. 1.42 diesel. In euros.

Just a note. This is our new favourite town in the world. Around 180,000 people. Excellent public facilities, amazingly clean, beautiful architecture, lots of history and well preserved, beautiful beach, halfway between Paris and Barcelona, inexpensive for almost everything, high speed rail connection. Highly recommended for my fellow travellers. We took the high speed train in. Fun watching the sceenery go by at 320 Kmh, and it was cheap. Couple of RV PARKS. Haven't seen them up close yet. Maybe tommorow.

Oh, and all the beaches are topless. Gotta love spain.


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