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JIMNLIN
Oklahoma
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Joined: 09/14/2003
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[quote=Wadcutter] [snip]
[quote=JIMNLIN]
None of the 12 different state I've towed with commercial plates in used "axle manufactors ratings" which is the big buzz that started this topic again. [/quote]
That's because the manufacturer's ratings aren't law. Those are like the mattress tags. They just tell the specs for the product, they aren't statutes.
[/quote]
guess I missed this one so I'm responding late. Indeed those door tag GAWR are very much part of DOT inspection points that we get hit with if we are out of compliance on under 26000 combined plates. And the shift captains comment that they use the same vehicle plates [registered GVWR and door tag GAWR] just as DOT uses for over 10000k vehicles and under 26000k weights. NOW door tag GVWR is a whole different story and the page is about to change on that at the FED level.
As a few others pointed out law enforcement officers are not the best source of DOT enforcement of FMCSA regs [unless they have training] or even non commercial state weight regs. This isn't a rag on state troopers or any LEO as they do a tough job out there. Even the OHP shift captain admitted weight questions for commercial/non commercial compliance should be pointed toward my state DOT officers/inspectors.
JIM
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Wadcutter
IL
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JIMNLIN wrote: Indeed those door tag GAWR are very much part of DOT inspection points that we get hit with if we are out of compliance on under 26000 combined plates. And the shift captains comment that they use the same vehicle plates [registered GVWR and door tag GAWR] just as DOT uses for over 10000k vehicles and under 26000k weights. That tag has nothing to do with legal weight limits. Where the 26K kicks in is for determining when certain MCS laws apply. Those tags are non-enforceable for determining overweights which is what the OP was asking about.
We don't use the tags to determine MCS either. We use the registration weight limits. Once again, the door sticker which is more correctly referred to as the federal sticker is not required by MCS or any other statute after initial sales. It's like the mattress tag. There are vehicles all over the US legally operating without the fed sticker. If a vehicle has had damage repaired in the area of the sticker or the vehicle has been restored and repainted then they most likely no longer have the fed sticker.
Here's one way to better describe the fed sticker. On my fed stickerfor my Dodge pickup it not only lists the manufacturer's weight limits but it also lists the amount of air for the tires and vehicle colors. It says tire air pressure is 50 psi. If I want to put 65 psi in my tires there's not a thing illegal with that. That sticker also says my color is maroon. But I want to paint my truck blue. Nothing illegal with changing the colors even tho it will no longer match the fed sticker. That sticker is a listing by the manufacturer of the manufacturing specs for that specific vehicle.
Also, you are confusing weight laws and MCS laws and registration and axle/gross weights. All of those are completely different statutes, which I have tried to explain previously.
JIMNLIN wrote:
As a few others pointed out law enforcement officers are not the best source of DOT enforcement of FMCSA regs [unless they have training] or even non commercial state weight regs.
Many years ago I was the 1 of 2 of the first in the state to be certified as MCS trained officers. In addition I taught MCS and weight laws, not only to other Troops but also in many many presentations to various trucking companies. You would not believe the number of calls we fielded daily from trucking companies and drivers who were seeking explanations of the laws and were completely confused, usually because they listened to some other driver who also didn't have a clue what he was talking about.
I can assure you that a truck driver isn't the person to ask for explanation of the laws. They aren't trained. LEOs trained in MCS and weight laws are a whole lot better source of weight and MCS laws than truck drivers. LEOs are going to keep up on the statutes and latest court ruling because that's our job. We train the trucking companies. If drivers were generally so well trained then I wouldn't have been writing so many tickets and placing so many trucks and drivers out of service over the years. We averaged over 1/3 of the trucks inspected were placed out of service, either the driver or the truck.
JIMNLIN wrote:
This isn't a rag on state troopers or any LEO as they do a tough job out there. Even the OHP shift captain admitted weight questions for commercial/non commercial compliance should be pointed toward my state DOT officers/inspectors. .
Not a rag on drivers either.
I am aware the OHP do not play a primary role in second division enforcement. That's not their job. There's a separate agency in OK for second division enforcement. Why ask the opinion of a shift commander of an agency who is not tasked with enforcing a law about such a law? That just doesn't make any sense. Makes as much sense as asking Child and Family Services investigator about laws pertaining to the lottery. 2 separate agencies tasked with enforcing 2 different laws.
However in IL the ISP is the agency tasked with that role, not DOT. IL DOT plays no role in weight enforcement except maintaining the scale houses and issuing over size load permits. No other LE agency in IL, including DOT, has any authority enforcing MCS laws. By IL statute only the ISP can enforce the MCS laws. That's why IL Troops are trained in MCS and weight laws. It's our job.
However, there is definitely confusion here. You are confusing MCS laws and weight laws. Those are 2 separate distinct sections of the law, neither of which has anything to do with the other. Weight laws are not MCS and MCS are not weight. MCS laws do not apply to the guy pulling his RV south for the winter or to the mountains and his favorite fishing hole in the summer.
Please, don't confuse MCS issues here. They have absolutely no application.
* This post was
edited 11/18/07 09:30am by Wadcutter *
Camped in every state
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Wadcutter
IL
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grey`eagle wrote:
“The catch all” paragraph that causes more heartburn that any one of the other CFR’s is plainly stated “ careless and reckless operation”
What is the definition of "careless and reckless"? When going to court a LEO is going to have to show some legal basis to what exactly is "careless and reckless". An individual LEO's personal belief won't fly in court. Example: A LEO doesn't think 16 yr olds have enough experience to be considered safe drivers. That same LEO stops a 16 yr old for speeding 95 MPH. The cite is speeding, not "careless and reckless" even tho the LEO's personal belief is 16 yr olds don't have the experience to drive 95 MPH.
IL has the statute, as do all states worded one way or another, of reckless driving. That statute in itself is pretty non-descript. However, one has to look at court rulings to determine how the law is applied. For these statutes to be legally and Constitutionally valid laws have to specify the exact elements of the crime or violation. In the "reckless and careless" statutes the courts have ruled that it requires specifying what illegal acts constituted the "reckless and careless" violation. As an example, someone pulls out of a parking lot without stopping in front of oncoming traffic, loses traction, and slide sideways into the adjoining lane. Violations are failing to stop exiting a private drive, failure to yield to oncoming traffic, and improper lane usage. Instead of writing the 3 separate violations those 3 violations can be lumped under "reckless and careless". So when going to court the LEO can explain exactly which illegal acts warranted a "reckless and careless" charge. Take the same example above but change it so the only violation is the driver swerved into another lane when exiting. There are not a series of events which shows "reckless and careless" actions but only improper lane usage. The courts have said 1 violation is not "reckless and careless" but is a violation of the specific statute.
Same would be the case if a person would happen to be overweight on axle. As an example, a person drives a truck with 40K on a tandum axle. He's 6000K over the legal limit. It's not "reckless and careless", just overweight on axles. Now if that person is hauling 40K on a truck which has a broken spring, blown pancake on the brakes, and a defective tire, those violations in combination might constitute a "reckless and careless" citation. Any of those individually would not. However, realistically, when inspecting a commercial hauler with those violations all of the individual violations would be cited instead of lumping them all into "reckless and careless". Reason being is the MCS inspection for the separate violations would be a bigger bite on the company than 1 single "reckless and careless" charge which is not an MCS cite.
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mowermech
Billings, MT
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After reading all the above, I still only know a few things for sure:
1. The door jamb data tag has NO force of law.
2. My truck is registered for 14,000 pounds Gross VEHICLE weight, NOT Gross COMBINED weight (the registration paper is very clear: GVW).
3. My custom built Jeep Wrangler pickup is registered for 6000 pounds GVW.
I think that is all I really need to know.
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grey`eagle
N31° 55’ W95° 30’ ----- ESE of One Tree, TX
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Wadcutter wrote:
What is the definition of "careless and reckless"? When going to court a LEO is going to have to show some legal basis to what exactly is "careless and reckless".
Under Federal guidelines the charge is or can be "careless and reckless" driving, the "specification:to wit" can be either or, speeding over 20 mph of posted limit (VA).
Also a specification of weaving in and out of traffic, or excessive lane changes (CA). OR "Failure to pass to left safely", this used in TX when a suspect rear ends another auto among other combined issues.
Also, if you were ever in the US Armed Forces the same type of charges and specifications are the standard.
It my understanding from talking with several of my friends (both LEO and attorneys) involved at the federal level, that several states follow this same standard. Obviously, from your comments, IL is not one.
I was advised by one of the LEO's that the point factor is higher should the person be cited and found guilty of the "careless and reckless" charge.
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_Adam_
PDX
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Removed.
* This post was
edited 11/25/07 05:24pm by an administrator/moderator *
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Wadcutter
IL
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grey`eagle wrote:
Also a specification of weaving in and out of traffic, or excessive lane changes (CA). OR "Failure to pass to left safely", this used in TX when a suspect rear ends another auto among other combined issues.
All of those examples you cited were multiple violations which give rise to the reckless and careless charge. Weaving in and out of traffic would be multiple events, not just a single improper lane change. Failing to pass safely and rear ending a vehicle are multiple events.
If a single event was the only element for reckless driving then any crash could be cited for reckless driving. However, that's not the case.
grey`eagle wrote:
I was advised by one of the LEO's that the point factor is higher should the person be cited and found guilty of the "careless and reckless" charge.
That is true as it applies to points for a single citation. A single citation for a reckless driving is more than points than a single citation for an improper lane change.
adamrmathis wrote:
And I happen think it is worth repeating:
LEO's are subect to the same errors the rest of us are. As a human, we all make mistakes. I'm not trying to bash any LEO's, just tring to point out that being a LEO doesn't make one correct.
My point being is that LEOs have training in the law, the average person does not. The average person gets their "legal knowledge" from watching TV shows, short clips from newspapers, what they see in the movies, and from listing to stories told by their friends and neighbors and then believing all that BS is true. The average person has never picked up a law book, has never read any actual statutes, and doesn't know where to go to find a particular statute if they had a book of statutes. That's not a guess or assumption on my part. That's from spending 35 yrs in LE and answering questions from the public on various laws.
How your referenced clip is of any relevance to this thread is beyond me as it has nothing to do with LEOs, weight laws, traffic laws, or criminal laws. I'm sure it makes some sense to you tho. But it does go to prove my point about the average Joe not understanding the law. For that, thanks for posting it. But I'll humor you. Grape Nuts don't contain grapes or nuts and Animal Crackers aren't made out of animals.
If the average Joe was as knowledgeable with the law as you seem to think then threads such as these wouldn't be necessary.
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JIMNLIN
Oklahoma
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Joined: 09/14/2003
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[quote=Wadcutter][quote=JIMNLIN] Indeed those door tag GAWR are very much part of DOT inspection points that we get hit with if we are out of compliance on under 26000 combined plates. And the shift captains comment that they use the same vehicle plates [registered GVWR and door tag GAWR] just as DOT uses for over 10000k vehicles and under 26000k weights. [/quote]
That tag has nothing to do with legal weight limits. Where the 26K kicks in is for determining when certain MCS laws apply. Those tags are non-enforceable for determining overweights which is what the OP was asking about.
======================================================================
let me say this again. When we apply and operate with combined plates for a 3500 truck [example] the door tag GVWR and the trailers GVWR is added together to make my combined numbers. If the state the truck is registered in has a uprate GVWR [as my state] that it is my registered GVWR. My last 3500 DRW had the 15000 GVWR uprate registration plus the 16000 GVWR trailer gave me my combined 31000 lb combined. Other operators say some states don't have a uprate GVWR so they were required to use their truck plates GVWR for their registration. dot also checked my GAWR [RAWR/FAWR] per door tag for proper load distribution. Thats all per dot requirements and how dot enforces under 26000 lbs and over 10000 lbs.
======================================================================
We don't use the tags to determine MCS either. We use the registration weight limits. Once again, the door sticker which is more correctly referred to as the federal sticker is not required by MCS or any other statute after initial sales. It's like the mattress tag. There are vehicles all over the US legally operating without the fed sticker. If a vehicle has had damage repaired in the area of the sticker or the vehicle has been restored and repainted then they most likely no longer have the fed sticker.
Here's one way to better describe the fed sticker. On my fed stickerfor my Dodge pickup it not only lists the manufacturer's weight limits but it also lists the amount of air for the tires and vehicle colors. It says tire air pressure is 50 psi. If I want to put 65 psi in my tires there's not a thing illegal with that. That sticker also says my color is maroon. But I want to paint my truck blue. Nothing illegal with changing the colors even tho it will no longer match the fed sticker. That sticker is a listing by the manufacturer of the manufacturing specs for that specific vehicle.
Also, you are confusing weight laws and MCS laws and registration and axle/gross weights. All of those are completely different statutes, which I have tried to explain previously.
[snip]
However, there is definitely confusion here. You are confusing MCS laws and weight laws. Those are 2 separate distinct sections of the law, neither of which has anything to do with the other. Weight laws are not MCS and MCS are not weight. MCS laws do not apply to the guy pulling his RV south for the winter or to the mountains and his favorite fishing hole in the summer.
Please, don't confuse MCS issues here. They have absolutely no application.[/quote]
======================================================================
your interpetation of your state weight laws and what mcs laws your state enforces may hold true in your state but your mistaking other state interpetation of those laws. MY state will enfore door tag weights and is cracking down on non commercial users such as 3500 trucks pulling heavy construction equipment. And yes just as I mentioned before the OHP shift captain said they use the same GVWR/GAWR tags as dot. I've been through many weigh station checks when hauling commercial/dot and those dot officers certaily checked manufactors door tag weights. Your state may not check door tag numbers but the different states that I was compliant in sure did.
Don't assume if your state doesn't use MCS/FMCSA regs for non commercial enforcement that others don't.
Never had a dot officer check my paint per door tag but did get a couple of great color combo.
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grey`eagle
N31° 55’ W95° 30’ ----- ESE of One Tree, TX
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Given the excellent information posted above. It appears that we RV'ers can safely and logically come to the conclusion that we are not subject to the weight laws (in IL and AL) for our class as long as we remain under 26,000#s.
That is unless we cause some serious or fateful accident due to negligence on our part due to the overloading of a tow vehicle and/or trailer combination, regardless of what the mfg'er has posted regarding weight limitations and/or restrictions.
It would very interesting to see what the trained and experienced experts from CA, NY, FL and other high viz states have to say on this matter regarding RV's and not operations that are strictly commercial.
If you remove any and all references to "commercial" in the above post, it appears that we are right back to square one. IMHO.
For those that don't quite understand the references MCS law , read the link.
I must say, this reminds me of the old age, "don't worry about the mule, just load the wagon".
NO, I don't have an automotive engineering degree and didn't stay at Holiday Inn Express. BUT, I do have a MS in Physics and 40+ years hard experience. Especially in the area of Kinetic brake energy limits in addition to the hard and true effect of density altitude on internal combustion engines.
And YES, I too, have been called to testify as an expert witness when families of the deceased were suing mfg'ers for negligent equipment malfunction.
Based on my testimony before juries and Grand Juries, I strongly believe that the inference and comparisons of vehicle mfg'ers limitation decals to mattress tags will not hold up. If I'm not sadly mistaken, the reference to paint color is not on the limitation decal, it's buried in the VIN number. At least it is on the GMC and Ford products.
My 2¢s worth which might get a cup of stale coffee someplace east of Poduck. ![[emoticon]](http://www.coastresorts.com/sharedcontent/cfb/images/smile.gif "smile")
* This post was
edited 11/19/07 11:29am by grey`eagle *
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Wadcutter
IL
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[quote=JIMNLIN] let me say this again. When we apply and operate with combined plates for a 3500 truck [example] the door tag GVWR and the trailers GVWR is added together to make my combined numbers.[/quote]
And let me say it again. You are confusing weight laws with registration. They are 2 separate issues.
What you are describing for the way your state registers trucks and trailers is exactly the same way done in IL.
[quote=JIMNLIN]
your interpetation of your state weight laws and what mcs laws your state enforces may hold true in your state but your mistaking other state interpetation of those laws. [/quote]
IL's MCS laws are the fed MCS laws. Even the sections are the same. When IL adopted the MCS laws in the very early 80s it was done in toto. Those were mandated by the feds to all the states.
[quote=JIMNLIN]
MY state will enfore door tag weights and is cracking down on non commercial users such as 3500 trucks pulling heavy construction equipment.[/quote]
Once again you are confusing 2 separate issues.
I'm done discussing it with you. You have a mental block on separation of the 2 laws - overweights and registration. 2 separate sections and one not related to the other. It's impossible for me to explain it any clearer than I have. However, your mind is made up and you can't seem to separate the 2 issues. That's a clear indication of someone not fully understanding the topic.
[quote=grey`eagle] Given the excellent information posted above. It appears that we RV'ers can safely and logically come to the conclusion that we are not subject to the weight laws (in IL and AL) for our class as long as we remain under 26,000#s.[/quote]
RVers aren't subject to MCS laws. MCS just doesn't apply. Just to randomly say MCS would apply if over 26K doesn't take into account what MCS would actually require. People think if MCS applies then they'll need a CDL. If it were only that simple. If MCS laws would apply then RVers would have to complete a log book, limited on the number of hours they could drive, would be restricted to not carrying passengers unless properly licensed, carry an extra set of glasses if they wear them, carry extra batteries for hearing aids if they wear one, would have to carry a bill of lading listing everything they have in their RV, and all the other requirements commercial drivers have to put up with. In addition, if RVers were subject to MCS laws then any certified law enforcement officer could stop the RV without cause, do a complete inspection inside and out, and a LEO could place the RV out of service for too many hours or defective equipment with fines up to $10,000 per day.
But the fact is none of this even matters. This thread is about weight laws, not MCS laws. Since MCS is even mentioned by some shows they have no understanding of what it is about and they're talking smoke trying to give the impression they're informed. If they were really informed about the weight laws then they would never have mentioned MCS laws since MCS laws are completely separate from weight laws and have no bearing on the topic.
[quote=grey`eagle]
For those that don't quite understand the references MCS law , read the link.[/quote]
Your link concerns insurance issues. MCS is a whole lot more than insurance issues.
[quote=grey`eagle]
Based on my testimony before juries and Grand Juries, I strongly believe that the inference and comparisons of vehicle mfg'ers limitation decals to mattress tags will not hold up. [/quote]
Mixing apples and oranges. This entire thread has nothing to do with crashes, etc. It's about registration.
The fed stickers are required by law for initial sales. After that point they are not required on the vehicles.
Oh yeah, and I have testified too, quite a few times, on criminal and civil cases as not only the expert witness but as the person who conducted the investigation.
[quote=grey`eagle]
If I'm not sadly mistaken, the reference to paint color is not on the limitation decal, it's buried in the VIN number. At least it is on the GMC and Ford products.[/quote]
Ford and Dodge sure does have the colors listed on the fed sticker. It's been a while since I owned a GMC. It will be a 1 or 2 letter code listed somewhere on the fed sticker, right along there with the tire sizes, tire pressure, and other data that have no bearing on the law. It's simply amazing that guys get their undies in a wad worrying about what the sticker says about their weight but don't think anything about the same sticker listing tire size if they change tire sizes. Again, it all goes back to not understanding what it is they're talking about.
Also, the color is not part of the VIN. All manufacturers use the same 17 digit VIN numbering system. All the VIN does is tell the manufacturer, model, body style, year, plant where it was built, a check digit, and the sequential numbers. Nothing about color.
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