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blt2ski
Kirkland, Wa
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Bert,
Do not quote me on this, as it may fall into the catagory of you last sentence about 1 min ago. I believe canada has slightly different actual how you load you rigs wt laws, Ie there is no a 20K limit per axel as "OUR" federal bridge laws state. I seem to recall from talking to a trucker that delivered a bunch of 20-25' W red cedars to me on a flatbed, that he could go to 25K per axel vs 20K here, and 45 per tandem vs 34K or some such variation. Please note, my numbers are from a 10 yr back discussion, and are for just that, discussion purpose only to show that there is a variance between the two country's.
Personaly opinion, is if you were to get pulled over as an RV'r for what ever reason, and wieghed. You did not have a reg wt per say due to your local regs. you would/should be given the fed law bridge limits, ie the 20K per single, and 34500 per tandem. Or like in my state, the above limits, but they also have a tire width limit, so you could or would be below that limit with many rigs also.
Then again, I am not an attny, nor am I a trooper etc. The above is just that, an opinion from my experience of getting pulled over and weighed. As I have a couple of time been over my reg wt, but below the fed bridge laws. In the end, I was given a up GVWR with in 10 days "warning" ticket then the overwt was waved........so on I went.
Some of the issues you are bringing up, in reality, will not be an issue for those of us with RV's. If you were a commercial driver as I am with my dump truck, then yes, they are issues, but for joe public. If one stays below the axl limits stated by the manufacture, you will be fine.......EXCEPTING, when on class A or even some C MH's, the manufacture uses a 25K RA then you are limited to the fed 20K per axel law.
Marty
92 Navistar dump truck, 7.3L 7 sp, 4.33 gears with a Detroit no spin
2014 Chevy 1500 Dual cab 4x4
92 Red-e-haul 12K equipment trailer
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jmramiller
Dallas
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Joined: 01/24/2006
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JIMNLIN wrote:jmramiller wrote: (snip)
As this is a RV forum I in no way intended the OP to be about commercial towing. I created this thread in direct response to your multitude of posts suggesting to others that if they exceed the axle ratings posted on the door sticker they are in violation of both federal and OK law per FMCSA. You have repeatedly stated that OK uses these regs for both commercial and non commercial vehicles suggesting that non commercial TV's are legally bound by the door sticker. You have repeatedly stated that if you are pulling an RV and you get weighed for any reason in OK and over the door sticker axke weights you will be cited. After reading both the FMCSA and the OK regs there is not a single instance where the RAWR on the door sticker is legally binding. The regs do not even limit the steering axle to the door sticker ratings unless the state writes it in their own codes which the FMCSA allows but does not mandate. I challange you to prove otherwise.
As far as the sticker being required by law...this is intended to protect the consumer from fraudulant claims by the manufacturer. No where in the regs that require the sticker does it require the consumer to abide by these numbers. The comparison of a mattress tag is a very good one. In fact the mattress tag clearly states that it is unlawful for the sticker to be removed by anyone other than the end user. My door sticker doesn't say anywhere that it can not be removed.
you betcha' I have stated how my state enforces door tag axle weights as that is how we balance our loads per FMCSA commercial combined hauling. Any hotshoter/commercial hauler will tell you that. See my replies above for FMCSA regs. Your interpetation of cfr 49 part 567.4 as a matteress tag is yout opinion. No where does it say its just a tag for fradulent claims (disclaimer). Quite the contary. Fmcsa 571.110 is 12 pages long and states how GAWR/tire capacity/GVWR are tied and the placard with that info and the placard are a statutary requirement. That also is a state/fed requirement for a usdot number application and for a commercial combined tag for 26000 lb and above.
No where have I repeatedly said we can be pulled over and cited for being over axle weights. Quite the opposite. Just as those two officer said that RVs are a low priority. What I have said is my state uses those door tag axle weights for commercial (FMCSA) and non commercial which includes axle weights right off the door tag. Your interpetation of my states regs we enforce is quite different that my state dot and OHP officers verbal info as they gave. As I said earlier guess whos interpetation I'll use. How about some documentation to back up your claims. You can't do it. Thats why I went to my state to get their interpetation.
It looks to me as your not interested in finding any legalities as you seem to have a agenda just to prove someone wrong. The only way to prove I'm wrong is show folks a reg that states your claim/opinion.
Those FMCSA 571 regs and FMVSS 571 regs and FMVSS 567.4 and .5 aren't just for looks or simply as a disclaimer but are statutory laws pertaining to door tag (placard) info.
Just a point when your looking at fed regs on the web is sometime its a shortened version. Also look at disclaimer or new law clickies when your in FMCSA regs.
Jim I have repeatedly provided links and quotes to both federal and OK state regs which support my position. Don't believe me? You have a very short memory. Look back at the first post in this thread and you will see a quote which debunks your claims. It cleary indicates that a state can not limit a non steering axle below 20k on the interstate system. That statement alone negates the limit on the door sticker. It is in black and white and it is the law.
Here is the quote again:
(f) Except as provided herein, States may not enforce on the Interstate System vehicle weight limits of less than 20,000 pounds on a single axle, 34,000 pounds on a tandem axle, or the weights derived from the Bridge Formula, up to a maximum of 80,000 pounds, including all enforcement tolerances. States may not limit tire loads to less than 500 pounds per inch of tire or tread width, except that such limits may not be applied to tires on the steering axle. States may not limit steering axle weights to less than 20,000 pounds or the axle rating established by the manufacturer, whichever is lower.
The only axle that a state may limit to a manufacturer's established axle rating is the steering axle. I would like to make an important observation here. A lot has been made about the difinition section of this code. It is important to note that in this paragraph the terms everyone keys on in the difinition code are not used - example: GAWR, GVWR. These terms are all associated by difinition with the vehicle manufacturer. In this case the writers of the code did not use these terms. This would indicate that in this instance the "manufacturer" is not the vehicle manufacturer at all but rather the axle manufacturer. If the writers intended to refer to the vehicle manufacturer why would they have not used the terms that they so pains takingly defined? Better yet why did they not simply state "Open the door and look at the tag to see what you can carry/tow"? They didn't do it because that is not the intent of the code whatsoever. I know that none of this will sink through to you (that is a lost cause)and that is fine as I am no longer responding for your benifit but for the benifit of the other readers.
2006 2500HD CC SB 4X4 Duramax/Allison
Prodigy/16K Reese/265E Tires/Bilstein Shocks
RM Active Suspension/RDS 60gal Toolbox combo
2008 Big Country 3490BHS by Heartland
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BertP
Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
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Joined: 11/07/2003
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I did manage to find the commercial weight regulations for Alberta (AR 315/2002) and it is similar to the FMCSA regs. It lists max weight per tire, axle, axle group and vehicle among other things.
I was also able to contact a vehicle standards specialist in the Alberta government. According to him, the reason I couldn't find any regs dealing with the weight of private vehicles is because there aren't any. He pointed me to the Traffic Safety Act in particular Section 66. Basically, anyone operating a vehicle in Alberta must ensure that it is in safe operating condition. That covers mechanical condition and weight among other things. So, it isn't illegal to exceed the manufacturer's GVWR unless a LEO believes that such a load is unsafe.
Bert
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pupeperson
Silver Springs, NV
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JIMNLIN said: "571.110 S2.2.1 says "except as noted in S4.2.2.2, the sum of the maximum load ratings of the tires fited to an axle shall not be less than the GAWR of the axle system as specified on the vehicles certification required by 49 CFR part 567 (FMVSS placard reg). "
If this quote is correct, it would appear that it would be against the law for a person to install a "D" rated tire (or C or P or whatever lower rating) in the place of an "E" rated tire if the vehicle came equipped with "E" rated tires from the manufacturer.
I doubt that is the case. It is far more likely that the reg quoted applies to the vehicle assembler/manufacturer rather than to the end user. This would also account for the reason the vehicle assembler/manufacturer "under rates" the axles when compared to the ratings given by the actual axle manufacturer.
If the assembler/manufacturer rated a SRW rear axle at the full 10,800 lbs. the axle manufacturer gives it, they'd have to install (according to the Goodyear tire rating chart) at least 275/70R22.5 tires on it to match that axle rating! (5400 lbs per tire at 90 psi single)
That would appear to answer a long standing question regarding the reason behind the axle ratings matching twice the tire ratings --- which would give credence to the fact that what matters is the DOT rating on the tires/wheels and the accurate comparison of the axle weight rating to a mattress tag.
Thanks Jim! You finally posted something that makes sense out of something that has bothered me for a while. Why do they do it(under rate the axle)? Because the regs require them to in order to be in compliance with the tag that has to be there to show the vehicles capabilities AS IT LEFT THE FACTORY, not necessarily after upfitting with more highly rated tires, wheels, suspension components, etc.
For what it's worth, Jim, you're the last person on here I would have expected that info and its resulting claification to come from. Thanks again!
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Gunpilot77
Killeen, Tx
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JIMNLIN wrote: Keep in mind FMCSA regs are a recommendation for our states BUT states are required to be equal or better those regs.
It has nothing to do with the subject of this thread, but you have that completely backwards. FMCSA regs are the STANDARD in all states if you are commercial. States are not allowed to impose more stringent rules. There are some LEOs who enforce certain paragraphs to the letter, like the one in IA who ticketed one of my friends twice, in two different pickups, for tinted side windows.
That being said, there is no room for different interpretations as far as FMCSA is concerned. If I load my deckover gooseneck flatbed to 16,000 pounds and it is commercial, OK can not ticket me for being over weight based on anything. For one thing, the sticker you are so proud of fell off years ago. I could be ticketed at 16,000 for exceeding the registered weight however, since it is registered for 14,000.
I'm still waiting for that first LEO to look at my door sticker.
Fifth wheel pulled with a pick-up
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BertP
Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
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Unless I'm reading this wrong, isn't that what Jim said? In other words, the FMCSA says that the max gvw for a commercial truck is 80K lb, but a State is free to enforce a higher weight than that - just not a lower weight. According to this link, the max GVW's in the US vary from 80 K lb to unlimited.
Bert
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Wadcutter
IL
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Joined: 05/25/2004
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BertP wrote:Unless I'm reading this wrong, isn't that what Jim said? In other words, the FMCSA says that the max gvw for a commercial truck is 80K lb, but a State is free to enforce a higher weight than that - just not a lower weight. According to this link, the max GVW's in the US vary from 80 K lb to unlimited.
Bert
Nope. In IL the max weight on roads is 73,280 except for designated highways which can be up to 80,000. That includes interstates and most state highways.
I'm sure as heck not going to get into Class I, II, and III level highways as it doesn't have anything to do with the OP's original question.
Camped in every state
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BertP
Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
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Right - sorry, again if I understand correctly, the FMCSA's jurisdiction is limited to the Interstates, isn't it? So, if the FMCSA says a min GVW of 80K, it is referring to the interstates and not other State highways.
Bert
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Wadcutter
IL
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BertP wrote:Right - sorry, again if I understand correctly, the FMCSA's jurisdiction is limited to the Interstates, isn't it? So, if the FMCSA says a min GVW of 80K, it is referring to the interstates and not other State highways.
Bert
FMCSA doesn't involve weights. FMCSA deals with things like equipment issues and driver qualifications. Weights are something else entirely separate from FMCSA.
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JIMNLIN
Oklahoma
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pepurperson
FMCSA reg 49 cfr 571.110 and 571.120 are the regs that ties the vehicle manufactors GAWR (placard) and tires capacity. When we look at S5.1.2 it says "if the tires size designation of the tires fitted to the axle does not appear on the certification lable, the sum shall be not less than the lowest GAWR appearing on the label. The label (door tag) is required per 49 cfr part 657.4 which has the vehicle manufactors GVWR and GAWR. As I stated above my neighbor lady (longhauler/hotshot) came up with that reg as she just tagged her new '07 6.7 Cummins CR 3500 for over 26000 lbs combined.
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gunpilot
you are correct. Guess I could have said it a little clearer. My state is required to operate per FMCSA for our commercial operators. But we do use those placard (door tag) GVWR and GAWR and tires capacity for non commercial weight capacities. 49 cfr part 571.3 gives us our definitions of GVWR/GAWR.
I had the very same thing happen on one of the companies we sub contracted through GNs flatbed. TX DOT crawled under the trailer and got the axle capacity from the axles. He added both axle numbers and I was just under. His comment was I was lucky. If he hadn't found those axle tags it meant impounding till I came up with some GVWR tag or axle tags from the axle manufactor.
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jmramiller
those big numbers are max loads. Our size trucks come under those regs for over 10000 lb GVWR and 10000 GVWR and under such as 571.110 and 571.120 regs. Look at 49 cfr 571.3 gives us the definitions of GAWR/GVWR/GCWR. It states that GAWR is the vehicle manufactor rating per door placard.
Think about it. If we are using a 3500 DRW truck with a 12000 GVWR and are going to haul commercial with a trailer we are required to tag the combination (truck/trailer) for the trucks 12000 GVWR and the trailers 16000 GVWR. Add those together (28000 lb) will be what you are tagged to haul. GVWR comes from the trucks door tag and the trailers GVWR comes from its placard. To balance the load on the truck we go to FAWR/RAWR which is on the door tag. Both are required by FMCSA. The regs are there and they have to be dug out and the most important part is finding how they are interpeted and enforced.
JIM
JIM
"good judgment comes from experience, and a lot of that comes from bad judgment" ............ Will Rogers
'03 2500 QC Dodge/Cummins HO 3.73 6 speed manual Jacobs Westach
'97 Park Avanue 28' 5er 11200 two slides
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