ffrnemtp
Brooksville, FL
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Joined: 03/24/2004
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Thanks for pointing out our "financial reality." I put $77 worth of fuel in my two Seadoos last night--it probably won't last through the weekend!!!
Doug & Lorri
2004 F-250 XLT 6.0L PSD SC SB FX4 DiabloSport Predator
2004 30' Thor Chateau TT with Reese HP Dual Cam
2004 Seadoos GTX 4-TEC Supercharged & GTI LE RFI
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ArkyHunter
Van Buren,AR
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Joined: 07/21/2002
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Fuel .15 to .20 per gallon cheaper. 12-14 mpg towing,22-24 mpg not towing. Good enough reasons for me! And I said I'd never own a diesel!
2003 Ram Quadcab,5.9CTD
2001 Wildwood 26bh
1994 HD Heritage Nostalgia
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PSDExcursion
Millstone NJ
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In the real world I have yet to see any gas engined truck tow a TT with the same ease as a diesel with the HP being equal. Even on the flats with a high frontal area (TT) the diesel will stay in OD with power and good fuel mileage while the gasser will drop out of OD and have bad fuel mileage. When looking for a tow vehicle I look at the torque first since my 2000 Excursion only was rated at 235HP but 500 ft lbs of torque @1600 rpm and towed my 41 ft TT like it wasn't even there. Try towing a 41 ft TT with a 235HP gasser.
2002 Chevy Express 3500 8.1 155" WB passenger van
41 Ft 2003 Thor Citation 41-ZBSR TT w/ Hensley Arrow
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BertP
Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
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Joined: 11/07/2003
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I think that Joe underlned the problems associated with any discussion in the topic of this thread when he said "...any gas engined truck tow a TT with the same ease as a diesel...". We are dealing with very subjective material. We can discuss the relative merits of one engine type vs another and be very accurate in our technical analysis and then go out and buy something else for other reasons. In the case of Joe's post, what does "with the same ease" mean? If both engines can generate the same amount of power, they will tow the same load with eactly the same "ease". You would not be taxing one engine more than the other. Would one be revving higher than the other? Yes. But, that does not mean that it is working harder. It is just designed to work in a different rpm range.
Another word we have a problem with is "better". If I were to ask "Which truck is a better TV: a CTD engined Ram or a Hemi powered Ram?" you would undoubtedly get an overwhelming response in favor of the CTD. But, I test drove a 2500 QC CTD that could not legally tow my 5er. A Hemi engined version of exactly the same truck can. Therefore, the Hemi engined truck is a better TV in this case. Better is a very subjective word that can have many different meanings depending on the situation in which it is used. It can refer to brand, engine type, payload capacity, transmissions available or even to color available. You have to identify what your requirements are and select the appropriate truck from there. To do anything else is to end up, IMHO, with a lesser vehicle than you could have.
To address millerliteliker's comment about fuel mileage, to me it is very important. There is a financial issue, to be sure, but just as important is the fact that you have a finite amount of fuel on board your truck. In the case of a GM truck, that is 26 gallons. At 8 mpg, that is 208 miles to bone dry. At 12 mpg that's 312. That's quite a difference. And, that makes quite a difference in the towing experience as well because you don't have to be as concerned about where the next refuelling point is.
Bert
* This post was
edited 06/24/04 12:29pm by BertP *
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PSDExcursion
Millstone NJ
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Quote:In the case of Joe's post, what does "with the same ease" mean? If both engines can generate the same amount of power, they will tow the same load with eactly the same "ease". You would not be taxing one engine more than the other. Would one be revving higher than the other? Yes. But, that does not mean that it is working harder. It is just designed to work in a different rpm range.
Hmmm, I think I am chasing my tail here. Do you think the 255HP 5.4 V8 (350Tq @2500)would tow my 41 ft TT (20,000lb GCWR)with greater ease than the 235HP 7.3 PSD (500Tq @1600) since it has 20 more HP?
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BertP
Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
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Quote:Hmmm, I think I am chasing my tail here. Do you think the 255HP 5.4 V8 (350Tq @2500)would tow my 41 ft TT (20,000lb GCWR)with greater ease than the 235HP 7.3 PSD (500Tq @1600) since it has 20 more HP?
Again, how do you define "ease"? If you define it as an engine using a lower percentage of its available power, then yes. For a given speed at a given weight on a given grade, you will need a certain amount of HP. 200 HP is 78% of the 255 HP engine's output and 85% of the 235 HP engine's output. So, the 235 HP engine would be working harder than the 255 HP engine.
Bert
* This post was
edited 06/24/04 03:09pm by BertP *
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millerliteliker
Longview, TX
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Joined: 12/15/2003
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Quote:
To address millerliteliker's comment about fuel mileage, to me it is very important. There is a financial issue, to be sure, but just as important is the fact that you have a finite amount of fuel on board your truck. In the case of a GM truck, that is 26 gallons. At 8 mpg, that is 208 miles to bone dry. At 12 mpg that's 312. That's quite a difference. And, that makes quite a difference in the towing experience as well because you don't have to be as concerned about where the next refuelling point is.
Bert
Very good point about the size of the fuel tank on the GM trucks. That is one major gripe I have with my truck - the fuel tank is rediculously small. The new Ford F150 is available with a 35 GALLON FUEL TANK! What was GM thinking? The only thing worse is the "scary face" look of the front grille of the 2003- Chevy.
2009 Chevrolet 3500HD DA LTZ DRW 4X4 Crew Cab
2005 GMC 2500HD DA SLT Crew Cab
2004 Cedar Creek 32BHBS
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PapawFor2
Az
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Joined: 09/19/2002
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Empty in town mileage: 18.5 vs 11
Towing mileage - no hills or headwind: 16 @ 72mph vs 9 @ 62mph
Towing eng temp - no hills or headwind: 185 vs 210 degrees(100 deg "dry" heat)
Towing mileage - hills and/or headwind: 13-14.5 @ 72mph vs 5.5-7.5 @55-60 mph
Towing eng temp - hills and/or headwind: 190(a/c on) vs 225 (a/c often off)
Before the diesel when I arrived at a destination, say 3-4 hours away, I was exhausted. I attribute it to mental wear & tear of a truck working a driver. I was always making sure I gained speed to climb an upcoming grade, watch my tach when I downshifted to second gear to continue momentum, and keep one eyeball glued to the eng temp gauge turning the a/c off when/where necessary. Now this driver works the truck. I simply aim, set the cruise & go. I arrive at the destination totally relaxed.
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PSDExcursion
Millstone NJ
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Quote:So, the 235 HP engine would be working harder than the 255 HP engine.
So you are saying a 2000 7.3 PSD Excursion will be working harder than a 5.4 V8 Excursion to tow 20,000 lb GCWR . I wonder why Ford doesn't think so.
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Jason S
Port Orchard, WA
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Joined: 06/24/2004
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FIRST I WILL APOLOGIZE FOR THE SUPERLONG POST GUESS I HAVE A COUPLE OF OPINIONS HERE.
I was enchanted with the idea of buying a diesel for years after driving a gas truck towing a boat. I am less enchanted now that I own one I recently bought an 04 6.0 PSD. I love this truck but the diesel does have some other draw backs others have not mentioned here, and I did not know about some of this prior to buying a truck. Like I said I own one and I am sure I will never go back to gas but there is a place for both. I bought mine because I like to own a vehicle for a long, long time. The truck I traded in on this one was a 87 F-250 with a 300CI 6CY in it. It had 310,000 miles and the only thing I every did was all the routine stuff like oil, plugs, wires, filters called for in the owners manual and even had the original clutch in the 4 speed with a granny gear. I do not abuse a vehicle but I do treat them like a truck and use it. This vehicle is also my everyday driver.
1. Maintenance costs seem to be higher over the life of the vehicle. Almost 15 QT of oil per change, same interval. New air filter for my truck (every 15K) $100. Fuel Filters every 15K (two of them) also pricey. I think over the life of a vehical with the added almost $6000 option of the vehical the costs are close with the way the fuel prices seem to be flucuating it will work out to be about a wash for 100K miles because of some of the other maintenance not on a gas motor. Like the other guy above said I think when we spend this money and want to play gas milage and maintenance is not as much of a concern
2. Sitting in traffic, hot weather, running A/C when was the last time you could smell your gas motor? The new trucks are great as far as keeping the smell down BUT it is still there in a couple different situations where you can distinctly notice the smell. Some people like my wife are sensitive to the smell of the diesel fumes it will make her sick. So now I just turn it off and roll down the windows when sitting still. Also while fueling up diesel stinks in raw form way more than gas and is more corrosive (will eat blacktop in your drivway if you drain your fuel filter on it).
3. Diesels are also weird as to little things like draining the water out of your fuel filters. I wish someone would have explained this to me before I got a bad tank of gas and had to figure it out by calling roadside assistance at 4:15 in the morning on a 1 hour drive to go fishing. They do have little nuances. This is my dealers fault in my opinion, salesman didn't know jack about diesels other than he was going to make a heck of a commision.
4. Quiet as the are all three you still have to turn them off in drive throughs sometimes to be heard. Can be annoying to others in campgrounds or your neibors if you have them when you are getting up real early to go fishing or hunting. Does not bug me at all.
5. When was the last time you had to plug your gas motor into 120V AC in the winter? That will add to the electric bill for those of you out there figuring out cost comparasons and in cold climates. Plus mine is kind of cranky and a lot louder when driven cold so I have to let it warm up a little prior to leaving the driveway. Never had that happen with a gas motor. It also takes a lot longer for my deisel to get up to temp and start kicking out heat from the heater. In the winter in PA my Dad covers a portion of his grill to keep the truck warmer. Another diesel nuance. Not so in a gas motor.
6. With the weight a deisel adds to the truck my 1 ton (CC) has about the same cargo capacity as a 3/4 ton (RC) gas motor you lose in the GVWR if you actually go weigh your truck. This is a concern. Less cargo capacity means you may have to go to a bigger truck or a smaller bed/cab to be able to meet the rules. Therefor you are again spending more money on the diesel that outweighs those gas consumption advantages. It also affects the GCVWR I know the Fords are rated to tow a 13,300 lb trailer but my truck wieghs 7,200 lbs therefor I can only tow a 12,800 trailer if no one is in my truck with me. Gear and additional passengers would drop it even more. Then ther is the King Pin weight to be added to the GVWR so instead of that 3/4 ton you may have to go to a 1 ton. To be honest I don't know what a gas truck of the same size as mine weighs but I do know it is less and therefor has the most capacity. The 1 ton F-350 Regular Cab with the 5.4 can carry almost double what mine (Crew Cab) can ratings wise, I looked at this and am driving a 1 ton when I started out looking at 3/4 tons for a camper.
7. When was the last time you had to wait for your glow plug light to go out on a gas truck? Another diesel nuance.
All in all I like my truck and am very happy with the purchase. No one who spends 45K on a truck is going to get on here and say they made a mistake so you wind up with opinions that are strong to what the owner is driving or they would get rid of it. Gas engine vs diesel I don't think now adays you can go wrong either for a lot of these new trucks. The big three all make great products and have figured out people are using these things for more than just hauling. I bought it because I prefered the way the power comes on under a load on a diesel. It is there from the start without revving the motor hard or high. I know through engineering duty cycles are what wear on equipment. I think the duty cycle is less stressfull on a deisel motor. Take a case in poin the 300CI 6CY from about that had a very low duty cycle due to being an inline and low revving those engine all lasted a long long time. Pulling away from a stop light with a trailer the diesel felt lots better under a load. When I test drove all vehicals I asked to tow a car trailer with my wifes car on it (my trailer and car) only one dealer would not let me needless to say I went elsewhere. I drove all three brands in both gas and diesel. I settled on the ford due to the size of the back seat over the Dodge and Chevy and the diesel for the power over what the gas motors had to offer. I will say the 8.1 L GM motor felt great pulling and unloaded but it does get a third of what I am getting gas milage for most of my daily driving.
I think for someone who wants to just get in a drive a vehicle and not worry about maintenance as much gas is much better. No offense to those out there I might offend but a lot of people don't change there oil regularly let alone do the other maintanance required by the owners manual and a diesel is not for those people.
By the way who ever it was with the 5.7 Vortech I think you would get a shock at the stop light by the diesel I know I can out accelerate a 6L chevy my buddies truck is smaller than mine and not near as quick. 2500HD SB with the 6L gas and 4.10 gears versus my 350 CC LB 6L TD 3.73 gears this is unloaded too. We informally raced and I pulled away from him up untill about 70 MPH and he started gaining. I also stomped a Hemi while we were both getting on an on ramp with our boats and my boat was bigger than his, that was from a rolling start. He initially got away a little on me till my turbo spooled up and I blew by him. He stopped me to ask me how much power my truck had when we got off of the highway because he was impressed with it, granted this was loaded.
* This post was
edited 06/24/04 10:45pm by Jason S *
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