BertP
Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
Senior Member
Joined: 11/07/2003
View Profile
|
Zedman,
I have never said that torque is nothing. The closest I came to that kind of statement is when I said that torque by itself is almost meaningless. To say that a particular powerplant generates 500 lb ft of torque means almost nothing. Unless you have an rpm reference for that, it is impossible to say how much work that powerplant can accomplish. Add the rpm component, and we now can determine exactly what that powerplant is capable of since we can now calculate HP.
Try reading the "Out of power on hill? what happens?" here, especially the last few posts, and you may change your mind. We have an example of one engine producing 1.575 BILLION lbs.ft of torque and one producing 1 lb ft of torque devlivering exactly the same amount of power to the rear axle. How can that be? Because they are both developing the same amount of HP: 300!!.
You may not like what I post, Zedman, and you may even intuitively feel that my statements are wrong, but noone has stepped up with information to prove what I stipulate is incorrect. The numbers are there. The formulas are there. Physics does not lie. If you truly feel that I am wrong, please feel free to post any information you have that supports your position.
And, no, I am not trolling. I am presenting information as I see it. If someone can prove me wrong, please do so. I would be happy to read your post.
As far as the comparison with the tank engine, I must disagree. While it is true that we will probably never see a pickup with such an engine (I would never say "never" because someone undoubtedly will put one in their truck ![[emoticon]](http://www.coastresorts.com/sharedcontent/cfb/images/smile.gif "smile") ), it is a perfer example of the measurement of power and how torque and HP are interrelated. Another person (aquaduct) compared a Cobra engine and a Cat C12. Is that any more or less legitimate a comparison. At least the turbine can be installed in a pickup. The Cat engine weighs around 3000 lb!! But, both are legitimate in their own ways: They allow for a study of torque and HP.
Bert
* This post was
edited 07/12/04 12:46pm by BertP *
|
jlh1777
Manhattan, KS
New Member
Joined: 05/17/2004
View Profile
|
By the way who ever it was with the 5.7 Vortech I think you would get a shock at the stop light by the diesel I know I can out accelerate a 6L chevy my buddies truck is smaller than mine and not near as quick. 2500HD SB with the 6L gas and 4.10 gears versus my 350 CC LB 6L TD 3.73 gears this is unloaded too. We informally raced and I pulled away from him up untill about 70 MPH and he started gaining. I also stomped a Hemi while we were both getting on an on ramp with our boats and my boat was bigger than his, that was from a rolling start. He initially got away a little on me till my turbo spooled up and I blew by him. He stopped me to ask me how much power my truck had when we got off of the highway because he was impressed with it, granted this was loaded.[/quote]
Just the other night I had a guy driving a Duramax pull up to me at a stoplight. He had been revving his engine at me through the last couple of stoplights. The next stoplight we came to, he wanted me to roll down my window. When I did, he told me that he thought I was someone else. I said no problem, and told him that he had a nice truck. He replied by saying, "It's expensive too, and a hell of lot nicer than that piece of junk." He then resumed revving his engine.
To make a long story somewhat short, the light turned green and we both hit the gas. When I hit 50 and started slowing down for the next stoplight, the Duramax was about half a truck length behind mine (I could have kept pulling away from him, but seeing as how we were in a 30 mph zone, I thought it was time to slow down). When we got stopped, I rolled my window down and politely told him that he must have over payed for that truck if my "piece of junk" could beat him that bad. He did not say a word back to me.
Now had both the trucks been loaded down, I'm sure this would have been a MUCH different story.
By the way, I am a huge Duramax fan, and I'm not trying to bad mouth anyone. Whenever I get enough money, I fully intend to buy one. I just won't be racing anyone at stoplights, once I own one of my own.
Note: Due to invalid formatting, all formatting has been ignored.
1998 Chevy 1/2 ton Silverado
5.7L Vortech V8
23' 1996 Sun Lite Koala
|
SpoiledRotten
Central Mississippi
Senior Member
Joined: 06/14/2004
View Profile
 Offline
|
QUOTE:
"First TV was 96 GMC Z71 1/2 ton. Towing same trailer as listed below I averaged 8-9 mpg.
New TV (only 3,000 miles) with same trailer I get 11 mpg. From what I read this should increase.
So I get better MPG loaded/empty. I now have a 3/4 ton crew cab vs. 1/2 ton extended cab. And I have lots more power.
Also, the new diesels are quiet enough to satisfy most of our wives."
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Hey, my wife likes the sound of the powerful diesel. Maybe I have one in a million.
Just the 3 of us...SpoiledRotten, TotallyRotten, and ALittleRotten
2000 F-250 Lariat, CC
7.3 PSTD-Superchipped
2005 33RL2 New Vision - AKA "SpoiledRotten"
2000 Jeep Wrangler Sahara Edition
|
SpoiledRotten
Central Mississippi
Senior Member
Joined: 06/14/2004
View Profile
Offline
|
Been there, done that.
There have been many people who have indicated their preference for gassers, so this is not the cake walk you suggest. As someone else pointed out, gassers outsell diesels by an order of magnitude, so someone must prefer gassers over diesels.
Bert
Gassers outsale diesels because of that piece of paper they stick to the side window when it is sitting on the lot. They don't cost as much! No one is looking down the road when they look at the sticker price. They just see the lesser of the two prices and think that is the best deal. I'm certainly not cutting gassers in any way. I have my first summa diesel. Always had gassers before. I could not afford the oil burner before. But I like the power, the size, the sound, and the amount when I go to the pump.
Enjoy your gasser. You are the only one you have to make happy with it.
BTW...my summa diesel means it is summa mine, summa da banks!
|
sack1
Kent, WA
Senior Member
Joined: 08/16/2002
View Profile
Offline
|
I have to say I hear the chest beating again.
Let me say this, if I have more than enough torque (and HP) to more than get the job done then please explain to me why I should have spent the extra dough on a diesel? Anyone?
I'm certainly not going to recoup the initial extra $$ upfront on a diesel in fuel savings anytime soon.
I'm still hearing the old "gassers are all about HP and diesels are all about torque" bit. That's quite old and very incorrect. Both produce torque (obviously) but mostly because the gas engine's powerband usually broader it develops more HP. That doesn't mean there is no torque, give me a break.
I think it's way past due to put this thread to rest as the mud slinging really isn't saying anything worthwhile.
'03 Chevy 2500HD 4x4, LT, Ext. cab, LB
8.1/Allison, 4.10
'03 32' 2955 Montana 5er
XM Radio/OnStar
Valley Hitch
Honda EU1000i
1984 VF700F Interceptor
|
|
|
sack1
Kent, WA
Senior Member
Joined: 08/16/2002
View Profile
Offline
|
two4oneprice,
We didn't buy a diesel because we didn't want one. How's that? Do you really feel people only buy what's cheap? If so, how do you explain yourself or anyone else who bought a diesel?
I don't know what the sales numbers are in the HD/SD trucks out there. But most trucks sold are the 150/1500 series that do not have a diesel option and are much cheaper to buy. Do you suppose that's why they outsell the HD trucks? They also tend to ride better than the HD trucks. Can you blame most people for not wanting/needing to spend the extra $$ and get a smoother riding truck also? So for their needs they get the truck they want and get mileage equal to what a diesel would return.
|
alaska511
Southcentral Alaska
Senior Member
Joined: 05/15/2004
View Profile
Offline
|
Quote:I think it's way past due to put this thread to rest as the mud slinging really isn't saying anything worthwhile.
Amen sack1, we are happy with our gassers because they are what we wanted, I just don't get it, I am not stupid, as I have said I know what a diesel can do, trust me.When I am retired and on the road between Alaska and Montana all of the time I will hopefully be in a 4500 series TopKick with a diesel. Until then, putting 4000 miles a year on at most fully loaded, 5000 as a daily driver, the gasser is for me. It does everything I need it to, it sounds great, very smooth, lots of power wether diesel lovers believe me or not, and did I mention it's been paid for a long time ago? ![[emoticon]](http://www.coastresorts.com/sharedcontent/cfb/images/awink.gif "awink")
Somebody put this thing to rest, it is obviously pointless...
2017 Wildcat Maxx 295
2015 Silverado LTZ Duramax/Allison
|
Sagebrush
Jacksonville AL
Senior Member
Joined: 02/05/2003
View Profile
Good Sam RV Club Member
Offline
|
It's best to get what you need huh? Thats why I have both. The diesel dually never runs empty, so the mpg's of the diesel really help. Its hard to tell how a diesel compares to a gasoline truck when their empty right of the dealers lot.
I pull 5K to 14K with mine. In the spring I pull a flat bed for the farm. The gas trucks got the job done, just not as well. I still have two. Towing, I get 11 to 13 mpg running in the hills. Gass gets me about 5 to 8 mpg pulling lighter loads. My gas trucks average 11 mpg overall. Diesel is in the high 13's. I work my trucks hard. The main reason for me buying a diesel is the life of the truck. I have yet to get over a 100K on a gas truck that still runs like a year old truck. I've been very impressed by diesels with over 200K still pulling hard with no problems. I try to keep them 10 years which will put my tow rig well over 160K by then, most will be tow miles. Diesel is for me.
|
msredneck
Quitman,MS,USA
Full Member
Joined: 09/09/2003
View Profile
Offline
|
Please read these two very informative articles;
http://www.pickuptruck.com/html/stories/2003shootout/page1.html
http://www.pickuptruck.com/html/2003/ford/superduty/first_drive/page1.html
Please pay special attention to the second article toward the very end when the ford engineer asked the driver to shift to reverse traveling at 60 mph.
Personally I would not consider anything but a diesel to do what we do and I would buy another Ford.
2003 Ford F250 Lariat,4x4,CC,6.0 L,Auto,3.73 Rear
2004 Dutchmen Classic 31RL-H5
"Drinking out of my saucer....cause my cup is running over"
|
Jason S
Port Orchard, WA
Senior Member
Joined: 06/24/2004
View Profile
|
Home Depot #20 asked about people who had diesels who came from gas earlier and will go back to gas. I have one as stated earlier and I will say when I get my next truck I will go back to a gasser. But I drive mine everyday and use it for more than just towing. I think the disadvantages of a diesel I stated earlier outweigh the advantage it has towing. Sure diesels have great torque and I do love this truck BUT I don't like the smell, noise, additional maintenance, plugging it in winter time etc... (I have a 04 F-350 PSD CC LB 4X4 <-Everyday driver/haul 10K boat)
As the the HP -vs- Torque continuing saga that is just about beat to death above. HP is a function of torque over time as stated earlier. But for a given RPM torque is the amount of rotational force need to hold the object (ie crankshaft) at that speed. That is important to us haulers because torque is what maintains speed for a given throttle position driving down the road. HP is what accelerates the vehical the rotational forces acting over a time period, bring the engine up through the RPM band and accelerating. So HP is important to getting our vehicals moving but torque keeps them moving. I personally would like to have a higher torque value at a usable RPM to maintain speed over passes. A high HP gas motor typically has a high torque value (for example the GM 8.1) but it is a lot higher in the RPM range than a diesel RPM range. All things being equal a motor with a decent HP value and a flat torque curve will tow the best. It will have the power to pull away from a light and hold a given speed. There is a reason all of these over the road trucks are diesel vice gas, they all have relitivly low HP values given they are 80000# GVW but all have huge torque numbers. It is well stated people should buy what suits thier driving style and moreimportantly NEEDS.
|
|
|
|
