valhalla360
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Keep in mind there are two capacities to consider:
- Maximum instantaneous output...ie: watts.
- Maximum total output....ie: kilowatt hours.
The studies showing only a small percentage increase presume, most charging will be late night when there is excess instantaneous output available.
Maximum total output will rise greatly if we go heavy into EVs. Why does it matter, even though the plants can put out the power, it still takes fuel.
For hydro plants, water in the reservoir is fuel. In remote areas of Canada, this may not be a big deal but as can be seen in the US SW, you can't simply run hyrdo power at max output all the time and not eventually pay the price.
So the problem of peak instantaneous output can be solved to a degree with timing but the problem of overall output is trickier.
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Lantley
Ellicott City, Maryland
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valhalla360 wrote:map40 wrote:Without the complicated mechanics and the short range of a plug in hybrid (not a hybrid). Might sound similar, but it is a world of difference.
Always remember, an ICE is 30% efficient on converting fuel into motion. Parasitic loads, brakes converting kinetic energy into heat, they are all waste. An EV is 95% efficient converting power into motion.
As I said, they are a great alternative for the right use, but they won't replace all ICEs uses. And Trucks are the most difficult use for EV applications.
95% efficient is if you only look at the electricity arriving at the motor. Once you add conversion to and from the battery, transport over the grid, burning coal at the power plant, etc...even with the power used to drill, transport and refine oil, it's no longer the slam dunk in terms of efficiency.
Did you add the same factors to the ICE efficiency? Did you consider the efficiency of drilling for oil, refining raw crude and transporting it from the middle east? Since there is no grid the fuel needs to be trucked to each gas station.
Why confuse the efficiency equation?
EV are simply way more efficient, with way fewer moving parts.
Its the efficiency that is at the core of the EV revolution.
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map40
Florida
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valhalla360 wrote:map40 wrote:Without the complicated mechanics and the short range of a plug in hybrid (not a hybrid). Might sound similar, but it is a world of difference.
Always remember, an ICE is 30% efficient on converting fuel into motion. Parasitic loads, brakes converting kinetic energy into heat, they are all waste. An EV is 95% efficient converting power into motion.
As I said, they are a great alternative for the right use, but they won't replace all ICEs uses. And Trucks are the most difficult use for EV applications.
95% efficient is if you only look at the electricity arriving at the motor. Once you add conversion to and from the battery, transport over the grid, burning coal at the power plant, etc...even with the power used to drill, transport and refine oil, it's no longer the slam dunk in terms of efficiency.
In the same analogy, when you look into the efficiency of an ICE and include the refinery, transport, drilling, barreling, etc, the ICE drops below 5%. There is no merit in arguing that EVs are 3 times more efficient, you are picking a lousy argument that will not change the conclusion: For the right aplications, EVs are better than ICEs. Not all cases, just some.
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map40
Florida
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valhalla360 wrote:map40 wrote:There are a many reports in favor as there are against them. If what the reports against it say is true, why are all automakers going into it? NO AUTOMAKER WOULD GO INTO EVS IF THE REAL CASE WAS THAT BAD. Will it replace ICEs? NO WAY, THE TECHNOLOGY IN ITS CURRENT PATH CAN'T. When we learn to evaluate things objectively with no preconceptions or politics we will understand that EVs are just a variant type of vehicle that thanks to the advance of technology is now getting into the masker after 140 of being invented (remember, EVs are older than ICEs).
If the govt throws enough money or enough penalties at a company, it will distort the market and companies will do silly things...at least for a while. So hard to evaluate without preconceptions or politics when it's a huge driver at the moment and unlikely ever to completely go away.
That is valid when you think about an emmision regulation, adding a light to the quarter pannel or a CMBL. It is not valid when you talk about detroying the busines model by converting a large amount of the production to a completelly different power source. I know it, that was my job...
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map40
Florida
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pianotuna wrote:map40,
A regular gas station costs between 250k and 2 million.
According to the U.S. Department of Energy, 80 percent of EV charging happens at home. That may most often be level 2 charging which doesn't require any upgrades to the existing grid.
https://www.canarymedia.com/articles/ev-........w-light-on-how-people-charge-evs-at-home
As of summer 2022, Tesla had more than 1,400 Supercharger stations in the United States, with a total of more than 7,000 chargers.
As a retired person, aged 74, my vehicle use is quite low--a level one charger would more than meet my needs. I'd probably charge to only 85% to extend the cycle life. Likely I'd spend more energy on battery heating than on actual travel--that is until a Lithium Titinate chemistry is an option.
The economics of my own situation most probably will preclude getting an EV. I have a 2013 Hyundai Elantra with just 76000 kilometres with a motor where the "top" was rebuilt 5000 kilometres ago. I will drive it into the ground. Or it may be above ground longer than me.
I understand the cost of a gas station, is significantly less than an electric station. 10 chargers at $250k is $2.5M minimun, to $5M if you equip with better chargers.
80% of the people charge at home because we, the EVrs, bought it for that convenience. But to grow will mean to require electric charging stations, as the next target segment won't be the ideal.
I agree with you about driving that car into the ground for your use, and so is the case of a lot of people. Did you really have to rebuild the top of the engine at 70K Km? That sucks! Did the warranty cover it?
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way2roll
Wilmington NC
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map40 wrote:valhalla360 wrote:map40 wrote:Without the complicated mechanics and the short range of a plug in hybrid (not a hybrid). Might sound similar, but it is a world of difference.
Always remember, an ICE is 30% efficient on converting fuel into motion. Parasitic loads, brakes converting kinetic energy into heat, they are all waste. An EV is 95% efficient converting power into motion.
As I said, they are a great alternative for the right use, but they won't replace all ICEs uses. And Trucks are the most difficult use for EV applications.
95% efficient is if you only look at the electricity arriving at the motor. Once you add conversion to and from the battery, transport over the grid, burning coal at the power plant, etc...even with the power used to drill, transport and refine oil, it's no longer the slam dunk in terms of efficiency.
In the same analogy, when you look into the efficiency of an ICE and include the refinery, transport, drilling, barreling, etc, the ICE drops below 5%. There is no merit in arguing that EVs are 3 times more efficient, you are picking a lousy argument that will not change the conclusion: For the right aplications, EVs are better than ICEs. Not all cases, just some.
Because EV's don't require mining, packing, transport etc right?
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valhalla360
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map40 wrote:valhalla360 wrote:map40 wrote:Without the complicated mechanics and the short range of a plug in hybrid (not a hybrid). Might sound similar, but it is a world of difference.
Always remember, an ICE is 30% efficient on converting fuel into motion. Parasitic loads, brakes converting kinetic energy into heat, they are all waste. An EV is 95% efficient converting power into motion.
As I said, they are a great alternative for the right use, but they won't replace all ICEs uses. And Trucks are the most difficult use for EV applications.
95% efficient is if you only look at the electricity arriving at the motor. Once you add conversion to and from the battery, transport over the grid, burning coal at the power plant, etc...even with the power used to drill, transport and refine oil, it's no longer the slam dunk in terms of efficiency.
In the same analogy, when you look into the efficiency of an ICE and include the refinery, transport, drilling, barreling, etc, the ICE drops below 5%. There is no merit in arguing that EVs are 3 times more efficient, you are picking a lousy argument that will not change the conclusion: For the right aplications, EVs are better than ICEs. Not all cases, just some.
Electric might still win out but no, Ground to tank does not use 85% (30% to 5%) of the energy in a gallon of gas.
The gap in efficiency, narrows drastically when you go source to end use.
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BCSnob
Middletown, MD
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Comparison of the Overall Energy Efficiency for Internal Combustion Engine Vehicles and Electric Vehicles
Environmental and Climate Technologies 2020, vol. 24, no. 1, pp. 669–680
link
Well to wheels efficiency:
Gasoline ICEV: 12%-22%
Diesel ICEV: 25%-37%
100% Coal fired power BEV: 13%-27%
100% Natural Gas fired power BEV: 13%-31%
100% Commercial Wind/PV BEV: 39%-67%
Onsite (not grid supplied) PV BEV: 42%-72%
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map40
Florida
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way2roll wrote:map40 wrote:valhalla360 wrote:map40 wrote:Without the complicated mechanics and the short range of a plug in hybrid (not a hybrid). Might sound similar, but it is a world of difference.
Always remember, an ICE is 30% efficient on converting fuel into motion. Parasitic loads, brakes converting kinetic energy into heat, they are all waste. An EV is 95% efficient converting power into motion.
As I said, they are a great alternative for the right use, but they won't replace all ICEs uses. And Trucks are the most difficult use for EV applications.
95% efficient is if you only look at the electricity arriving at the motor. Once you add conversion to and from the battery, transport over the grid, burning coal at the power plant, etc...even with the power used to drill, transport and refine oil, it's no longer the slam dunk in terms of efficiency.
In the same analogy, when you look into the efficiency of an ICE and include the refinery, transport, drilling, barreling, etc, the ICE drops below 5%. There is no merit in arguing that EVs are 3 times more efficient, you are picking a lousy argument that will not change the conclusion: For the right aplications, EVs are better than ICEs. Not all cases, just some.
Because EV's don't require mining, packing, transport etc right?
They both require a lot of resources, but the point is simple: for the right application EVs are vastly superiors to ICEs, just like Diesel engines are better than gasoline engines for some aplications. You are both complaining a point that is useless. EVs are built for efficiency and they are good at it. ICEs are built for convenience from 100 years ago, and although we keep improving them, there are applications for which the EV are going to be better than ICEs. And in those cases, you can get all the advantage of that 95% efficiency. If you want to make it more complex to fit your narrative or your political views, I have neither and I don't care for them, I just care for numbers at the end of the day.
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map40
Florida
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valhalla360 wrote:map40 wrote:valhalla360 wrote:map40 wrote:Without the complicated mechanics and the short range of a plug in hybrid (not a hybrid). Might sound similar, but it is a world of difference.
Always remember, an ICE is 30% efficient on converting fuel into motion. Parasitic loads, brakes converting kinetic energy into heat, they are all waste. An EV is 95% efficient converting power into motion.
As I said, they are a great alternative for the right use, but they won't replace all ICEs uses. And Trucks are the most difficult use for EV applications.
95% efficient is if you only look at the electricity arriving at the motor. Once you add conversion to and from the battery, transport over the grid, burning coal at the power plant, etc...even with the power used to drill, transport and refine oil, it's no longer the slam dunk in terms of efficiency.
In the same analogy, when you look into the efficiency of an ICE and include the refinery, transport, drilling, barreling, etc, the ICE drops below 5%. There is no merit in arguing that EVs are 3 times more efficient, you are picking a lousy argument that will not change the conclusion: For the right aplications, EVs are better than ICEs. Not all cases, just some.
Electric might still win out but no, Ground to tank does not use 85% (30% to 5%) of the energy in a gallon of gas.
The gap in efficiency, narrows drastically when you go source to end use.
You are right, compunding effect is not 5%, is more like 3.5% at best. If you count kerosene, diesel, all gasoline grades, oil, sludge, and the rest.
But again, I don't care about that because for the applications I need gas or diesel I don't stop to think where did the gas come from, or where did the electricity com from. I only care about money, and more importantly, my money. And if I can save money and drive a car that puts a smile on my face because it takes off like a bullet, well, great for me!
I undestand you want to make a point for you views, but we are just lokking and comparing things without bringing political views or imposible calculations. An EV recovers as much energy as possible in city traffic, an ICE wastes a ton of energy in city traffic. This is by desing. By the same design, EVs are not good for heavy load and long distances, ICEs are much better. See? Easy...
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