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SoundGuy

S Ontario

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Posted: 12/07/17 09:23am Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

Bols2DawaLL wrote:

Soundguy , just following along here but you've mentioned to me in the past that my 2011 6 cyl. (290 h.p V6 ) Grand Cherokee would not be a good tow vehicle for this TT . Just curious but what would make the Ridgeline a better choice ?


I don't know that it would, Last Train with his experience in towing his own 192RBS with his Ridgeline would probably be better able to address this. Truthfully, I'm conflicted as I'm no different than anyone else and would tow with a V6 if I honestly believed it would work satisfactorily. We've just returned from a trip to visit rels Down Under where virtually everyone tows with a normally aspirated V6 gasser or small diesel, most often without weight distribution or add on sway control. Travel trailers, or caravans they're called there, are largely 19' to 23' at most, and very few have slides. In fact, in populated areas along the coast one wouldn't want a 1/2 ton truck as the roadways are just too narrow, the parking lots tight, as are many of the caravan parks. I have countless videos and pics of folks towing trailers the size of a 192RBS so when there I visited both a dealer and went to an RV show to get a better answer. There was none - they just do it simply because there is no other choice, other than limiting the length & weight of the trailer itself. I saw but one 25 footer with a slide at the RV show and it was $135,000, anything else was no more than 23' or it was an off road (outback) style which in most cases would also be towed with a V6 off road vehicle of some description. We here in N America are committed to large vehicles, 1/2 ton and greater, for towing ... the question is how does the rest of the world get along with less? I've yet to come up with that answer. [emoticon]

SoundGuy

S Ontario

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Posted: 12/07/17 10:01am Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

While Down Under recently I went to an outdoor RV show with my BIL and a friend, both of whom are in the market for a new camper. BIL currently tows what we'd call a high wall popup with his 2017 3.6L V6 Pathfinder but is really interested in moving up to a "caravan", what we'd call a relatively small couple's travel trailer similar to my Coachmen Freedom Express 192RBS. While at the show we went through an Avan Frances he's interested in, a single axle model but very similar to the 192RBS in terms of amenities, slightly lighter without a slide but about the same length. Although I don't personally care for the new European look many Australian manufacturers are now adopting the overall fit & finish of just about everything I saw was demonstrably better than what we have here in N America. Cost for sure is higher, this particular model being about $50,000 AUD ($37,600 USD), but to be fair this is the tow away price, including everything, even the first year's insurance. If he buys this unit he fully intends to tow it with his Pathfinder which is similar in ability to any other gas aspirated V6 sold in that country. When speaking with various dealers not one of them saw the need for anything larger, such as a 1/2 ton V8 truck, for towing any of these trailers on their lots. Clearly there must be a reason it works for them, I just haven't figured it out yet. [emoticon]

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Last Train

Texas

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Posted: 12/07/17 11:11am Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

SoundGuy wrote:

Thanks for your detailed reply. Now that there's just 2 of us I do from time to time give some thought as to whether I really need my Silverado vs a somewhat smaller, more fuel efficient vehicle like the Honda Ridgeline. My wife has an '06 Civic and with the usual regular maintenance required for any vehicle all we do is put gas in it (not much) and drive it - dead reliable. [emoticon] However, the question remains - what would I gain? Honda claims 26/19 mpg for the current generation of Ridgeline and if I could actually believe it that 25% improvement over my Silverado might in itself be sufficient justification, especially here in Canada where our fuel costs average 30% higher than in the US. Fuel cost when towing isn't my concern but rather the significant annual cost for fuel when not towing - thousands $$$$$ every year. [emoticon] I really like driving a 1/2 ton, the interior space it provides, and of course how easily it tows our 192RBS. [emoticon] However, your fuel mileage numbers tell me what I've always believed - your V6 Ridgeline is working a lot harder than my V8 Silverado pulling a 192RBS, despite the fact that some of that extra 5.3L GM engine grunt is being used to push along a much heavier vehicle. EPA numbers for the Ridgeline (not towing) are to me the main attraction but in the real world I question whether it really comes anywhere near close to those numbers. [emoticon]


Guys, we are dangerously close to hijacking the OP's thread, so Mods - perhaps if you want - maybe move this over to Tow Vehicles . . .

That said, your analysis is sort of what we've done re. fuel efficiency and how much of a driver that might be in changing vehicles. Keep in mind a couple of base line factors: (1) Your best comparison to mpg efficiency is to the current, "Gen 2" Ridgeline released beginning as a 2017 model - not my older version, "Gen 1" Ridgeline; the Gen 2 has even slightly more interior space than my truck, and mine even sits 5 adults comfortably; its drivetrain is improved with a 6-speed (vs. my 5-speed) and engine has increased its power by 30 hp (now 280) over mine and a very modest torque increase (only 15) to 262 lb/ft.; the AWD trims have a much improved torque vectoring system and still come with a transmission cooler and wiring harness ready to receive your choice of an electronic brake controller (we use a Tekonsha Primus on our truck). The Ridgeline Owners Club forum (ridgelineownersclub.com) shows lots of your fellow Canadians now own them. I haven't found anyone from up your way unhappy with the Ridgeline.

(2) And yes, to state the obvious, of course our V6 is going to "work a lot harder" than your V8. However, remember that the Ridgeline was designed to do this kind of work in a mid-size package. It's drivetrain (I'm talking about my Gen 1, 2011 model now) operates comfortably within its design limits. I set the cruise control to 60-61 mph and let the engineering and technology of the truck do its thing. Of course it will shift to adjust to the operating environment, but the mpgs we achieve with our truck are largely experienced under cruise control. But then again, there are other times that I will manually "feather" the throttle to better manage circumstances. With that said, I have tracked the towing experiences with a number of Gen 2 Ridgeline owners who tow similar loads as we do, and they experience about 3-4 mpg better than we do with our 2011. Is that significant enough to amortize the increased $$ to purchase a new Ridgeline? Well, now you get back to qualitative factors that focus on some of the unique features of the Ridgeline vs. traditional designs (whether other mid-size or 1/2 tons). How much are those worth to someone? Your call. I guess go test drive one and let us know what you think.

SoundGuy wrote:

The fact you're able to tow without weight distribution has me mystified as there's no way I could with my Silverado ... 625 lbs of gross tongue weight just unloads the truck's front steer axle far too much. [emoticon] I typically average ~ 13% gross tongue weight but in fact have tried everything I can to increase that just a bit more, the problem being that fully loaded fridge at the far rear of the trailer really counters my efforts. A full black tank on the way home also exacerbates the situation, 'though by that time the fridge contains far less so that does help. In your case, running just 10 to 11% gross tongue weight is awfully low, especially without the use of weight distribution. So - we have essentially the same trailer, typically averaging about the same gross weight (4600 to 4800 lbs) yet you're running significantly less gross tongue weight. Loading as I do I don't see any way I could run that little even if I wanted to and 2) if I did I have little doubt I'd be all over the road when towing at highway speed. I'm mystified. [emoticon]


I don't have a Ph.D. in Vehicle Dynamics, so all I can offer you is my own analysis that I've shared previously in other threads - plus my experience. Assuming that we are all rational people and want to have fun in this hobby while maintaining the highest in safety standards [emoticon] , I can just honestly tell you that our configuration has been as solid as can be when we camp with the weight ranges I've stated. Perhaps it is a combination of factors . . . though the Ridgeline has a uni-body design, our Gen 1 version has an extremely stiff and strong ladder frame with seven cross members that are welded to the truck's body. It just doesn't twist or torque when under a load. (The Gen 2 version's frame and body is even significantly stronger than mine, so that's the one you would probably seek as a comparison.) But if you don't take my word for it (not saying you don't - it's just always good to get all the objective evidence you can) - how about my friend who followed us last week in his Class C? We had a 288 mile run to Garner State Park with prevailing, modest crosswinds from the south at 12-14 mph. Kind of standard stuff here in Texas. Running westbound on I-10 between Houston and San Antonio in the midst of heavy semi traffic passing us and us passing others - plus the cars, SUVs and other trucks passing us at 70+mph - he rang me up from behind and said (unsolicited) "sure looks like your rig tracks really well; no wiggle or sway with all of this traffic going on." (That's almost an exact quote, but hey, it was last Wednesday and I can't remember what I had for breakfast this morning!)

Do I feel semis going by or by me passing them? Certainly, there is a very small sensation. And occasionally you will have a greater sensation depending on the aerodynamics of the passing truck. But I have absolutely never felt nervous, threatened, out of control nor that we are all going to die! [emoticon]

I will give you a caveat to this based on your comment about how you run toward home; i.e. with a full black tank. We do not run that way, but when I have had a lot of material in our black or gray tank while towing I can feel the difference. THAT is when a good WDH would solve that problem, but we just never have the need to travel that way with our style of camping. Some Ridgeline owners employ them and others do not. As always, there is a great debate on this topic. Our Gen 1 manual did not recommend the use of one since the truck was designed to tow well without a WDH, and "an improperly adjusted WDH . . ." can seriously affect braking and handling, etc, etc. etc. We have been totally fine without a WDH, but other Gen 1 owners wouldn't leave home without one! The Gen 2 manual does not have the same caution as my owner's manual, so again, some Ridgeline owners use one and others do not.

We test drove a 2017 Black Edition trim (tops in the US version), and the dealer offered me the opportunity to bring my trailer over and hitch it up for a test run. I didn't do it since we were not ready for a buying decision, but maybe that's the pathway for you. Head to a Honda dealer and tell them that towing behavior is the critical decision point and see what they say.

Meanwhile, next April we are headed to the Midwest (Illinois and perhaps eastward to Indiana and Ohio) to see friends and enjoy some of the historical sites in our nation's original Northwest Territory. So if we run over as far as eastern Ohio, why don't you drop down from Ontario and meet up with us at a park of your choice. I'll toss you the keys to our truck and let you go have a run where ever you want while doing a test tow! Might be fun to compare our 192 RBS rigs, anyhow. Maybe by then I will have made that 12V wiring run from the vent over our bed to the TV booster power so that I can put in a fan and pwm controller. If not, bring your tool box! [emoticon]

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2016 Coachmen Freedom Express 192RBS
2018 RAM 1500 Ecodiesel

Bols2DawaLL

SW. Ontario

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Joined: 08/24/2016

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Posted: 12/07/17 11:21am Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

[quote=SoundGuy] When speaking with various dealers not one of them saw the need for anything larger, such as a 1/2 ton V8 truck, for towing any of these trailers on their lots. Clearly there must be a reason it works for them, I just haven't figured it out yet.
Quote:






Well then , we'll just take our Jeep GC and move to Australia [emoticon]
I have heard that Auto/Truck manufacturers in North America keep vehicle caps and limits artificially low so people feel the need to buy more expensive trucks etc. as tow vehicles . That and our increasingly sue happy society sure answers some questions as to why we are different from the rest of the world .

SoundGuy

S Ontario

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Posted: 12/07/17 11:32am Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

Last Train wrote:

Guys, we are dangerously close to hijacking the OP's thread, so Mods - perhaps if you want - maybe move this over to Tow Vehicles . . .


Sorry LT, but I disagree completely. Yes, the OP asked about what we like / don't like about the Coachmen Freedom Express 192RBS but he also asked about towing it ... and as we all know there's no point in buying any trailer if it can't be safely towed. From the OP's original post ...

"Anyone have one? What do you like and dislike? Would you buy it again? How do you use it and what do you tow it with?"

This discussion is IMO right on the money and should not be moved. [emoticon]

mountainkowboy

Socal/NE Oregon

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Posted: 12/07/17 11:45am Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

Bols2DawaLL wrote:

Soundguy , just following along here but you've mentioned to me in the past that my 2011 6 cyl. (290 h.p V6 ) Grand Cherokee would not be a good tow vehicle for this TT . Just curious but what would make the Ridgeline a better choice ? Thanks


He is a doom and gloomer that believes you need twice the towing capacity to tow a TT. Not sure what your Jeep is rated to tow but 80% of towing ability seems to be the formula that most use. The 192 was designed to be towed by SUV's and midsize trucks and is within there towing abilities...PERIOD. There will be other D&G'rs that will also say that your jeep is only rated for a popup also as they have told me with my Ranger.


Chuck & Ruth with 4-legged Molly
2007 Tiffin Allegro 30DA
2011 Ford Ranger
1987 HD FLHTP


SoundGuy

S Ontario

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Posted: 12/07/17 11:58am Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

Bols2DawaLL wrote:

Soundguy , just following along here but you've mentioned to me in the past that my 2011 6 cyl. (290 h.p V6 ) Grand Cherokee would not be a good tow vehicle for this TT . Just curious but what would make the Ridgeline a better choice ?


mountainkowboy wrote:

He is a doom and gloomer that believes you need twice the towing capacity to tow a TT.


Clearly you have no idea what you're talking about as I've never made any claim that says "you need twice the towing capacity to tow a TT". This is a discussion forum - just because you may not agree with someone else's view doesn't grant you the right to attack and mis-characterize their intentions in posting. Read on, who knows, you may actually learn something. [emoticon]

drsteve

Michigan

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Posted: 12/07/17 07:05pm Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

mountainkowboy wrote:

Bols2DawaLL wrote:

Soundguy , just following along here but you've mentioned to me in the past that my 2011 6 cyl. (290 h.p V6 ) Grand Cherokee would not be a good tow vehicle for this TT . Just curious but what would make the Ridgeline a better choice ? Thanks


He is a doom and gloomer that believes you need twice the towing capacity to tow a TT. Not sure what your Jeep is rated to tow but 80% of towing ability seems to be the formula that most use. The 192 was designed to be towed by SUV's and midsize trucks and is within there towing abilities...PERIOD. There will be other D&G'rs that will also say that your jeep is only rated for a popup also as they have told me with my Ranger.


Nobody has told you your Ranger will only tow a popup, but several have offered their opinion that, based on their actual towing experience, you'll be pushing the Ranger's capabilities with that much trailer.

Don't be so defensive. People are offering their honest opinions and experiences. Isn't that what the forum is for?


2006 Silverado 1500HD Crew Cab 2WD 6.0L 3.73 8600 GVWR
2018 Coachmen Catalina Legacy Edition 223RBS
1991 Palomino Filly PUP

mountainkowboy

Socal/NE Oregon

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Posted: 12/07/17 08:28pm Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

drsteve wrote:



Nobody has told you your Ranger will only tow a popup, but several have offered their opinion that, based on their actual towing experience, you'll be pushing the Ranger's capabilities with that much trailer.

Don't be so defensive. People are offering their honest opinions and experiences. Isn't that what the forum is for?


There actual experience was with a vehicle that was almost a foot shorter wheelbase and a much more compliant suspension. Then got snarky when I didn't agree with them. But it is what it is, gotta take the good with the bad and learn to ignore what doesn't pertain to me. I've been towing with vehicles at the edge of the abilities all my life. I get that people aren't comfortable tow to there vehicles limits, but I've been doing it all my life for work and pleasure. I don't have ANY issues with it and I never said that the Ranger won't be working its arse off pulling that TT.

SoundGuy

S Ontario

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Posted: 12/09/17 12:57pm Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

TheHound wrote:

Curious, where would the changes from 2017 to 2018 be posted or would you need to contact a dealer? Wondering if they made some tweaks on those items you highlighted.


SoundGuy wrote:

I suspect any changes between '17 and '18 models are cosmetic - interior colours but more notably the use of white skirting & trim on the exterior rather than the traditional dark brown / black. Personally I'd rather see manufacturers put more effort into improvements that actually matter, such as proper tank support or upgrading the tires to Goodyear Endurance such as Jayco is now doing, and not just window dressing that they believe will increase sales. In any case, I'll be tossing a cover on mine on Sat so I'll try to remember to ask about any differences.


TheHound wrote:

OK, if you find out please let me know. And I completely agree about making changes that will improve safety and reliability vs adding some pretty colours.


So I installed my cover today and as promised took a look at 2017 / 2018 Coachmen Freedom Express models while at the dealership. Exterior graphics are a bit different, exterior trim & skirting is traditional dark brown / black on the 2017s but a startling white on the 2018s, both have LED lighting on the front nose cap. A 2017 Freedom Express can be seen on the right is this pic, 2018s have blue added to the graphics.

[image]

Dealer has two 2017 192RBS units, one was being prepped in the shop as it had been sold, the other was still on the lot and is this one.

[image]

The dealer is sold out of 2018 192RBS models and is awaiting more to be delivered so in the 2018 year I took a look at other models in the lineup. A 2018 204RD had a enclosed underbelly but did not have any external fresh water tank support ... not sure why as a 2018 257BHS beside it which also had an enclosed underbelly did have 2 external fresh water tank supports. The 2017 192RBS also had an enclosed underbelly and also did have external fresh water tank support braces, as shown is these two pics ...

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However, as can be seen these tank support braces are made of really thin metal and are bowed noticeably, no doubt because the trailer has gone through PDI and has had water added to the tank. The 2018 257BHS tank support braces were the same thickness steel but were not bowed so I'd presume this unit had not yet had water in the tank. The other thing I noticed is that while the fresh water tank on my 2014 192RBS is mounted above the axles these tank supports are well forward of the axles so I'd presume the fresh water tank is now mounted further forward on this model than it used to be. This tank support is an improvement but if I were buying one of these units I'd immediately replace those tank supports with much heavier steel, ones that won't bend when the tank is full of water. As for the enclosed underbelly I personally didn't care for it as it means you can't see anything except the gas lines which interestingly run along the underside of the Coroplast. Whether the water pump connects to the bottom of the fresh water tank as it should or still connects to the tank sidewall I can't say because it's hidden by that darned underbelly. Overall my 2014 holds up well against the new ones but I do like the 2017 because it has a full length queen bed, a vent over the main cabin (both of which my '14 doesn't have), the molded front cap, and the dark brown / black exterior trim & skirting which is the same on my '14. Sure don't care for the change to white trim & skirting on the 2018s but of course that's personal taste.


2012 Silverado 1500 Crew Cab
2014 Coachmen Freedom Express 192RBS
2003 Fleetwood Yuma * 2008 K-Z Spree 240BH-LX
2007 TrailCruiser C21RBH * 2000 Fleetwood Santa Fe
1998 Jayco 10UD * 1969 Coleman CT380

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