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thomasmnile wrote:
No one here debated the wisdom of calling the race after the failed GWC attempt. What was lame was NASCAR's attempt to justify it. Clearly Steve O'Donnell's defense was aimed at people that thought (and the video clearly showed) NASCAR sat on throwing the caution til the 5 and 2 crossed over the magical, mystical overtime line. The 'liquid' rules again. As far as time to run the race, oh well, I believe the Daytona 500 where Juan Pablo Montoya hit the track dryer took longer, between the fire and rain delays during the race.I believe the Daytona 500 where Juan Pablo Montoya hit the track dryer took longer, between the fire and rain delays during the race.
No one here debated the wisdom of calling the race after the failed GWC attempt. What was lame was NASCAR's attempt to justify it. Clearly Steve O'Donnell's defense was aimed at people that thought (and the video clearly showed) NASCAR sat on throwing the caution til the 5 and 2 crossed over the magical, mystical overtime line. The 'liquid' rules again. As far as time to run the race, oh well, I believe the Daytona 500 where Juan Pablo Montoya hit the track dryer took longer, between the fire and rain delays during the race.I believe the Daytona 500 where Juan Pablo Montoya hit the track dryer took longer, between the fire and rain delays during the race.
It was literally a few seconds before they threw the caution (like 4)
With all due respect, you do realize Daytona has lights and Indy doesn't right?
mooky stinks wrote:
With all due respect, you do realize Daytona has lights and Indy doesn't right?
With all due respect, you do realize Daytona has lights and Indy doesn't right?
Yeah, I've heard that.
Even been to a few races at Daytona before and after lights. My point is if NASCAR is all about driver safety, then why wasn't the yellow displayed immediately? It's too dark to continue, race over, so what? Instead NASCAR is again left to explain the thought process. There were cars coming through that wreck in the short chute behind the leaders. They certainly wasted no time throwing the caution for the front stretch wreck on the prior restart. NASCAR has more eyes on tracks big or small, all equipped with radios, than anyone. They know immediately what's happening, Race Control calls the shots and that's where the 'lazy yellow' originated. I don't believe it was done to favor the 5 car, but lack of consistent application of their own policy is one reason NASCAR's credibility is shrinking faster than the crowd at the Brickyard........
thomasmnile wrote:
Steve O'Donnell's defense was aimed at people that thought
Steve O'Donnell's defense was aimed at people that thought
O'Donnell clearly said the timing of the yellow didn't matter. There was not way the race could be restarted. It was too dark to clean up any wreck and restart.
As far as the front straight caution, did you watch the race, listen to any of the pre-race, or discussions during the weather delay? They talked a lot about how difficult it is spotters (and race control) to see much of the track. Much of the back straight is simply out of view of the front straight, the spotters, and race control.
Or even more pertinent, have you ever flagged a race?
When you are in the flag stand and see a wreck happen right in front of you before your location on the track, you throw the yellow flag.
When you have a wreck happens on a back straight the flagman cannot see, that race control can only see through video monitors - it is not instantaneous. Race control has to tell the flagman they are throwing the switch to turn on the caution lights.
I missed a flipping car on the back straight one night, simply because I was looking at the flag holder to make sure I picked up the checkered flag, not another one.
When I heard the call about the flip, I looked up and couldn't see it, because the car was already over the back straight fence and into the trees.
Frankly all the complaining about 'liquid rules' I see here is more a lack of understanding of details of racing more than NASCAR's actions.
And I have to say that's not unusual. I was simply dumbfounded the first time I heard someone complain about not knowing a rule - about 1987 - that was clearly written in the rulebook. Over the next 25 years of weekly involvement in racing, I've see over and over and over that racers, car owners, crew chief's simply don't make an effort to learn and understand the rules.
The best I've ever met was Ken Schrader. When he would race a late model at Devil's Bowl in the 90s, he knew the rules from SUPR. He told me one night that he is amazed how many people in NASCAR don't make an effort to learn the details of the rules.
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thomasmnile wrote:
They know immediately what's happening, Race Control calls the shots
They know immediately what's happening, Race Control calls the shots
When one of those people on the radio reports something, race control verifies what is reported. You can listen to them on the internet every week. They do not throw a yellow when someone says something happens.
(Frankly, any short track flagman learns that lesson quickly. Radio reports matter, but verify that a caution flag is justified. The flagman also quickly learns the voice of the promoter/ race director - whose instructions about a caution are to be instantly obeyed. All others must be verified.)
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Another thing I find interesting here is how out of touch with today's sports public, advertising, etc - most folks are.
Frankly, bottoms in the seats are not a major source of indicators of fans today. Not even TV ratings. It's the internet and social media which tell sponsors who is watching the race, who is following their advertising dollars.
Twitter feeds during a race are more important than folks in the grandstands.
It's a world I don't completely understand.
I said back in 1995 that television will kill the paid admissions at racetracks. I was wrong, television has made a dent, but the internet is what is really keeping folks out of the grandstands.
I've never understood why so people insist (in their mind) that ONE flag holder, in one location, can referee the entire race. THAT system will NEVER come back. I opened my track in 1979, and I certainly did NOT use this system. Among other officials, I had four(4) judges, all positioned in the lofty-high scoring "box", each assigned a different 1/4 of the racetrack. THEY called the shots to the "flagman". And, all 6 red-yellow-green traffic lights were controlled by an official up in the tower(scoring box). The flagman was a "puppet". Sure, this was a 3/8 mile clay track. But, THAT'S my point. There has to be a system that works, AND NASCAR has the BEST system that you can have, AT IMPOSSIBLE RACETRACKS. You simply can't produce good racing at facilities like Indy and Daytona. But, you can produce "spectacles and follies".
The other thing is that spectators and racers alike seem to prefer to remain ignorant of the racing rules. At my track, there were 51 racing rules. And, and the rulebook was FREE. Yet, the majority of protests that were filed came from people who did NOT know the rule(s) that applied to their protest.
PawPaw_n_Gram wrote:
O'Donnell clearly said the timing of the yellow didn't matter. Doesn't matter? Cars at max speed traveling nearly the length of a football field in a second doesn't matter?
As far as the front straight caution, did you watch the race, listen to any of the pre-race, or discussions during the weather delay? They talked a lot about how difficult it is spotters (and race control) to see much of the track. Much of the back straight is simply out of view of the front straight, the spotters, and race control.
Indy is a much larger facility than Daytona, sure, but NASCAR has race officials and safety crews all around the track, not just on front stretch roof.
Or even more pertinent, have you ever flagged a race?
No, just on I-4 cleaning up after a wreck as a firefighter. More dangerous.
Frankly all the complaining about 'liquid rules' I see here is more a lack of understanding of details of racing more than NASCAR's actions.
Not complaining, making observations of what I've watched, both at the track and on TV over 46 years as a fan. And, I have listened to the public frequencies for Race Control on my scanner when at a track. Sometimes more entertaining than the drivers.
And I have to say that's not unusual. I was simply dumbfounded the first time I heard someone complain about not knowing a rule - about 1987 - that was clearly written in the rulebook.
Much of NASCAR's rulebook is NOT for public consumption. More closely guarded than the nation's defense secrets.
thomasmnile wrote:
Steve O'Donnell's defense was aimed at people that thought
Steve O'Donnell's defense was aimed at people that thought
O'Donnell clearly said the timing of the yellow didn't matter. Doesn't matter? Cars at max speed traveling nearly the length of a football field in a second doesn't matter?
As far as the front straight caution, did you watch the race, listen to any of the pre-race, or discussions during the weather delay? They talked a lot about how difficult it is spotters (and race control) to see much of the track. Much of the back straight is simply out of view of the front straight, the spotters, and race control.
Indy is a much larger facility than Daytona, sure, but NASCAR has race officials and safety crews all around the track, not just on front stretch roof.
Or even more pertinent, have you ever flagged a race?
No, just on I-4 cleaning up after a wreck as a firefighter. More dangerous.
Frankly all the complaining about 'liquid rules' I see here is more a lack of understanding of details of racing more than NASCAR's actions.
Not complaining, making observations of what I've watched, both at the track and on TV over 46 years as a fan. And, I have listened to the public frequencies for Race Control on my scanner when at a track. Sometimes more entertaining than the drivers.
And I have to say that's not unusual. I was simply dumbfounded the first time I heard someone complain about not knowing a rule - about 1987 - that was clearly written in the rulebook.
Much of NASCAR's rulebook is NOT for public consumption. More closely guarded than the nation's defense secrets.
Woo Hoo, I'm feeling like Joey Logano after Matt Kenseth put him in the wall at Martinsville. But, ya' pays your money, ya' takes your chances. As always, my opinion, like you are entitled to yours. What makes this fun, and it has been fun; the thread is up to 41 pages and not shut down by the mod.