slowlane
Millersville, MD
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eltejano1 wrote:Dan:
Government has to do some things - like basic research and development on new technologies. Private industry simply cannot invest in questionable ventures that may or may not succeed and will show no short-run return The space program is a good example. Govt develops and industry applies.
I daresay there wasn't a single private investor in all of Europe who would have funded Columbus's hair brain voyage to the Orient by sailing West! Government had to do it - and reaped rich returns from their investment.
Government has a vital role to play in solving this crisis, although they rarely work fast enough, or efficiently enough, to satisfy us.
Jack
Jack, I think you have it backwards. It is precisely private industry that invests in "ventures that may or may not succeed" in providing an economically worthwhile return. Government R&D almost never produces any economic value to repay its costs, because the government lacks the incentive -- it will simply cover its losses with more taxes. The space program is indeed a good example -- the billions spent on sending humans into space would have produced far more useful technologies if they had been invested by entrepreneurs.
The only useful role for government in this crisis is to just get the hell out of the way and let private industry do its thing. If and when alternative fuels ever start to make economic sense, for example, private industry will deliver them. The government subsidies are simply misdirected resources.
I would also say that the monarchs of centuries past who funded Columbus and other voyages of exploration had far more in common with modern entrepreneurs than with modern politicians and bureaucrats.
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vern kelly
la crescenta, ca
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Stations in LA now common at 4.60 to 4.77 dollars American. Remember we in Californie get "special prices" because of the weather. Diesel at 5.12 dollars American! HOLY MOLEY! Only bright spot is improved traffic on the way home now. At least 10 to 15 percent of the cars are off the road by my crude estimates. Lightest traffic on the northbound 5 through downtown in the eleven years I've been driving this way. If this keeps up the worst is surely to come as people on the edge run out of money as time goes on.
I'm sure this is happening across the USA so obviously USA demand has nothing to do with it. All stations have gas and you can buy all you want. I talked to a tanker driver at the gas station today. He is an independent driver and said a load in his truck was worth 35,000 dollars American and may need armored escort soon! That's the report from LA.
It is amazing how the Dollar just ain't worth a dollar no more. Tomorrow God willing I'll wake up and go to make some more of those dollars!![[emoticon]](http://www.coastresorts.com/sharedcontent/cfb/images/smile.gif "smile")
My prediction is changes are already happening and the almighty dollar will force more changes down the road!
* This post was
edited 06/18/08 09:33pm by vern kelly *
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eltejano1
Woodville, Texas
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Slowlane - I certainly agree that the 15th century Spanish monarchy was motivated by pure greed, like modern entrepreneurs, but it was still a government program funded by TAX Dollars (or pesos). And I really don't think there would have been any space program had it not been for govt funding. I thought it was a waste of money at the time but I was wrong.
Atomic fusion has the potential of providing a clean and cheap source of unlimited energy and R&D must be continued, but private industry will not and cannot do it. The technology is at the point where researchers must have a "super collider" to proceed and Congress wisely appropriated $5 billion to build one at Waxahachie, TX several years ago. Land was acquired and construction began, but then Congress, responding to their short-sighted constituents, cut-off the funding and the project shut-down - after several hundred million had been spent. And there it sits - the ultimate, and perhaps the only, answer to the energy needs of the future is now nothing more a hole in the ground in rural Texas - not as a monument to govt boondoggle, but rather to our own narrow interpretation of our immediate self-interest. If it had been a private project - which is impossible in the first place - shareholders would have shut it down in the same way.
People don't see beyond their immediate situation and are not inclined to support what appears to be "pie-in-the-sky" science - like space travel. That's why strong political leadership and extensive govt involvement is the only way to assure the energy needs of the future.
Along with nuclear fusion, the research on super conductivity must continue as well. If they can find the right alloy for wires, our electricity consumption would immediately be cut in half. There is no way private industry will rise to this challenge because such an alloy might not even exist. It is presently publicly-funded at the university level, but we need an infusion of serious federal dollars for research because our time is running-out. Petroleum fuels are fading into history. We need a pragmatic partnership between govt and industry. Both have a vital role to play. Like in the New Deal era of the 30's, we need to ignore the political ideologues and tight-fisted taxpayers and do what works.
Jack
* This post was
edited 06/19/08 09:14am by eltejano1 *
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Bucky Badger
Madison, WI
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Oil went down 5 bucks a barrel today will gas prices drop tomorrow??????? Heck no!!!!
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slowlane
Millersville, MD
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Bucky Badger wrote:Oil went down 5 bucks a barrel today will gas prices drop tomorrow??????? Heck no!!!!
Wait and see. Gas went down 11 cents today on the commodity exchange.
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slowlane
Millersville, MD
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Jack, a few comments on your comments, and then maybe we can hoist a beer to each other.
"...the 15th century Spanish monarchy was motivated by pure greed, like modern entrepreneurs, but it was still a government program funded by TAX Dollars (or pesos)"
The monarchs of old put their own money at stake, based on rational calculation that the potential payoff justified the risk. That's what drives all innovative and risky ventures. Modern governments, on the other hand have no such incentive and that's why their ventures are almost always economic losers. The politicians are simply spending other people's money and have little interest in the results as long as they are far enough in the future not to risk the credit they give themselves for their noble intentions. I will grant you that government is necessary to provide major infrastructure such as highways and dams (while depending, of course, on private companies to build them). But energy and fuel are commodities that government has no good business with.
Nuclear fusion -- 50 years of research has failed to produce even a theoretical model of how to build a useful energy source with it. You are quite right that no entrepreneur would throw money at such classic pie in the sky. Even the politicians figured that out. Again, the billions poured down this black hole would have been much better spent on real energy sources.
"Petroleum fuels are fading into history." Don't swallow the propaganda baloney of the pie-in-the-sky "renewable energy" lobbies. The fact is that there is no technology on the horizon that can make a significant dent in the need to fuel aircraft, ships, and motor vehicles with petroleum products for the foreseeable future. The other fact is that the U.S. is sitting on enough petroleum reserves to meet our needs for several more decades. That's not counting the potential for coal conversion and oil shale exploitation, the technologies for which will doubtless become more economical by the time we really need them (without government help).
Cheers!
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ML
Livingston TX
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Sometimes the solution is worse than the problem:
In trying to come up with more energy efficient sources of light enter the energy saver light bulbs:
CFL Light Bulbs
ML
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eltejano1
Woodville, Texas
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Thank you, Slowlane. Excellent response. What a pleasure and privilege it is to be able to engage in controversial dialogue with well-informed ladies and gentlemen.
We seem to be confronted by the classical question of American politics, upon which our two parties are traditionally based - what economic role should govt play? As children of the Great Depression, most working class Texans of my generation are still New Deal Democrats at heart, and still see government as best representing our interests on questions like this one - despite the fact that we have been forced to choose between our pocketbook and our Bible at the ballot box for forty years - and the Bible wins in Texas, a solid "red" state. I have no political home, with one foot in each party, and my long association with Republicans allows me to understand your reliance on free enterprise to pull us out of this crisis.
My information is based only on news stories and TV documentaries, but I am under the impression that petroleum reserves are rapidly depleting and that we'll be facing major shortages within a couple of decades. Others claim we have a hundred years of oil left to pump. The truth on that probably lies between the two warring factions, but it is a finite resource, it does pollute the environment, and it's days are clearly numbered - the only question is how long it will last.
In any case, whatever the time frame, prudence demands that we begin to prepare for ever-increasing shortages and seek alternatives to this vital commodity. Since alternative energy is such a long-term program, with no immediate profit rewards, it seems to me that govt is much better positioned to fund this basic research. Isn't that a sensible position, Slowlane?
You are absolutely right - there is no other way to power an aircraft, locomotive or 18-wheeler at this time. If we wait until the basic research becomes economically viable for free enterprise to make the massive investments, it may be too late. If we run-out of oil without alternatives, we will see an economic and social collapse of literally biblical proportions.
Like most issues, the actual truth probably lies somewhere between our respective positions.
I'll have a Bud Light.
Jack
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rather be travlin'
Rose Capitol of (Texas at least)
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topflite51 wrote:eltejano1 wrote:Hi, "rather be travlin" from Tyler - right up the road! More famous as the home of former Houston Oiler Earl Cambell than for roses.
Awhile back, I suggested that an oil crash like '84 might be a good thing - but I was shot down and proved wrong. Tell Topflite you are praying for a crash and see what he says.
Jack
Jack Actually Jack a reasonable drop to somewhere between 60 to 80 per barrel would be sufficient to continue the development of other sources and forms of energy. It wouldn't set back energy policies like it did in 83/84. It would however, get rid of a significant number of speculators and their financial backers. I would argue that supply and demand definitely justifies the 60 to 80 range, anything above that is being pushed by pure speculation.
10-4, Topflite. That's exactly what I had in mind. The news report I referred to was about excessive inflation due to speculators, not the oil companies.
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DanHouck
Ajijic, Mexico
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Quote:Government has to do some things - like basic research and development on new technologies.
WRONG! Government "research" is largely a waste of money, they haven't a clue what is useful and what is not. Again, look at ethanol, what a boondoggle.
Government needs to get OUT OF THE WAY, the private sector will go to the technologies that are the most promising because of the PROFIT MOTIVE, the time tested road to succes.
The place where government has a role to play, and is FAILING at that role, is maintaining the competitive marketplace. Clinton allowed a bunch of major mergers that has resulted in the oil industry as being largely cartelized. Government needs to break up these companies so that competition returns. They'll take care of the rest.
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