topflite51
In The Desert of Nevada
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AO_hitech wrote:Anyone remember Enron? Quite an example of a company manipulating energy prices. No conspiracy there, just facts. Yeah, I remember Enron, they were encouraged to do things by the well meaning deregulators in California as I recall.
">David
Just rolling along enjoying life
w/F53 Southwind towing a 87 Samurai or 01 Grand Vitara looking to fish
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Any errors are a result of CRS.">
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topflite51
In The Desert of Nevada
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eltejano1 wrote:I don't anticipate flat-out nationalization, but I do think we're going to see some serious regulation of the industry. There's plenty of precedent for it. Gasoline, after all, falls under the category of "essential" goods and services and, therefore, could be considered a "public utility". Price controls would be the first step, and the industry couldn't raise prices without first making their case to a regulatory commission. This would lead to shortages and long lines at the pump, which would be followed be some sort of allocation system, i.e., rationing. After that, without vigorous enforcement, as in WWII, blackmarkets would develop, etc etc.
But John Q. Public has to get work, to the grocery store and the doctor. They'll probably devise some workable system for rationing. I remember WWII rationing. Our family car had a windshield sticker with an "A" on it, which meant it was just a low-priority family vehicle. I can't remember the details, but it seemed to work pretty well. Everyone complained, but it worked - we had essential gas but no extra.
Jack Is gasoline and diesel "essential", maybe for commercial applications, but for private? As to being a "public utility" best look at those, they are in serious need of capital for upgrading. The system for applying for a price increase is not working for those utilities. How would it work for the oil industry? Rationing fuel, may have worked where you were, but as I recall my father and uncle's stories regarding rationing, it didn't work where they were. I guess it all depend's on ones perspective on whether it worked or not. In today's ME FIRST society, I sincerely doubt it would work.
This country needs a clear and effective energy policy. It does not have the money to nationalize the oil industry, after all in this country you can not just take private property, you have to pay for it. They need a plan to increase supplies and to increase refinery capacity. They need a plan for nuclear and clean coal fired plants. They need to increase solar and wind generating capabilities. They even need to increase ethanol production, but for god's sake NO food products to do it. On the consumption side, they need to encourage CONSERVATION, and not just give it lip service. Which is what congress generally gives everything. Which is why we do not have an effective energy policy. And that is what this country needs most, even more than they need cheap gas and diesel.
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ML
Livingston TX
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Joined: 02/14/2004
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When you get lemons make lemonade:
"James Holler is the first to admit that he drives a gas-guzzler -- in fact, he has two of them. The Houston, Texas, businessman spends about $75 a week to fill up his 2004 Ford Expedition and another $80 on premium gas for his 2001 Jaguar XJ8. But instead of being a drain on his wallet, the soaring price of gas has been a financial windfall. "There's good business in it," Holler told CNN. "They're older models, but because everyone's dumping their vehicles you can't beat the price on them." Holler paid thousands less than the cars' blue book values and also saves on insurance because they're older cars, he said. One of his friends bought a Toyota Camry hybrid and is saving about $300 a month on gas, but has a $600 a month car payment, he said. Holler also is making money off of the SUV glut by buying vehicles at cut rate prices and selling them to people in Central and South America, where gas is cheap and big trucks are in high demand. "I'm snatching them up as fast as I can," he said. He says he just bought a pair of 2007 Ford F150s for $9,000 each and he's selling them for $18,000 each. It costs him about $2,200 to ship a vehicle out of the country, which leaves him with a tidy profit." For the rest of the article
ML
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traxtermax
UPSTATE NEW YORK
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Joined: 05/26/2004
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topflite51 wrote:Is gasoline and diesel "essential", maybe for commercial applications, but for private? There is no "commerce" without "private". Once the truck gets the food to market (commercial), "private" (people) must have the ability to travel to the stores, go to work, etc. Commerce wouldn't exist without "private's" participation. As to being a "public utility" best look at those, they are in serious need of capital for upgrading. The system for applying for a price increase is not working for those utilities. They seem to have worked for decades and if we can eek out 20-30 years using oil utilities, that may give us enough time to make the necessary transitions. ...Rationing fuel, may have worked where you were, but... In today's ME FIRST society, I sincerely doubt it would work... I don't think so either. I think in WWII the common ration was 4 gallons/week and 8 if you were working in an industry necessary for the war effort. Our population is much too diverse and spread out for similiar rationing.
For instance, a local company is considering four day work weeks because the average distance driven by their 500 employees is 43 miles to work (I may have my numbers wrong but you get the idea). The gas savings are substantial to say the least and any rationing program would have to be sophisticated.
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topflite51
In The Desert of Nevada
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I think you have lost it. XOM 100 billion in excess profits this year? When did that happen? I said 123 billion was book value, not market value. Guess which one you would have to pay? At close of business today market value is in excess of 460 billion, just pocket change for you, I guess. Who is going to give you 10 years to pay for it? You want my shares, its money up front or else go fly a kite. No terms just cash, your credit score is to far into the pits.
I love my country, just not the government. Somewhere's along the way, they forgot they are supposed to be working for us. Maybe it happened during FDR's New Deal or LBJ's Great Society, I just don't know, but it happened. You see the people as mostly liberal, they are on the coasts of this country (again, I don't know why, but they are), but in the interior they are not. You probably should get out more and mingle more with the people across this country.
* This post was
edited 06/13/08 08:36am by an administrator/moderator *
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slowlane
Millersville, MD
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onrecess wrote:It is tiring to hear the so called "America loving" people saying the govt is stupid, crooked (admitting this ruling party is unabashedly so) even under a different party), incapable of effective action... On and on. Gee, what part of America do y'all love? The dirt?
I love America and also believe its government, like any government, is stupid, corrupt, and incapable of effective action. America's great advantage over most of the world is that we still have a largely capitalist free market economy, meaning the government has done less to screw it up than in most countries. And I love the hard-working American people who stand on their own two feet and don't go crying to mommy government to "fix it" every time something hurts.
07 Rev 40E
Happily and guiltlessly maximizing my carbon footprint
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sirdrakejr
Las Vegas, Nevada
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Diesel fuel prices DROPPED here today at two more stations about $.06 a gallon after the others went down $.20. Hopefully it is becoming a trend!
![[emoticon]](http://www.coastresorts.com/sharedcontent/cfb/images/biggrin.gif "biggrin")
Frank
2011 Palomino Maverick 1000SLLB on a 2004 Dodge Quadcab CTD Ram3500 SRW long bed equipped with Timbren springs, Stable Load bump stops, Rickson 19.5" wheels/"G" range tires and a Helwig "Big Wig" rear anti sway bar.
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traxtermax
UPSTATE NEW YORK
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topflite51 wrote:Getting to the market or work by car is not an essential function. Ever hear of walking, riding a bicycle, etc. Of course but to use that as a broad justification that vehicles aren’t essential is ridiculous. Ever hear of people with bad knees, bad backs, asthma, heart problems, hemorrhoids etc.? Don’t they get eat or do they have to depend on someone else to get their grub? I want to see you pedal to the grocery store when it’s minus 20, the wind’s blowing at 20 MPH and the road shoulders are covered with snow or invisible. You’d have to be an idiot to ride a bike on snow covered highways when the roads are narrow and shoulders icy. If you fell on the shoulder by the time someone found you, you’d be frozen like a rock. Of course, they wouldn’t have to dig a grave, they could pound you into the ground. Wouldn't a lot of Americans be in a lot better shape if they tried it? Maybe not. Ambulances wouldn’t be essential either. The medics could ride bikes and make little saddle bags to hold batteries for the siren, oxygen cylinders and medical equipment. Maybe some people would be healthier but it has no real bearing on your introductory statement and bicycle ambulances are out of the question. Or how about mass transit or ride sharing? I think, when possible, that’s being done more than you may think. We haven’t developed mass transit because we relied on cheap gas and never saw a need for an extensive mass transit system until now. As to the utilities, their infrastructure is in horrendous shape, asking for price increases after the fact is not getting it done. It worked in the beginning, but it is slowly failing. "20 -30 years of using oil utilities, that may give enough time to make necessary transitions." What is that? Is that your idea of an energy policy for the nation? No. It was an alternative to windfall profits taxes. We need a workable, nonpartisan energy plan but we must also buy the time to implement it. That is a plan doomed to failure. It wasn’t an energy plan, it was a suggestion to contain greed. The reason I can that is simple, even you used the words "that may". You know the adage, “never say never”. Do we risk our children's and their children's future on those words? I think not. I don’t know what you’re driving at here. We have to do something better than that…
edit: changed "energy play" to "energy plan"
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edited 06/12/08 09:51pm by traxtermax *
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onrecess
Boca Raton, FL
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Do I really need to go through the list of things our "incapable" govt has done? Again? Think Interstate highways, rural electrification, winning WW1, winning WW2, the dams(Hoover, et al), the corp of engineer projects, the intercoastal waterway, national parks, and the list goes on forever. Of course, I guess the list mostly reflects a can-do govt (Democrat). If you are unclear as to the purpose of govt, we formed a nation of, by, and FOR the people. The govt is there to STOP monopolies and the wealthy from ruling the people. And let's stop the pretense that oil is "free market." The oil companies are NOT free market, they are a govt permitted monopoly. That bill would have ended that and exposed oil companies and OPEC TO a free market.
for a definition of govt:
"Governments were originally created for the purpose of increasing people's survival potentials, and in that same purpose, governments became involved in manipulating and managing regional economies.[31] One of a great many examples would be Wang Mang's attempt to reform the currency in favor of the peasants and poor in ancient China.[32]
At a bare minimum, government ensures that money's value will not be undermined by prohibiting counterfeiting, but in almost all societies—including capitalist ones—governments attempt to regulate many more aspects of their economy... for the benefit of the people."
"Thomas Jefferson, the author of the Declaration, explained that its purpose is to protect the exercise of those fundamental rights. While most people in society are peaceful, there is always the small minority that consists of murderers, robbers, thieves, invaders, and others who violently interfere with how other people are peacefully living their lives. Thus, we need government to arrest, prosecute, and punish antisocial individuals and to have sufficient power to effect such actions."
FDR:
“Instinctively we recognized a deeper need–the need to find through government the instrument of our united purpose to solve for the individual the ever-rising problems of a complex civilization.”
These remarks were made by FDR in his second inaugural address on January 20,1937.
Perhaps you mean to say the govt working with an industry (such as oil) and allowing it free reign as a monopoly IS what govt is for. I believe you will find that under a different definition: fascism. I'm fairly certain our funding fathers didn't have that alliance in mind.
OUR govt is what makes us American. Otherwise there is nothing but a vulnerable group waiting to be oppressed by the stronger or the more evil. You know, I think it is called deregulation. How many times can you fall for THAT one? Let's see, deregulate the Savings and Loan Industry (and loot it), deregulate energy (Enron and looting), deregulate environmental controls... Great ideas. How about if we allow oil companies to run a monopoly and fix prices? Oh, that is what we DID- while allowing this speculation through deregulation.
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edited 06/13/08 08:46am by an administrator/moderator *
Tom Anderson
2005 GeorgieBoy 35
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topflite51
In The Desert of Nevada
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"Interstate highways, rural electrification, winning WW1, winning WW2, the dams(Hoover, et al), the corp of engineer projects, the intercoastal waterway, national parks, and the list goes on forever."
Yes government has created the interstate highways and rural electrification and that very same government has allowed them to fall into a serious state of disarray and needing serious repairs. The government won WWI and WWII, they didn't win them, American soldiers did! It was their blood and guts, not some congressmen or senator or president of that era. Matter of fact, it was that can do group, what did you call them, demagogues wasn't it, that got us into them and a few others in the first place, as I recall. The dams, corp projects, have been good, but that is more ancient history and more money required. National parks, another area lacking funding. A lot of roads in our parks are in the same dilapidated condition as our interstates. The amazing thing is that for the 50 some odd years, your friends the demagogues, have controlled Congress and therefore the purse strings of the nation. Now you want them to nationalize XOM and others, where's the MONEY coming from. Remember, its cash up front.
Government is there to protect and serve us, not babysit every crybaby there is. Unfortunately, government is becoming a babysitter, there are just too many criers, whiners and complainers out there unwilling to accept their responsibilities for their problems. Government was NEVER envisioned by our forefathers to babysit its citizens, I am afraid they would be rolling over in their graves wondering where they went wrong.
* This post was
edited 06/13/08 08:49am by an administrator/moderator *
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