BertP
Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
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Joined: 11/07/2003
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Well, I did find a partial answer here for Alberta. Since it isn't the actual statute, I don't know if this is a commercial-only reg or if it applies to both commercial and private. But, notice section 2:
This function does not take into consideration the "gross axle weight rating" (GAWR) or the "gross vehicle weight rating" (GVWR) of the vehicle. The owner/operator of the vehicle should ensure that the weight carried is within the manufacturer's rated capacity specifications.
That seems to say that it is unlawful to exceed the manufacturer's GVWR or GAWR for your vehicle.
Jim - I have only pulled through weigh stations in Alberta and the Northwest Territories commercially. But, I don't do any commercial stuff anymore and even when I did, I was only concerned with the regs as they applied to my rig. Now, I have a 1 ton truck and a 5er. I am just trying to determine what regs apply to me now.
Bert
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JIMNLIN
Oklahoma
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Joined: 09/14/2003
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Bert
as I said in other replies that the odot lieutenant from S troop and the OHP captain from L troop said when I mentioned RVs they both agreed we leave them alone BUT if for any reason that a RV would be weight checked that we do it with the same odot weight regs pertaining to the vehicle tires capacity/GAWR?GVWR. I didn't ask them for any documented web site info as I'm only interested in complying with their interpetation.
JIM
"good judgment comes from experience, and a lot of that comes from bad judgment" ............ Will Rogers
'03 2500 QC Dodge/Cummins HO 3.73 6 speed manual Jacobs Westach
'97 Park Avanue 28' 5er 11200 two slides
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JIMNLIN
Oklahoma
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Joined: 09/14/2003
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BertP wrote:Well, I did find a partial answer here for Alberta. Since it isn't the actual statute, I don't know if this is a commercial-only reg or if it applies to both commercial and private. But, notice section 2:
This function does not take into consideration the "gross axle weight rating" (GAWR) or the "gross vehicle weight rating" (GVWR) of the vehicle. The owner/operator of the vehicle should ensure that the weight carried is within the manufacturer's rated capacity specifications.
That seems to say that it is unlawful to exceed the manufacturer's GVWR or GAWR for your vehicle.
(snip)
Bert
when you look at the FMCSA web under "vehicle related regs and statutory definitions part 571.3 they give the definition of GCWR/GAWR/GVWR as pertains to the OP. When we go to my state dps web for applying for a USDOT per MSC form-150 it says GVWR and GCWR is used. Keep in mind GCWR is the trucks door tag GVWR rating plus the trailers GVWR from its plate. As a example your trucks 12500 GVWR plus a flatdeck GNs 16000 GVWR = 28500 GCWR which is the combined weight tag that is needed. See dps.state.ok.us/ohp/mcs-150.pdf and para A in section II where it mentions vehicle GVWR-GCWR. FMCSA gives clear definitions of those terms. For some reason it won't make a clickie but its on home page for oklamome dps under commercial licensing/regs.
The belly bumpin' going on here is more to do with door tag GVWR-GAWR info and is it used legally. Fmcsa says it is. My state uses those requirements on farm tag requirements and applictaion for usdot per the web I mentioned. My state uses those same regs for commercial or non commercial weight enforcement per above odot and OHP troopers I mentioned above. According to them I have no seperate weight regs to worry with regarding commercial vs non commercial. For those that need a web for verbal confirmation/documentation, no I didn't ask for one.
One importatant note on reading the FMCSA website is read the disclaimer and look at new law under it.
JIM
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canuck 1
alberta
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Joined: 03/04/2005
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Bert
Since you don't give up..... here is the deal..... tommorrow I will meet you in Red Deer, we will go to the local scales, the RCMP detachment, the insurance company and your favorite minister. We will get all of your questions answered and those answers recorded for you so you can play them over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over......
Let me know what time
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jmramiller
Dallas
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Joined: 01/24/2006
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JIMNLIN wrote:BertP wrote:Well, I did find a partial answer here for Alberta. Since it isn't the actual statute, I don't know if this is a commercial-only reg or if it applies to both commercial and private. But, notice section 2:
This function does not take into consideration the "gross axle weight rating" (GAWR) or the "gross vehicle weight rating" (GVWR) of the vehicle. The owner/operator of the vehicle should ensure that the weight carried is within the manufacturer's rated capacity specifications.
That seems to say that it is unlawful to exceed the manufacturer's GVWR or GAWR for your vehicle.
(snip)
Bert
when you look at the FMCSA web under "vehicle related regs and statutory definitions part 571.3 they give the definition of GCWR/GAWR/GVWR as pertains to the OP. When we go to my state dps web for applying for a USDOT per MSC form-150 it says GVWR and GCWR is used. Keep in mind GCWR is the trucks door tag GVWR rating plus the trailers GVWR from its plate. As a example your trucks 12500 GVWR plus a flatdeck GNs 16000 GVWR = 28500 GCWR which is the combined weight tag that is needed. See dps.state.ok.us/ohp/mcs-150.pdf and para A in section II where it mentions vehicle GVWR-GCWR. FMCSA gives clear definitions of those terms. For some reason it won't make a clickie but its on home page for oklamome dps under commercial licensing/regs.
The belly bumpin' going on here is more to do with door tag GVWR-GAWR info and is it used legally. Fmcsa says it is. My state uses those requirements on farm tag requirements and applictaion for usdot per the web I mentioned. My state uses those same regs for commercial or non commercial weight enforcement per above odot and OHP troopers I mentioned above. According to them I have no seperate weight regs to worry with regarding commercial vs non commercial. For those that need a web for verbal confirmation/documentation, no I didn't ask for one.
One importatant note on reading the FMCSA website is read the disclaimer and look at new law under it.
JIM
Jim you seem to be the lone ranger on this one. No one else sees what you see in the Federal or OK regs. Unlike you, we have repeatedly posted links to the regs which clearly show that the only reference to manufacturers GAWR in FMCSA is the part which allows a state to limit the steering axle to manufacturers GAWR. It does not allow a state to do so to the non steering axle. One of the key words here is "allows" or as the actual code states "may". No where does FMCSA mandate that the state limit the steering axle to manufacturers GAWR. In order to enforce manufacturers GAWR on the steering axle a state would have to include it in its own codes something that OK has not done.
No where in either code is the door sticker GVWR rating legally binding. You can continue to say "I spoke with this person or that person"...as far as I am concerned that does not mean diddly. The only thing that comes into play here is the law.
As stated in my OP, I would like to see someone post a copy of a citation they received for being over manufacturers door sticker ratings. Again we are talking about non commercial RV's.
Now would be another great time for playing the theme song to Jeopardy.
2006 2500HD CC SB 4X4 Duramax/Allison
Prodigy/16K Reese/265E Tires/Bilstein Shocks
RM Active Suspension/RDS 60gal Toolbox combo
2008 Big Country 3490BHS by Heartland
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Wadcutter
IL
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Joined: 05/25/2004
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JIMNLIN wrote:.
just a comment for wadcutter. So far all we've seen from your door tag assesment, is your opinion. Show us a document that says the door tag GVWR/GAWR isn't used from our 2500/3500 class truck for combined licensing requirements per FMCSA or my state.
That makes absolutely no sense at all. Can't show something that doesn't exist.
BTW, all that I've posted is not "my opinion". It's been from the statutes, including from the feds.
You're the one who say that it does. Show us something that says such. If so then there will be a statute. They don't write statutes which are the negative. So far you haven't provided anything. All those things you've been posting doesn't. So far it only shows you don't really understand what it is you've been posting. It's a clear case of someone not understanding what they're reading or wanting something to fit what they think it says. You have your preconceived belief which contradicts with the facts and that is clouding your ability to understand the facts. And what shows that you are clearly confused about what you are posting you keep referring to FMCSA and trying to link it to registration and weights. FMCSA doesn't have anything to do with registration requirements. You are reading the parts about weights applying to FMCSA and jumping to the erroneous conclusion that somehow what makes FMCSA apply also applies to registration. It doesn't. 2 completely separate acts. One is not related to the other.
Reread jmramiller's last post.
I don't know why I even bother responding to these posts.
Camped in every state
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grey`eagle
N31° 55’ W95° 30’ ----- ESE of One Tree, TX
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Joined: 07/06/2004
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Given the arguments above, I for one can only perceive that the information stated above pertains to commercial operations, over the 26K, including the 20k axle limit standard and not the RV class.
However, the word “legally” has been introduced at some point with regard to RV’s and “legally binding limits”
Shown below are several websites where the mfg’ers specially state and give pertinent information on what can be towed with any given combination of truck and trailer.
The way I read the information posted on these websites below; where it states that the “maximum” weight that can be towed, is legally binding on the operator. As I’ve started many times over, "simply because you’re in compliance with one letter of the law, doesn’t mean you in compliance with all letters of the law".
This website lists all the towing guides for about all trucks in the RV class of towing.
This one pertains primarily to the F-250 I currently own. Ford Trucks.
Scroll down to page 25 and you’ll see in bold print what Ford says about weight limits.
Shown on the Dodge website.
The bottom line to this argument is being involved in a serious accident where a possibility of fatalities are involved and there is every intent to litigate the cause and circumstances of the accident.
While the commercial standard for over weight is no where near the maximum for the RV class; some of the weights or so called "no limit criteria" has been exceeded the mfg’ers standards as posted on the door jamb and or limits imposed by the tire or other limiting factors.
While the State Troopers are not likely to get involved in a civil litigation suit; unless subpoenaed by the court; the first thing any experienced attorney will investigate, will be the weight limits for both the TV’s and trailers.
Based on numerous posts in these forums, it appears that in a majority of the states, you can register you truck for about anything you desire. Including weights that get into the standard for commercial operations. However, that sure doesn’t mean that you are in the clear to knowing exceed the limits set forth by the mfg’ers, both for vehicle and tire.
Yes, I know, it’s been posted many times over that the information on the doorjamb is not legally binding. Ford says it is and that’s what I’ll go by until the wording on their towing guides is changed to specifically say otherwise.
'04 F-250 PSD TV
'04 CF28CK Cruiser
Now enjoying mother earth at ground level and one mile per minute.
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rshidler
Bellevue, NE
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Joined: 04/05/2006
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grey`eagle wrote:(snip) Yes, I know, it’s been posted many times over that the information on the doorjamb is not legally binding. Ford says it is and that’s what I’ll go by until the wording on their towing guides is changed to specifically say otherwise.
When did our Legislative Branch relinquish their authority to Ford? I must have been napping when CNN reported on this!
Bob & Jamie
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- Don't sweat petty things ... and don't pet sweaty things!
- I can't be troubled with your business ... I'm far too busy tending to my own!
- Remember, just because you saw it on the internet doesn't make it so!
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JIMNLIN
Oklahoma
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Joined: 09/14/2003
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wadcutter/jmiller
your both ingnoring those FMCSA rules I've mentioned for under 26000 lb class of vehicles. Part 571.3 clearly is a definition of GAWR/GCWR/GVWR and that link to a MCS-150 application for a USDOT which clearly points to vehicles GVWR/GCWR. Are either of you aware we have a over 10000 lb GVWR class per FMCSA. Find it and read it and check with your state on their interpetation/enforcement. So far neither of you have produced any document stating the vehicles GVWR/GAWR is nothing legal other than your opinions.
I understand full well how my state uses FMCSA regs to implement state licensing and follow those regs for weight enforcement of over 10000 lb vehicles. I full well understand my state uses those definitions mentioned above for commercial and non commercial enforcement. Miller says my state hasn't added GAWR in its own codes. That dot lieutenant and the OHP troop captain say different. Guess who I'm gonna' believe and I didn't even ask them for "where is it documented".
Its apparant neither one of you have ever towed commercial with a 3500 DRW truck, as a example, with a combined tag/cdl/us dot number. I have and the truck GVWR (right off the door tag ) plus the GVWR of the trailer (right of the trailer plates) gives us our combined for tags and that number goes into the application process for usdot number also. No, just like both of you, I don't have any document other than experience and verbal info from other operators and my state LEO on what it takes to comply.
Jmiller says were talking about RVs. Well,it just so happens my state uses both for commercial purposes and non commercial according to my state dot officer and state trooper. Thats enough for me.
edit for adding to above GVWR info is in my state for over 8000 GVWR vehicles vehicles we may raise our GVWR to 15000 max and no I don't have any documentation other than my tag office.
* This post was
edited 11/27/07 07:39pm by JIMNLIN *
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grey`eagle
N31° 55’ W95° 30’ ----- ESE of One Tree, TX
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rshidler wrote:-snip-
When did our Legislative Branch relinquish their authority to Ford? I must have been napping when CNN reported on this!
Ford isn’t dictating anything to anyone. Maybe a refresher in Civics 101 would be more beneficial than listening to CNN, if in fact that’s where you’re getting your information. i.e.
Legislative Branch delegates to DOT, which in turn delegates to FHSTA whom in turn sets the standards and make the regulations that affect all the mfg’ers and not just Ford.
This site is directly from the US Dot –FHTSA website and is written in plain language.
In addition to the above link read para 17 & 18 which references CFR 49 i.e.
listed as FAQ’s
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