|
|
ShapeShifter
Buffalo, NY
Senior Member
Joined: 04/03/2007
View Profile
|
Wadcutter wrote:ShapeShifter wrote:
But to say any RV is not likely to reach those limits may not be quite true. For a single rear axle MH, it's quite easy to reach 20K on an axle. My rig's ratings are 13K front, and 20K rear, and it's real hard to distribute the weight properly so that rear axle is not overloaded. I've also heard where some MH's are coming from the factory with 22K (and maybe even 24K) rear axles!
Don't confuse "rating" with actual weight. 2 completely separate things. I've weighed several Class As who wanted their weight checked. Never ever saw one actually go over 20K on a single axle.
Then you haven't seen mine. I know the difference between ratings and actual weights, and I'm not confusing them here. Like I said above, it's hard to distribute the weight properly on my rig. Only light stuff goes in the back of my main basement compartment, and many of my cabinets in the back of the rig are mostly empty. It would appear that most of my CCC is on the front axle, and most of my storage space is by the rear axle. It's very hard for me to keep my rear axle under 20K, and I've got the weigh slips to show it.
I can't believe that my rig is the only one like this.
2007 Holiday Rambler Endeavor 40PDQ LE
400 ISL Cummins/Allison
2013 Ford F-150 FX4 toad
Inside: Him, Her, and a pack of little furballs...
|
Wadcutter
IL
Senior Member
Joined: 05/25/2004
View Profile
|
ShapeShifter wrote:
Then you haven't seen mine.
Gee, ya think? Only how many million total RVs in the US?
Quote:
I can't believe that my rig is the only one like this.
Since I most likely haven't seen your rig I don't know if yours is the only one like it or not. As I stated tho I have weighed a bunch of RVs and people were surprised when they found out they didn't weigh as much as they thought. If you've got the weight tickets then you know you've got a problem if you're over 20K.
However, if your rear axle is over 20K then you could have a problem if weighed more than you think. For example, let's say your rear axle weighs 23,000. The fine in IL for being 3000 lbs over is $165. If 3001 lbs it's $260. IL is cheap in that regard compared to some states. But the real problem would be after paying the fine. The fine is not a permit to move. The problem will be when forced to get legal weight before moving.
Camped in every state
|
ShapeShifter
Buffalo, NY
Senior Member
Joined: 04/03/2007
View Profile
|
Wadcutter wrote:ShapeShifter wrote:
Then you haven't seen mine.
Gee, ya think? Only how many million total RVs in the US?
Yep, the odds of running into one are low. And I know you haven't seen mine since I've never been West of central OH! ![[emoticon]](http://www.coastresorts.com/sharedcontent/cfb/images/awink.gif "awink")
I'm not trying to give you a hard time. I just wanted to let others reading this thread know that it is possible to have an RV that approaches or surpasses the 20K limit. I feel it's important since that is one regulation that does seem to apply even if you're not commercial. I agree, 99% of the people probably don't have to worry about it all. Of the remainder, some have to look into their actual weights and never have to give it a second thought, while some will have to always struggle with it. As the trend has been for units to keep getting heavier, the problems will only get worse. (Although with the recent fuel price and economy pressures, maybe that trend will slow down or reverse?)
Quote:However, if your rear axle is over 20K then you could have a problem if weighed more than you think. For example, let's say your rear axle weighs 23,000. The fine in IL for being 3000 lbs over is $165. If 3001 lbs it's $260. IL is cheap in that regard compared to some states. But the real problem would be after paying the fine. The fine is not a permit to move. The problem will be when forced to get legal weight before moving.
I understand what you're saying. I don't weigh myself on every trip, and I'm sure my weight distribution varies from time to time. If I end up being over on the rear axle, and if I get stopped, I will usually have a full water tank. That's about 800 pounds of weight that's pretty much over the rear axle that I can always dump in an emergency. Hopefully, if everything goes wrong and I'm over and get stopped, it won't be by much and that water will be enough weight that I can shed to become legal again.
I do keep an eye on it, but I'm not paranoid about it and don't lose sleep about it because I know I've got some water weight leeway if there is an "oops." The biggest problem I have is my DW, who can't understand why there are empty cabinets that she can't fill. (And who just recently asked if we could get a golf cart lift to hang on the back of the rig -- I said absolutely no way! ![[emoticon]](http://www.coastresorts.com/sharedcontent/cfb/images/eek.gif "eek") )
I appreciate the efforts you've been making in this thread, and I hope you don't think I'm giving you a hard time or trying to be argumentative. That's not my intent.
|
blt2ski
Kirkland, Wa
Moderator
Joined: 03/15/2001
View Profile
 Offline
|
SHape shifter,
In the end, even for myself, I am not trying to argue with wadcutter or an equal. The idea, is to get wording such that we all understand, to the best of our abilities, what the actual weight laws are, and what we will have to do etc, if caught overweight! and it is VERY apparent, that for those with a little reading, will realize, manufactures ratings are not the law, it is based to protect the roads. Not the other vehicles etc on the road. From what I can tell, many of the weight laws go back to "cart/horse paths" in the mid to late 1800's. Some states like mine, ie washington, you still find these terms in the laws! Interstate, state highways are not part of the law per say. The laws were set up to keep folks from rutting dirt and crushed rock roads and early bridges/elevated structures from carts etc being towed by horses/oxen and the like. The only way back then, was actual weight on the cart transfered to the road bed, as SAE and equal specs, were still a fig nutten of ones imagination!
BUT, with that, I would agree, that there are some poorly designed type A MH's, of some folks that do not distribute the load correctly, or look at the RA and say, I have a 25K GRAWR from manufacture, load it accordingly, and find out due to a fluke, they are overweight! They may or may not understand why. Initially I was a bit confused, but when I realized "what" the overweight laws where ment to protect, it started to make sense. Just the figuring out "which law" per say would effect on in a given situation. And to realize as that last link to the US DOT points out, the goal is not to fine folks per say for being overwieght, it is to get folks under legal max weights. Legal max, is also legal minimum excepting by the formula, or if a road has a max overall legal limit or what ever reason. I've seen roads around here and elsewhere where do to frost heaving, you are limited for certain periods of time until the ground thaws completely too.
Marty
92 Navistar dump truck, 7.3L 7 sp, 4.33 gears with a Detroit no spin
2014 Chevy 1500 Dual cab 4x4
92 Red-e-haul 12K equipment trailer
|
Wadcutter
IL
Senior Member
Joined: 05/25/2004
View Profile
|
ShapeShifter wrote:
I appreciate the efforts you've been making in this thread, and I hope you don't think I'm giving you a hard time or trying to be argumentative. That's not my intent.
I understand and didn't take it that you were trying to give me a hard time.
blt2ski wrote:
I've seen roads around here and elsewhere where do to frost heaving, you are limited for certain periods of time until the ground thaws completely too.
I can make it even more confusing. Many states, IL included, have a 20K/34K/80K weight limit but that only applies to interstate highways and certain state roads. Most roads are limited to 18K/32K/73280. So when getting off the big road to go to a campground most likely the legal weight is 18K/32K/73280, not that it would still matter to most RVers.
Then as you mention there are a lot of secondary roads restricted during certain times of year.
|
|
|
pupeperson
Silver Springs, NV
Senior Member
Joined: 02/01/2007
View Profile
Offline
|
Shapeshifter: It sounds to me like your coach needs a tag axle. Perhaps it would be possible to mount one behind your present drive axle. These axles are often installed on heavy trucks forward of the front drive axle. They are liftable and many are also steerable, in the sense that they are spring loaded and will turn with the vehicle as required. They typically add about 8000 lbs of load carrying capacity and that too is adjustable I believe, determined by the amount of air pressure you allow into their air bags. It would be something to consider if you are really concerned about being stopped, weighed fined and parked. If you decided to get a tag axle, I would make certain that it is liftable in the event you are presented with a low traction situation. Transferring all the weight the tag would carry back to the driven axle would aid your traction immensely when and if the additional traction was needed.
|
ShapeShifter
Buffalo, NY
Senior Member
Joined: 04/03/2007
View Profile
|
pupeperson wrote:Shapeshifter: It sounds to me like your coach needs a tag axle.
That would be nice. Maybe in the next rig, I can't see where it would be worthwhile to try and retrofit something like that. In my case, it's not that big of a deal, at best we're talking a couple hundred pounds. The tag axle would weight lots more than that.
I didn't bring it up to discuss my situation specifically. It was just to make a point that the comment that an RVer never has to worry about the 20,000 pound axle limit is not necessarily true. I agree that most don't have to worry about it, but many do. Just looking at my particular model, 2007 HR Endeavor, which is arguably one of the more popular DP models, it's loaded in the neighborhood of 19,000 pounds on the rear axle as it comes from the factory. That doesn't give you a lot of carrying capacity, especially when you consider the size of the basement storage compartments and the amount of cabinet space.
And that 20,000 pound weight was in 2007. Looking at the 2009 brochure, the rear axle rating has been increased to 23,000 pounds. I can't imagine that they went to larger (and more expensive) rear axle just so that the owner can think they have more cargo carrying capacity. While I don't have the dry weights of the new models, my gut feeling is that they went with the heavier axle because the base weight is now over 20,000 pounds. If that's so, the empty rig would be illegal as it left the factory! And even if that isn't the case, any owner that loaded it up anywhere near the axle rating would be seriously over the federal limit.
And that model is not the only one. From what I've read on here, it's actually quite common in the larger DPs. At the time mine came out with it's 20,000 pound axle, I was reading about rigs that came from the factory with a 22,000 pound axle. I'll bet that if you look closely, it's more prevalent than you think.
My point is not to complain about my rig, or any of these other rigs. All I want to do is make people aware that while everyone should weigh their rigs to make sure they are within their equipment ratings, there are those who also really do need to worry about the 20,000 pound per axle federal weight limit. I only mention my rig to show that concept is not just theoretical.
|
Wadcutter
IL
Senior Member
Joined: 05/25/2004
View Profile
|
Don't confuse axle weight rating with actual weight on the axle. Just because it's rated for 23K doesn't mean that it has anywhere near that much weight on the axle. Also, don't confuse GVWR with GCWR.
I looked at your profile to see what rig you have that is so heavy. I have weighed quite a few rigs your size of various makes and have never found one yet that actually had 20K on a single axle. Maybe yours is special.
|
ShapeShifter
Buffalo, NY
Senior Member
Joined: 04/03/2007
View Profile
|
Wadcutter wrote:Don't confuse axle weight rating with actual weight on the axle. Just because it's rated for 23K doesn't mean that it has anywhere near that much weight on the axle. Also, don't confuse GVWR with GCWR.
I'm not confusing the actual weights and the ratings, we had this conversation already a couple months ago.
And you're right, I am making an assumption about the weight on the 23k axle. But that assumption is based on the model being "upgraded" each year with new features, and therefore getting heavier. Part of my logic is that two years after mine they moved from a 20k to 23k axle. Heavier rated axles cost more money, which means less profit. Why would they put in a heavier axle if they didn't need to do so?
And even if it's not over 20k from the factory, someone's going to see that 23k rating and figure it's safe to bring along their rock collection, like Lucy's character Tacy in "The Long Long Trailer!"
Another part of the logic is that after moving to the 23k axle rating, they announced that the next model year (2010) would feature a tag axle on that coach (but then they went bankrupt and only the two prototypes were ever made.) Again, tag axles are expensive, why would they put one on if not needed?
I'm not trying to belabor the point. And I will readily admit that it's not something that a majority of the RV owners will ever have to worry about. But there are some out there.
|
Wadcutter
IL
Senior Member
Joined: 05/25/2004
View Profile
|
I sent an email to Holiday Rambler asking what a model listed on your profile would weigh. I specifically asked due to the legal axle weight limits. Here's their response:
"20 k is the axle rating. I would say somewhere around 17 k for normally loaded and if it has a tag axle that weight can be adjusted thru the tag."
Yours must be special or you're carrying Lucy's rock collection.
Like I wrote, I've weighed quite a few Class As, including 2 axle models, and have never come across one running as heavy as you claim yours is.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
