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SolidAxleDurango
OK, USA
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Joined: 01/02/2003
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I'm actually amazed that this thread made it to this many pages given that FMCSA regulations specifically exclude "recreational" towing....
"The-law" threads entertain me... LOL
TV = 15 Ram 3500 Dually 6.7 / CC-LB / CTD / Aisin / 3.42 / 4wd / EBrake
5er = 12 Keystone Avalanche 330RE
Toys = 08 Kawasaki Brutie Force 650i 4x4 ( x2 "> ) 14 Arctic Cat Wildcat 1000
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hook47
Olympic Peninsula, WA, USA
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Joined: 10/27/2004
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Yep me too. Must be the "chemistry" angle...![[emoticon]](http://www.coastresorts.com/sharedcontent/cfb/images/rolleyes.gif "rolleyes")
For me, its beer...for others it might be "beer goggles"...they see what they want to see.![[emoticon]](http://www.coastresorts.com/sharedcontent/cfb/images/biggrin.gif "biggrin")
2008 Chevy 3500HD LTZ 4X4 CC / Banks IQ with Speedbrake & Economind tuner /2013 38RESB3...I know, the TV color doesn't match the MS!
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blt2ski
Kirkland, Wa
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http://www.ops.fhwa.dot.gov/freight/size_weight.htm
The law for weights from what I can tell, we must follow. RV's are included in this! We appear to be allowed the minimu/maximum legal axel wt by law, which is 20K per axle, 34 per tandem, and 80K total. States may choose to weigh RV's, or not. If you are over a legal axel limit, you can be told to move things around until legal, with an option of no fine, again, up to the state you are traveling in.
The few caveats I see, is states can limit you to a minimum of 500 lbs per inch width of tire. So to get the 20K per axel, you will need at least 40" of tires, in 2 20's or 4 10's depending upon if single or dually. Tandems you would need 4 8.5" tires if duals, and 2 17" tires if singles.
Also, if you license/registration papers do not have a paid for GVWR on it. That is when I believe some of us will run into trouble if pulled over! In which case, then the LEO in the weigh shack needs to figure out what you legal axel load is.
Example, my thought, two folks equal trucks, 11600 total, 4500 on front, 7100 on rear, 11400 on door, and 5000 for max front, and 9000 for max rear. trailer is 2 6K axels. One is me, I have a paid for GVWR sticker on my registration for the truck at 12K, trailers at 12K. Other is poor BertP in BC or jimilin in OK. Neither registration shows paid for wt tags. SO now the LEO has to go to the truck/trailer and figure out what is max, SO looks at door frame etc. Truck is 11400 max, trailer 12K but all three of us have 10K on axels, so ok there. Troop looks at my paper work, I am under all of the paper work ratings, sends me on my way. Bert and Jim meanwhile, are told max is 11400, and to go forward they need to lose 200 lbs off the truck! so they proceed to start moving items off the truck to the traler, or move spouses clothes out of front bed closet to the back of the trailer to reduce pin wt by 201+ lbs. Then troop will say bye bye. They may or may not get ticketed for being over loaded. BECAUSE> they get maximum by law, which is 20K per axel or 34 K for the trailer tandem. They are under this, but over there paid for weight!
ANother option, if they were in washington like I am, troop wieghs them, over registered weight, but under max axel weights, told I need to up my paid for wt until my registration is over, and sent on my way! been there done that! By theway, I was WAY over manufactures wts!
The component the weight laws are protecting, is teh road itself. NOT the tires, axels, springs brakes etc of the truck etc. BUT the road itself! WIeght laws started back in the late 1800's to protect the gravel dirt roads that states at the time started to put in, to keep the narrow wheeled horse carts from damaging these "cart paths" then it was moved into roads, interstates during the Eisenhower yrs in the 50's and the interstate system was started.
Look at above link to US DOT. also google "federal Bridge laws" look at Wikipedia listing etc. quite interesting to say the least. Will probably blow many of your minds as to what "ACTUAL" weight laws are protecting, and what you can really do! with what! I am sure the "RV.NET component weight police" will be up in arms!LOLOLOL
Marty
92 Navistar dump truck, 7.3L 7 sp, 4.33 gears with a Detroit no spin
2014 Chevy 1500 Dual cab 4x4
92 Red-e-haul 12K equipment trailer
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Wadcutter
IL
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blt2ski wrote:
Neither registration shows paid for wt tags. SO now the LEO has to go to the truck/trailer and figure out what is max, SO looks at door frame etc.
You're confusing 2 separate statutes. You are confusing registered weights and legal weights. That's a common confusion for people who are not very well versed in the law and try to interpret the law they way they *think* it should read.
Look at it this way. Your registered weight is a tax you pay to haul "X" number of pounds. Doesn't matter what your door sticker says. If you want to haul 10K in your truck then you pay the tax to haul at least 10K. If you decide you want to haul 15K then you would need to pay the additional "tax", ie, registration fee to haul the additional weight. You fed door sticker may say something like 9600 lbs. Doesn't matter what the door sticker says if you don't pay the tax (registration fee). It also doesn't matter if your door sticker says 9600 lbs and you've paid your registration fee for 12K. That door sticker doesn't mean a thing as far as what you register for. What matters is did you pay enough tax to haul for what you're hauling.
You can be over on your registered weight and completely legal on axle and/or gross. They are completely separate issues. When people who don't understand the law try to read it it seems as soon as they see the word "weight" they can't separate what they're reading and that confuses them. It's really not that difficult but people who don't have the training make it difficult for themselves and then when they try to explain what they *think* it just confuses others and even themselves more. People do the same thing when they read the speed statutes and similar worded statutes titled "too fast for conditions". They think because they're under the posted speed limit that they can't be cited for "too fast for conditions". Again, one doesn't have anything to do with the other.
The law is written at an 8th grade reading comprehension level. The problem is the average American reads at a 3rd grade comprehension level. They aren't capable of understanding what they read. What's even worse is for every person who is at a 5th grade level there is the person who is at the 1st grade level.
Camped in every state
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blt2ski
Kirkland, Wa
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Ok, so what do you do in the case of Bert or Jim, who's registration does NOT show a GVW based on tax paid? Because they have not paid a tax? I know I am good to 12K, because that is the tax I have paid for. I could pay $10 more and be good to 14K in my state. BUT, they do not pay a GVW tax, just a registration tax. They are under the max axel wt, but have not paid the tax, so what do you do? let them go? make them pay the tax? but if there from out of you area..............
Would just have Jim and Bert buy a "day" permit? In Wa, having been there done that, If pulled over under the bridge law amount, but over my registration, they give me 10 days to up the registration. no big deal.
* This post was
edited 05/16/09 09:10pm by blt2ski *
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Wadcutter
IL
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blt2ski wrote: Ok, so what do you do in the case of Bert or Jim, who's registration does NOT show a GVW based on tax paid? Because they have not paid a tax? .
You don't worry about it because that's the requirement set up by their state. Nothing says a state has to license light trucks with a weight paid license. It's a tax, that's all it is. If a state chooses not to license by weight then that's entirely up to that state. Every other state has to honor what ever licensing their home state has for registration. The feds mandate that.
What's the weight paid fee for a 1st division vehicle? Most don't have one.
Quote:
Would just have Jim and Bert buy a "day" permit? In Wa, having been there done that, If pulled over under the bridge law amount, but over my registration, they give me 10 days to up the registration. no big deal.
Once again you're confusing apples and oranges. Bridge law has nothing to do with registration (tax). Bridge is axle/gross weights. You're doing exactly what I said earlier. People read the word "weight" and they confuse the 2 thinking they're somehow related. They're not. One (registration) is a fee to haul a certain weight. Axle/gross are the limits imposed by either the axle or gross allowable limits set by statute or bridge which is set because of limits to the road, bridge, or length of the vehicle.
Here's where it gets really confusing to the untrained. Bridge law has nothing to do with bridges. Bridge law is the max load you can carry depending on the length of your vehicle. Bridge being the distance between say your front and rear axle (outter bridge) or between any other 2 axles (inner bridge). The bridge built over water that has limits is not about the bridge law. Again, that's where people who haven't had any legal training read "bridge" and their frame of reference is the steel or concrete thing they drive over. In legal terms that's not what it refers. The weight limits posed for the steel or concrete thing over water is a structure limit.
See why it's dangerous and sometimes silly for people who have no legal training try to explain the statutes? They read a word that is common to them and expect that to mean the same in the statutes. As a result they just confuse themselves even more and others when they try to explain to someone else who doesn't understand. That's why what should be a simple thread ends up going 20 pages, because people can't get out of their heads the definitions they *think* are not the same as the statutes' meanings.
* This post was
edited 05/17/09 05:34am by Wadcutter *
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blt2ski
Kirkland, Wa
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So in other words, all we have to really worry about, is staying under the 20K/34/80K limits, and we're fine! I knew the bride law only was what I could carry on a road, based on a algebraic formula, titles and registration were a different rule law.
For RV'rs, that will probably be the simplest thing, stay under those weights, don't worry about the rest, other than what the vehicle can actually carry in and of itself, which in most cases for us with DOT class 1-6 trucks, is less than what the road will handle.
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Wadcutter
IL
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blt2ski wrote:So in other words, all we have to really worry about, is staying under the 20K/34/80K limits, and we're fine!
Again, for registration it could depend on how much you have your vehicle registered for. It's not likely you'll exceed the minimum registered weights for states but if you had a particularly heavy TV and a really large, heavy 5er and you registered for the lightest weights then it might be possible to exceed your registered weights. Simple fix is just to register the vehicle for the proper weights. It's not an overweight issue, it's an issue of not paying enough tax for what is being hauled.
An example would be a state like WI. Use to be, and maybe still is, WI didn't not register small trailers. It was very common to see a popup or small travel trailer going down the road without a license plate. They were legal in WI and they could pull that trailer anywhere in the US and still be legal because they complied with WI law where they were from.
As far as exceeding the 20K/34K/80K limits that's not likely with any RV. You're not going to be able to put 20K on a single RV or TV axle. The standard truck and RV tires and axlesaren't made to handle that much weight. Not that they couldn't legally carry the weight it's just that they're not constructed to carry that much weight.
Same with 34K on a tandum axle. Just not going to see anywhere near that much weight in an RV. Even total weight of RV and TV won't be close to 34K let alone on a pair of axles.
Same with 80K. Just not going to have that much total weight.
I'm sure some people when they hook up to their 5er or trailer think they're hauling in the same weight class as the big semis they see on the road. Not even close. The tractor that pulls the semi trailer, without the trailer, will weigh more than the typical TV and 5er.
Think about this. Your ton Ford, Chevy, Dodge may weight about 8000 lbs. A 5er may average 12K, some a bit more, a whole lot of them less. If those were both loaded they would total about 20K. They would have 20K on 4 axles where legal weight would allow all of that on just one axle. If their total weight was 20K they could haul 4 times more and still be at 80K legal weight. To put it more in perspective, if it would fit, most people could put their entire household furnishings, everything they own, in that rig and still be under 80K. People don't realize just how much 80K weighs.
Where it is important to known your RV's weight is when getting off the beaten path and coming across roads and bridges that may have restricted weight limits. If you're out driving the back roads and come across a bridge posted something like "6 Ton Limit" then you'll need to know how much your rig weighs. If your total weight happen to be at 7 tons then it's not an overweight issue, it's an issue of being over the limit for an elevated structure. Your total weight may be legal for the road but the structure limits it. Still not an overweight, over the limit for the structure.
* This post was
edited 05/17/09 03:39pm by Wadcutter *
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ShapeShifter
Buffalo, NY
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Joined: 04/03/2007
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Wadcutter wrote:As far as exceeding the 20K/34K/80K limits that's not likely with any RV. You're not going to be able to put 20K on a single RV or TV axle. The standard truck and RV tires and axlesaren't made to handle that much weight. Not that they couldn't legally carry the weight it's just that they're not constructed to carry that much weight.
I'll grant you that it's unlikely with any towed RV. I think your statement is valid considering that this is the "Tow Vehicles" forum, and therefore it's reasonable that you mean towed RVs.
But to say any RV is not likely to reach those limits may not be quite true. For a single rear axle MH, it's quite easy to reach 20K on an axle. My rig's ratings are 13K front, and 20K rear, and it's real hard to distribute the weight properly so that rear axle is not overloaded. I've also heard where some MH's are coming from the factory with 22K (and maybe even 24K) rear axles!
2007 Holiday Rambler Endeavor 40PDQ LE
400 ISL Cummins/Allison
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Inside: Him, Her, and a pack of little furballs...
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Wadcutter
IL
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ShapeShifter wrote:
But to say any RV is not likely to reach those limits may not be quite true. For a single rear axle MH, it's quite easy to reach 20K on an axle. My rig's ratings are 13K front, and 20K rear, and it's real hard to distribute the weight properly so that rear axle is not overloaded. I've also heard where some MH's are coming from the factory with 22K (and maybe even 24K) rear axles!
Don't confuse "rating" with actual weight. 2 completely separate things. I've weighed several Class As who wanted their weight checked. Never ever saw one actually go over 20K on a single axle.
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