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JIMNLIN
Oklahoma
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Joined: 09/14/2003
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Gunpilot77 wrote: If you were to be believed, i.e., that OK requires RVs to comply with commercial regs then all of us with rigs over 10,000 GVWR would be required to have a med card.
I read the post on page 16, and could care less about FMCSA regs while towing my 5er. How about the phone number and name of your all knowing trooper. Every time I pass thru OK I plan on stopping at the scales to test your assertions, but they are always closed.
And this is what pipewelder said; "As for the GVWR from the manufacturers, this is for warrantys and guidelines." You conveniently ignored that part.
Once again this thred is about fed regs and nowhere have I said OK requires RVs to comply with commercial regs/med cards. So thats a non issue. What I said was that door tag GVWR/GAWR are legal issues. The 390.5 reg on "missing GVWR tag" I posted just proves that point. This thread is about fed regs. How is door tag GVWR applied and how is GAWR used.
As far as GVWR pertains to non commercial which includes RVs, its not used in my state for combined combos. Thats where door tag GAWR/tire caps come to play per OK reg title 47 "weighing of vehicles". As the 390.5 reg the trooper gave me says door tag (placard) GVWR is used in determining the applicability of FMCSRs.
OK scale house will wave you on through with a RV umless you have a dot number on the truck.
Troopers name and phone number. LOL. Now isn't that original. If your really interested , which I doubt, here is OHP troop S phone number 405-521-6103 which is our commercial weights division. There will be a lieutenant on duty to answer your question on how OK uses door tag GVWR/GAWR either commercial or non commercial. Their going to tell you the same thing I've said as I've already talked with them last fall. Be sure and ask the officer for OK regs numbers.
the 390.5 reg is about operators making it impossible for roadside officers to determine ;
Question 3: If a vehicle’s GVWR plate and/or VIN number are missing but its actual gross weight is 10,001 pounds or more, may an enforcement officer use the latter instead of GVWR to determine the applicability of the FMCSRs?
Guidance: Yes. The only apparent reason to remove the manufacturer’s GVWR plate or VIN number is to make it impossible for roadside enforcement officers to determine the applicability of the FMCSRs, which have a GVWR threshold of 10,001 pounds. In order to frustrate willful evasion of safety regulations, an officer may therefore presume that a vehicle which does not have a manufacturer’s GVWR plate and/or does not have a VIN number has a GVWR of 10,001 pounds or more if: (1) It has a size and configuration normally associated with vehicles that have a GVWR of 10,001 pounds or more; and (2) It has an actual gross weight of 10,001 pounds or more.
A motor carrier or driver may rebut the presumption by providing the enforcement officer the GVWR plate, the VIN number or other information of comparable reliability which demonstrates, or allows the officer to determine, that the GVWR of the vehicle is below the jurisdictional weight threshold.
All I'm saying is this proves the door tag is a legal fed issue and is more than a mattress tag or just for warranty issues.
"good judgment comes from experience, and a lot of that comes from bad judgment" ............ Will Rogers
'03 2500 QC Dodge/Cummins HO 3.73 6 speed manual Jacobs Westach
'97 Park Avanue 28' 5er 11200 two slides
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Gunpilot77
Killeen, Tx
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JIMNLIN wrote:
Once again this thred is about fed regs and nowhere have I said OK requires RVs to comply with commercial regs/med cards. So thats a non issue.
11/12/07 you said" His comment on what vehicle weights they use for enforcement for our non commercial trucks was in his words mirrowed the same weight regs as dot uses."
JIMNLIN wrote: What I said was that door tag GVWR/GAWR are legal issues. The 390.5 reg on "missing GVWR tag" I posted just proves that point.
Once again, you did not quote anything out of 390.5 . 390.5 is the section that lists definitions, nothing else.
Also, on 11/19/07 you claimed that you could exceed the door tag numbers
"let me say this again. When we apply and operate with combined plates for a 3500 truck [example] the door tag GVWR and the trailers GVWR is added together to make my combined numbers. If the state the truck is registered in has a uprate GVWR [as my state] that it is my registered GVWR. My last 3500 DRW had the 15000 GVWR uprate registration plus the 16000 GVWR trailer gave me my combined 31000 lb combined."
So which is it? Or do you have a special Dodge 3500 with a GVWR of 15,000 equipped with special axles that have a total weight capability of 15,000? My Dodge duelly axle ratings added together is 12,000.
Repeating the same gibberish over and over will not make it true.
And I will call the number you listed.
Fifth wheel pulled with a pick-up
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JIMNLIN
Oklahoma
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Joined: 09/14/2003
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(quote=jmramiller)
A direct quote from 10 ton's post " In the case of a private use pickup, it can only be registered for it's Fed label". This is not the only time he contridicts himself in the post. He also states that an insurance claim can be denied for being "overweight" which is absolutely incorrect.
======================================================================
Texas 502 registration regs
(quote)Sec. 502.055. DETERMINATION OF WEIGHT. (a) The weight, net weight, or gross weight of a vehicle, as determined by the department, is the correct weight for registration purposes, regardless of any other purported weight of the vehicle.
(b) The department may require an applicant for registration under this chapter to provide the department with evidence of:
(1) the manufacturer's rated carrying capacity for the vehicle;
(2) the nominal tonnage rating of the vehicle;
(3) the gross weight rating of the vehicle; or
(4) any combination of information described in Subdivisions (1)-(3).
Acts 1995, 74th Leg., ch. 165, Sec. 1, eff. Sept. 1, 1995. Amended by Acts 1997, 75th Leg., ch. 625, Sec. 3, eff. Sept. 1, 1997.
(/quote)
10 ton was correct just as he was about buying more weight for commercial use and private pickup. looks like you need some input from casper or some one that is familiar with your own state of TX registration regs as your knowledge is .... zero. If you knew anything about "commercial insurance" you would know that a violation of FMCSRs can and will lead to insurance dening coverage in case of a accident involving overweight issues. Like I told wadcutter if you want to trash talk I'll respond in kind. Your choice.
Your still blowing smoke trying to discreadit 10 tons comments and ingnoring the fed reg I posted about "missing GVWR placard". The 390.5 reg just proves the legality of the door tag which is what this thread is about.
Fed regs regarding door tag and how your/my state enforces those regs for a combined combo would be a better thread topic as too many are clueless about their owns state enforcement of those fed regs involving door tag issues and a combined combo. Also some, as you and others think, that my state enforces door tag as your state. Not so. I certainly wouldn't take someone claiming to be a LEO on a RV web advice over what your own state LEO.
The door tag GVWR in my state is used for commercial combined plates above 26k and axle capacity not covered in our max axle loads allowed/bridge law. Door tag GVWR is not used on the non commercial side in OK, which includes RVs, for a combined combo. In fact their is no gvwr on a oklahoma registration unless its for commercial purposes.
Door tag GAWRs/tire caps apply in my state for commercial combined combo. They also apply for non commercial combined combo which include RVs.
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JIMNLIN
Oklahoma
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Joined: 09/14/2003
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Gunpilot77 wrote:JIMNLIN wrote:
Once again this thred is about fed regs and nowhere have I said OK requires RVs to comply with commercial regs/med cards. So thats a non issue.
11/12/07 you said" His comment on what vehicle weights they use for enforcement for our non commercial trucks was in his words mirrowed the same weight regs as dot uses."
Quote:the same door tag GVWR/GAWR issues pertaining to it legal use.
JIMNLIN wrote: What I said was that door tag GVWR/GAWR are legal issues. The 390.5 reg on "missing GVWR tag" I posted just proves that point.
Once again, you did not quote anything out of 390.5 . 390.5 is the section that lists definitions, nothing else.
Quote: heres is 390.5 reg from the FMCSA web site
Question 3: If a vehicle’s GVWR plate and/or VIN number are missing but its actual gross weight is 10,001 pounds or more, may an enforcement officer use the latter instead of GVWR to determine the applicability of the FMCSRs?
Guidance: Yes. The only apparent reason to remove the manufacturer’s GVWR plate or VIN number is to make it impossible for roadside enforcement officers to determine the applicability of the FMCSRs, which have a GVWR threshold of 10,001 pounds. In order to frustrate willful evasion of safety regulations, an officer may therefore presume that a vehicle which does not have a manufacturer’s GVWR plate and/or does not have a VIN number has a GVWR of 10,001 pounds or more if: (1) It has a size and configuration normally associated with vehicles that have a GVWR of 10,001 pounds or more; and (2) It has an actual gross weight of 10,001 pounds or more.
A motor carrier or driver may rebut the presumption by providing the enforcement officer the GVWR plate, the VIN number or other information of comparable reliability which demonstrates, or allows the officer to determine, that the GVWR of the vehicle is below the jurisdictional weight threshold.
"applicability and definitions"
Also, on 11/19/07 you claimed that you could exceed the door tag numbers
"let me say this again. When we apply and operate with combined plates for a 3500 truck [example] the door tag GVWR and the trailers GVWR is added together to make my combined numbers. If the state the truck is registered in has a uprate GVWR [as my state] that it is my registered GVWR. My last 3500 DRW had the 15000 GVWR uprate registration plus the 16000 GVWR trailer gave me my combined 31000 lb combined."
So which is it? Or do you have a special Dodge 3500 with a GVWR of 15,000 equipped with special axles that have a total weight capability of 15,000? My Dodge duelly axle ratings added together is 12,000.
Repeating the same gibberish over and over will not make it true.
And I will call the number you listed.
Quote:talk about gibbrish. My only claim was uprating GVWR to 15000 lb for my combined plates. If I choose not to uprate I use the trucks GVWR for a combined plate. GAWRs cannot be changed. Apparenty your state doesn't have a uprate tonnage/weight/etc as my state and others do. While your asking question go over on some of the commercial haulers webs and let them explain how GVWR is used and how GAWR come to play concerning combined towing. Try uship.com and ask 1 mean dog to explain door tag issues. He ain't nice but he can explain it much better than I can.
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jmramiller
Dallas
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Joined: 01/24/2006
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JIMNLIN wrote:(quote=jmramiller)
A direct quote from 10 ton's post " In the case of a private use pickup, it can only be registered for it's Fed label". This is not the only time he contridicts himself in the post. He also states that an insurance claim can be denied for being "overweight" which is absolutely incorrect.
======================================================================
Texas 502 registration regs
(quote)Sec. 502.055. DETERMINATION OF WEIGHT. (a) The weight, net weight, or gross weight of a vehicle, as determined by the department, is the correct weight for registration purposes, regardless of any other purported weight of the vehicle.
(b) The department may require an applicant for registration under this chapter to provide the department with evidence of:
(1) the manufacturer's rated carrying capacity for the vehicle;
(2) the nominal tonnage rating of the vehicle;
(3) the gross weight rating of the vehicle; or
(4) any combination of information described in Subdivisions (1)-(3).
Acts 1995, 74th Leg., ch. 165, Sec. 1, eff. Sept. 1, 1995. Amended by Acts 1997, 75th Leg., ch. 625, Sec. 3, eff. Sept. 1, 1997.
(/quote)
10 ton was correct just as he was about buying more weight for commercial use and private pickup. looks like you need some input from casper or some one that is familiar with your own state of TX registration regs as your knowledge is .... zero. If you knew anything about "commercial insurance" you would know that a violation of FMCSRs can and will lead to insurance dening coverage in case of a accident involving overweight issues. Like I told wadcutter if you want to trash talk I'll respond in kind. Your choice.
Your still blowing smoke trying to discreadit 10 tons comments and ingnoring the fed reg I posted about "missing GVWR placard". The 390.5 reg just proves the legality of the door tag which is what this thread is about.
Fed regs regarding door tag and how your/my state enforces those regs for a combined combo would be a better thread topic as too many are clueless about their owns state enforcement of those fed regs involving door tag issues and a combined combo. Also some, as you and others think, that my state enforces door tag as your state. Not so. I certainly wouldn't take someone claiming to be a LEO on a RV web advice over what your own state LEO.
The door tag GVWR in my state is used for commercial combined plates above 26k and axle capacity not covered in our max axle loads allowed/bridge law. Door tag GVWR is not used on the non commercial side in OK, which includes RVs, for a combined combo. In fact their is no gvwr on a oklahoma registration unless its for commercial purposes.
Door tag GAWRs/tire caps apply in my state for commercial combined combo. They also apply for non commercial combined combo which include RVs.
Notice the word "may". It does not say "must" or "can not" anywhere in the regs you qouted. When I registered my private truck I asked how much weight I could register for and the answer was as much as I am willing to pay for - period. If you can register your truck above the "Fed Label" (which they allowed in my case and have allowed as a practice for many years) then 10 Ton is wrong. 10 Ton did not say you "may" have to provide documentation proving the weight you are requesting does not exceed the Fed label. What he did say was "it can only be registered for it's Fed label". If he is referring to the sticker on the inside of the door then he is wrong. The fact is Texas will allow you to register above that number or below it for that matter.
As far as the "Fed Label" goes - it states on the sticker that the listed weights are valid only for the truck as it was shipped from the maker. The very first mod done to the truck makes the sticker obsolete. In my case the "label" on my truck reflects a SRW configuration. My truck is no longer a SRW truck. The Sticker on my truck no longer in any way reflects (not that is ever did) my trucks capabilities.
Again you would like us to believe that every professional expert on this forum is wrong and you alone are correct. You must really love that fantasy world you live in.
My father always told me that only an idiot argues with an idiot. I believe by his definition continuing this dialoge would make me an idiot.
* This post was
edited 02/04/09 05:44am by jmramiller *
2006 2500HD CC SB 4X4 Duramax/Allison
Prodigy/16K Reese/265E Tires/Bilstein Shocks
RM Active Suspension/RDS 60gal Toolbox combo
2008 Big Country 3490BHS by Heartland
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Gunpilot77
Killeen, Tx
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Here is FMCSA reg 390.5 from their website. You ought to read it sometime. fmcsa.dot.gov/rules
And once again, we as RVers do not fall under FMCSA regs anyway.
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Gunpilot77
Killeen, Tx
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I just called the number you listed. It is now 405-702-0813 BTW. I spoke to a Lt. about my non-commercial trailer. Since you have been inconsistant and somewhat confusing in your posts I wasn't sure what to ask him, but here are the high points. 1. It doesn't matter that the certification tag on my 24 ft deckover flatbed has fallen off. As long as it isn't loaded over the registered weight (14,000 pounds) or over the weight ratings of the tires, there is no problem pulling it in OK. 2. Axle limits are 20,000 per axle.....period, private or commercial.
3. There is no law in OK that limits how much you can carry in a vehicle as long as you don't exceed the previously listed limits. In other words, exceeding the manufacturers GVWR is not illegal. Exceeding the GAWR on the tag is not illegal. If I installed LT 235/85R16 Goodyear load range G tires on my duelly and inflated them to 110 psi I could legally load it to 21,160 pounds. He did point out that would be a warranty issue if there was a mechanical failure. He also noted that if I were loaded that heavy and was in an accident that weight could be an issue in a lawsuit, so just because it is legal it might not be prudent.
There you have it. You've been busted. Have a nice day.
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JIMNLIN
Oklahoma
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Joined: 09/14/2003
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jmramiller wrote:
Notice the word "may". It does not say "must" or "can not" anywhere in the regs you qouted. When I registered my private truck I asked how much weight I could register for and the answer was as much as I am willing to pay for - period. If you can register your truck above the "Fed Label" (which they allowed in my case and have allowed as a practice for many years) then 10 Ton is wrong. 10 Ton did not say you "may" have to provide documentation proving the weight you are requesting does not exceed the Fed label. What he did say was "it can only be registered for it's Fed label". If he is referring to the sticker on the inside of the door then he is wrong. The fact is Texas will allow you to register above that number or below it for that matter.
As far as the "Fed Label" goes - it states on the sticker that the listed weights are valid only for the truck as it was shipped from the maker. The very first mod done to the truck makes the sticker obsolete. In my case the "label" on my truck reflects a SRW configuration. My truck is no longer a SRW truck. The Sticker on my truck no longer in any way reflects (not that is ever did) my trucks capabilities.
Again you would like us to believe that every professional expert on this forum is wrong and you alone are correct. You must really love that fantasy world you live in.
My father always told me that only an idiot argues with an idiot. I believe by his definition continuing this dialoge would make me an idiot.
according to TX 502.055 registering code the department may require the applicant one of four criteria. Number 3 "the gross weight rating of the vehicle which is the trucks door tag GVWR. As far as the the fed label goes only a certified vehicle alterer can legally chage the numbers on the label per NHTSA rules. Also adding bigger tires wheels according to NHTSA regs does not qualify as a altered vehicle or will it change. NHTSA home page has a FAQ on altered vehicles/certified vehicle alterers or modifiers and the vehicles GVWR/GAWR.
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JIMNLIN
Oklahoma
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Gunpilot77 wrote:I just called the number you listed. It is now 405-702-0813 BTW. I spoke to a Lt. about my non-commercial trailer. Since you have been inconsistant and somewhat confusing in your posts I wasn't sure what to ask him, but here are the high points. 1. It doesn't matter that the certification tag on my 24 ft deckover flatbed has fallen off. As long as it isn't loaded over the registered weight (14,000 pounds) or over the weight ratings of the tires, there is no problem pulling it in OK. 2. Axle limits are 20,000 per axle.....period, private or commercial.
3. There is no law in OK that limits how much you can carry in a vehicle as long as you don't exceed the previously listed limits. In other words, exceeding the manufacturers GVWR is not illegal. Exceeding the GAWR on the tag is not illegal. If I installed LT 235/85R16 Goodyear load range G tires on my duelly and inflated them to 110 psi I could legally load it to 21,160 pounds. He did point out that would be a warranty issue if there was a mechanical failure. He also noted that if I were loaded that heavy and was in an accident that weight could be an issue in a lawsuit, so just because it is legal it might not be prudent.
There you have it. You've been busted. Have a nice day. #1. the GVWR on your trailer was only your issue as the fed reg missing door tag GVWR plate I posteed above is about the tow vehicle. If the GVWR placard is missing on a trailer a leo usually will get the axle tag ratings from the axles and use it as the trailers GVWR.
#2/#3.
Never said exceeding GVWR was illegal in OK as a commercial operator may elect to register or buy a higher gross ladin weight (15000 max) for his registered GVWR for combined (GCWR) plates. Or I may elect to just use the trucks door tag GVWR for my combined GCWR plates which is what I have now. Not sure who or if the the person you talked with has ever ran a scale house or did a road side weights check. Going through a scale house or a road side weights check "if" the officer has reason to think the weights are above max weight and tire capacity the officer then checks the door tag GAWR numbers to verify if actually overweight. They give us 5 percent over axle capacity and 15 percent on GVWR I've been hit on this point a couple of times whem hauling wheeled equipment. Scale house officers get pretty good at knowing tire and axle weights of a 3500 DRW for example. As the OK dot officer I talked with said tires are matched to the vehicle axle system per 49cfr part 571.120. He also said that title 47 statute weighing of vehicles that axle weight or gross weight exceeds the max weights by law the operator can be required to move or unload till the vehicle is within max weights.
Your clickie above didn't open so I don't know what your point is. If you open 390.5 page and click on the "interpret" word on the right hand side it opens intrepretation up to a Q&A. The missing door tag GVWR is Q&A #3.
Iv'e had more than one road side paper/weights/tie downs checks and went through many scale houses in other states when I towed commercially and have never been busted.
Lots of claims and counterclaims/bashing/personell remarks but no one has made a comment on the fed reg on missing door tag GVWR tag. Anyone care to make a guess ??
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Gunpilot77
Killeen, Tx
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JIMNLIN wrote:
Lots of claims and counterclaims/bashing/personell remarks but no one has made a comment on the fed reg on missing door tag GVWR tag. Anyone care to make a guess ??
That would be because their is no fed reg on missing door tags. The clickie takes you to the entire 390.5 The interpretation link is not a regulation and is not part of 390.5
The answer to your #1 is false, reread what the Lt. said about my GVWR on my trailer and about the max allowable weight on my pickup with tires over the original weight rating.
#2 does not apply, I was not refering to commercial registration. You were never busted at a weigh station because you were registered for the weights you were hauling. They could care less about the manufacturers GAWR. As non-commercial RVers we don't cross scales, but the 20,000 max per axle still applies. It is about damaging roads, not about a tag on the door piller or the trailer.
I had a feeling you wouldn't agree with the very people who you claim is the source for your misinformation. You would be a natural writer for the TV show Spin City if it was still on the air. You twist and turn and change your story so often that the intent of the thread is forgotten. Here it is in it's entirety;
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Some on this forum suggests that RAWR per the door sticker is legally binding by federal law. Specifically by para f of FMCSA:
(f) Except as provided herein, States may not enforce on the Interstate System vehicle weight limits of less than 20,000 pounds on a single axle, 34,000 pounds on a tandem axle, or the weights derived from the Bridge Formula, up to a maximum of 80,000 pounds, including all enforcement tolerances. States may not limit tire loads to less than 500 pounds per inch of tire or tread width, except that such limits may not be applied to tires on the steering axle. States may not limit steering axle weights to less than 20,000 pounds or the axle rating established by the manufacturer, whichever is lower.
The argument is that the last half of the last sentence "the axle rating established by the manufacturer, whichever is lower." is referring to the door sticker RAWR.
It is my contention that this actually refers to the "steering axle" which according to my English classes is the subject of the sentence. My contention is to find a standard relating to the rear axle in para f you have to refer back to the first sentence:
"States may not enforce on the Interstate System vehicle weight limits of less than 20,000 pounds on a single axle"
I would like to hear from LEO's who might have a comment on this subject. I would also love to hear from anyone who can post a copy of a citation issued for exceeding door sticker weight ratings. A link to the violated code would be nice also.
My only agenda here is to find out what really is and what really is not. I have intentionally omitted the names of those who make these claims because I want this to be about the law not people's claims.
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You add just enough fact to the mix to make your story almost believable. Take this in all sincerety because I truly mean it. I can only think of two other members of the forum that have less credibility than you. You crack me up, or else I wouldn't bother wasting my time on you.
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