tluxon
Kirkland, WA
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Remember the story of "The Sword and the Stone"? The sword wouldn't budge until it was pulled with just the right force and in just the right direction. Milt, if you apply a proper amount of force in the proper direction, the Hensley linkage by itself CAN pivot from either end. If I have time in the next few days I'll post something to try to illustrate the inadequacy of your come-along experiment.
Tim
Tim -
wife Beverly & 2 boys who love camping
2002 K2500 Suburban 8.1L 4.10 Prodigy
2005 Sunnybrook 30FKS HP Dual Cam
Replaced 2000 Sunnybrook 26FK on 8/6/04
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BurbMan
Indianapolis, IN
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Horse........still........breathing......*GASP*
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willald
NC
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Just for the moment, lets chill with the accusations of who is 'delusional' and who is not. We're all going to be, if we keep this thread up much longer. LOL! ![[emoticon]](http://www.coastresorts.com/sharedcontent/cfb/images/biggrin.gif "biggrin")
Milt's diagram may or may not prove anything, but the point he is getting at, I believe is indeed true, in a round-about way. When the Hensley is being pulled on, the 'pulling' makes it such that it would take an OBSCENE amount of force, for the trailer to induce pivoting either direction. This has the effect, of making it practically 'locked' from the trailer side. Although the linkages technically are not locked, the geometry of them, and the forces involved when pulling creates somewhat of a 'virtual' lock, from the trailer's perspective.
Can everyone agree on this, and the summarization I provided in the last post? If so (including Ron, lol), lets lock this thread and let this dead horse finally rest in peace. If not, then one of us is just going to have to build a model of some kind, to either prove or disprove this ('pulling' theory) once and for all. Otherwise, this 'dead horse' will never die. ![[emoticon]](http://www.coastresorts.com/sharedcontent/cfb/images/smile.gif "smile")
Will
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BurbMan
Indianapolis, IN
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Nooooooooooooo........don't lock the thread, Tim's got more to offer. I agree with Will, I think there's some merit to what each of us is saying. Milt has got a valid point, even though his proof may be flawed. Nobody is "delusional", we're just having difficulty reconciling the theoretical and the actual.
The problem is that we just keep restating our own points without trying to extend our own logic to meet the others' and see if there is something we can all agree on.
The answer is out there............(queue spooky music....)
Don
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jdwhittaker
York, SC
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Milt,
I see your picture as showing longitudinal force; it seems to me the forces that are most likely to be present in sway are lateral forces, which Ron has stated several times. You are correct in that the HA won't move with the type of force on it that your picture shows, it'll break before it moves, however it isn’t locked. I think that you are also correct in your assertion that simply pulling your HA mounted TT down the road assists some in the HA's stability, because as the HA moves through its range, the TT must move closer to the TV.
I particularly like Tim’s terminology describing the HA’s motion as trans-rotational, because it must rotate as it translates through it’s motion, also note that the rotational direction is opposite that which would allow sway. I also believe that Ron is correct in his assertion that the HA gets some of it’s stability by putting the lateral forces on the TT tires.
Imagine the following scenario…
You are driving along in the right lane of a 2 lane highway, pulling your HA mounted TT. A large truck passes you in the left lane. As the bow wave from the truck pushes the back of your TT to the right, it causes a CCW pivoting action about your TT’s axles. This in turn causes the front of the TT to attempt to swing to the left. As your HA moves to the left it has to rotate CW, because of the linkage. This CW rotation then loads the RH strut on the HA, which prevents any pivoting about the ball, and effectively ends the sway moment, unless the lateral forces that are put on the TT tires are so great that they cause the tires to loose traction.
I believe that if you were to take your HA mounted TV/TT to a flat smooth parking lot and put swiveling dollies under each of your TT wheels you would be able to swing your TT around behind your TV rather easily, it would just be in a very controlled path.
Hopefully I’ve explained my little scenario is clearly enough for everyone to understand, if not let me know.
Dave
Edited 9/6 to clarify the scenario part of the message
* This post was
edited 09/06/05 05:42pm by jdwhittaker *
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BurbMan
Indianapolis, IN
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Dave thanks for the post, I think we are getting closer on combining and summarizing the many thoughts/ideas in this looooong thread.
Will, forget the models!! What you need to do is put some dollies under your TT tires, go to Wal*Mart and do some turns while I videotape. Seriously, I think that would provide the proof that both Ron and Milt are looking for. Thanks for the suggestion, Dave.
Anybody have dollies or space (or time) to do this?
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willald
NC
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BurbMan wrote:Dave thanks for the post, I think we are getting closer on combining and summarizing the many thoughts/ideas in this looooong thread.
Will, forget the models!! What you need to do is put some dollies under your TT tires, go to Wal*Mart and do some turns while I videotape. Seriously, I think that would provide the proof that both Ron and Milt are looking for. Thanks for the suggestion, Dave.
Anybody have dollies or space (or time) to do this?
Yes, I think we are getting closer. I agree with Dave's post 100%, especially this part:
"I think that you are also correct in your assertion that simply pulling your HA mounted TT down the road assists some in the HA's stability, because as the HA moves through its range, the TT must move closer to the TV..."
Now, Don, I got a deal for you: If you'll come down here to run the videotape (and drink beer! LOL!), I'll get the dollies and put them under the trailer wheels, so we can try this out at the Walmart parking lot! LOL! AAMOF, there is a Winn Dixie that just closed less than 2 miles from my house, we can use their parking lot. Its completely empty. ![[emoticon]](http://www.coastresorts.com/sharedcontent/cfb/images/wink.gif "wink")
Actually, I think the model I described earlier, would be easier/cheaper to do, than putting dollies on the wheels of a trailer, and trying to swing it around. Besides, unless somebody is going to push on the trailer real hard to the side while its being towed through the parking lot at Walmart (with trailer wheels on dollies), I'm not sure that experiment would prove what we want it to prove. Sure would be hilarious to watch, though! LOL!
Will
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BurbMan
Indianapolis, IN
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Will, you missed the point.....no need to push on the side of the TT while it's moving. The dollies simply take away the TT's tires' ability to resist the lateral movement. So, as you drive the TV, and turn, the trailer is free to leave the arc led by the TV.
Ideally we would prove two things:
1) For the most part, the TT would follow the TV, even though the dollies eliminated any lateral resistance from the tires. So, the TT would still follow the course set by the TV, and behave like the HA was somehow "locking" the TT. (This is Milt's point. Happy Milt?)
2) Given the right conditions, the TT can move out of line from the TV as a result of no lateral resistance from the TT tires, proving that the TT can initiate movement in the 4-bar linkage. (This is Ron's point. Happy Ron?)
See what I mean Will?
BTW, I'm still coming over for a beer......
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Stressor
Whitefish Bay, Wisconsin
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JD, thanks for asserting that this is not locked, however, the photograph is real.
![[image]](http://home.ripway.com/2005-1/238631/Folder%20Name/Hensleytext006.JPG)
I have a 4000 pound come along attached to it, and it is under great tension, that would seem to indicate that it is locked, and of course, Hensley documentation and 4 bar theory both say that it is locked.
You have made an assertion that the trailer tires add to stability, and I have pointed out that this is not necessary and that the Hensley Arrow is not dependent on trailer tires to prevent sway. It is not, and as you can see in this picture, it is solidly locked up to input from the trailer end. The trailer tires are not attached.
I do not argue that tandem axles are sway preventives in themselves, but simply state that the Hensley Arrow does not need them to prevent sway, and that any such assertions are not credible without proof. The tandem axles do not need to be attached, as demonstrated above, and below. The hitch would operate as stated in Hensley literature if clamped in a vise.
Burbman, thanks for the vote of confidence. Which proof is flawed? And how is it flawed? The hitch is hanging free, in the air, and it is locked up.
Tluxon, I have been examined by experts and found to be sane.
I submit that this picture absolutely proves what I am saying it proves, and that anyone can demonstrate it provided that they have a real hitch and 30 minutes. I further submit that it is in keeping with what Hensley says on their website.
If you can demonstrate, in any way, that this is a figment of anyone's imagination, or that it is in anyway not in keeping with 4 bar theory, or that there are any other requirements for the hitch to function as it is described as functioning, please post them now. Make certain that there is a way to test your assertion, and that what you say can be demonstrated in the real world with a real hitch.
Milton Findley (and Kerene)
A small piece of my mind...
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tluxon
Kirkland, WA
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Stressor wrote:
This picture proves, real world, inarguably, that the Hensley hitch locks up from the travel trailer end.
...All forces from the trailer are applied to the hitch head by pushing the struts, and the photograph proves, by simulating a 4000 pound push on the left strut connection by a 4000 pound pull on the right connection, that the hitch is locked up, and that it will be destroyed before it unlocks... One thing I'd like to know, Milt, is how you concluded that pulling on the right connection simulates PUSHING on the left strut. Surely you understant that the 4-bar linkage does not rotate like a steering wheel (?).
BTW, "delusional" was meant tongue-in-cheek, but you're asserting that your picture proves something that it doesn't. I wonder if Hensley ever anticipated that a tow vehicle would ever be tugging on the hitch with 4000 pounds of force? I hope so to be sure you didn't do any unseen damage to your linkage. I doubt if even MY Burb could pull like that in 4-wheel drive low.
Tim
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