eyeteeth wrote:
I a man posting this again this morning because I still can't believe it. But testing the ignition module swap again this morning, she fired right up. Better than I can remember in a long while. Feeling pretty good about it. Need to track down an OEM module somehow I guess.
I a man posting this again this morning because I still can't believe it. But testing the ignition module swap again this morning, she fired right up. Better than I can remember in a long while. Feeling pretty good about it. Need to track down an OEM module somehow I guess.
Congratulations Eyeteeth! What did you change?
'79 Dodge Sportsman 5.9 LA 360 TEC Campmate
Ignition Control Modules ICMs
It is somewhat hokey with an animated drill Sargent narrating, but the explanation is helpful.
It looks like an overheating ICM can likely be the symptom of other electrical problems like coil, plugs, plug wires, distributor, etc. So just replacing the ICM may not solve the real issue.
This is because I, as well as many other people, sometimes get my focus locked on one possible part of the problem. Broadening my view to consider other parts often leads to the actual source of the problem, as opposed to what I've been concentrating on.
I've often found putting some space -- in terms of distance and time -- between myself and the problem gives my emotions and mind a much needed break. Looking at or actively thinking about the problem isn't a real break, so avoid doing that. (Engaging in a simple physical activity, such as cleaning, helps divert your attention.)
What I've described above is a skill ... difficult at first and becoming easier with practice.
You can discuss the problem over with other people and read related information. (Surprisingly, less experience people often lead to fresh insights and a different perspective.) Just don't actively engage in the core problem.
During these breaks, I keep a notepad handy to jot down random thoughts that pop up, to be pursued when I do wade back into the mystery.
If the break results in new insights or a fresh perspective, pursue those.
When I'm ready to wade back into the morass, I usually start by taking time to recap the situation. Actually jotting down the recap on paper tends to be most effective. So ...
-- The problem is intermittent.
-- The engine spins but the cylinders don't always fire up.
-- Changing the ICM sometimes causes the engine to fire up and sometimes doesn't.
This is the 'short list' recap, my recaps are usually longer. (If a recap is more than a handwritten page, I'm not thinking clearly and need a longer break.) Also, I'm not there, may not know everything that's relevant to your problem. For example, differences in ambient temperature and interval between starting attempts may be relevant.
Using the limited recap above ..
The starter is getting enough electrical current to crank the engine. The starter uses an incredible portion of available current. So, there may not always be enough left over for the ignition to 'do its thing.'
Something you're doing while changing the ICM may be the variable, rather than to ICM itself.
I'm going to leave it there for now, and close with a related thought.
I really hate seeing people throw money at a problem. This is inefficient and tends to work only if you have lots and lots of money.
I prefer to first find the source of the problem rather than dumping money on all the possible sources. (In the extreme, buying a new motorhome -- off a dealer's lot -- will solve your problem ... this tended to be my mom's approach to vehicle problems.)
However, throwing new parts at a problem can work, if done judiciously. It's important to note inexpensive parts are often the actual source of the problem.
More to come, following this line of thought.
1970 Explorer Class A on a 1969 Dodge M300 chassis with 318 cu. in. (split year)
1972 Executive Class A on a Dodge M375 chassis with 413 cu. in.
1973 Explorer Class A on a Dodge RM350 (R4) chassis with 318 engine & tranny from 1970 Explorer Class A
Throwing parts at a problem is the "brute force" method ... often effective but usually inefficient.
So, your ICM. Your old one is clearly questionable, so get a new one. Expect to pay around $60USD. I've surveyed the market and all that I'd trust are in that price range. As with Leeann, I'd go with what Mancini offers. (Knowledge and experience is preferable, especially if they also have good customer service ... and that's Mancini.)
Yes, the ones offered by Mancini, Summit, and Moparts are all the same ... and four pin rather than five. Changing from five pin to four is easy ... many, many people have done it since Mopar changed from five pin to four. Mostly because the four pin ICMs are the only ones readily available. (The circuitry is simpler, which is another point in favor of changing.)
There's ample -- consistent -- information on the web describing how to make the change. The four pin OEM circuit used the two terminal ballast resistor but you can stay with the four terminal version. Various info on the web details both approaches.
I'd be inclined to stay with the four terminal resistor, because they cost less than the two terminal version. (Counter intuitive but factual.)
Note: The Mopar electronic ignition was identical across a wide span of makes, models, engines, and years. If you get one from a junkyard, it doesn't matter if it came out of a Dodge, Chrysler, Plymouth, De Soto, or Fargo. (I'm fairly sure it was also used in Imperials.) Likewise, everything from compact cars to medium duty trucks, as well as both small and big block V8 engines. (If it stops raining, I'll go out and look at what's on the V6 Dakota parts donor in my yard.)
Also interesting is many people have reported finding lots of unused ballast resistors in the glove boxes of various vehicles in junkyards/
I have found one aftermarket ICM I could reasonably trust. I have experience with what the distributor offers and they have a track record of adequate quality assurance. However, the list price is close to the available Mopar Performance one. (Mancini and Moparts' prices are actually a bit less.)
More to follow ...
Griff wrote:
Whenever I encounter an especially frustrating mystery, I've developed a habit of standing back, taking a deep breath, and looking at the bigger picture. It doesn't matter if it's software systems, trucks, or whatever.
Whenever I encounter an especially frustrating mystery, I've developed a habit of standing back, taking a deep breath, and looking at the bigger picture. It doesn't matter if it's software systems, trucks, or whatever.
I write software for a living and I have the same problem. I find it very hard to walk away from a frustrating coding problem but after I do, and let my subconscious work on it, then the answer comes to me. I have had some great revelations while taking a shower!
As you mentioned, Griff, my ICM is very iffy--something that is leaking and looks like the original (38 years old) needs replacing. It also gives me a clue that maybe something else in the system caused it to overheat, so I should look for that too. I have already replaced the distributor cap, rotor, and I think plugs and plug wires (I can check my written log). I don't remember replacing the coil. I did replace all the battery cables. I don't mean that I just replaced these things, I did it when I got the RV awhile ago.
So, I think the coil is the first thing that needs checking out. Also all the grounds.
I spent an hour or so today looking at you-tube videos of how to troubleshoot ignition systems. Very helpful. Now I have to find some time to do some diagnostics.
First, even a cheap new ICM should work for a while. If it's failing right away or very soon, it's a symptom rather than a cause. Two or three new ICMs, even if cheap, shouldn't all fail to solve the problem. (Only once in the past 40+ years have I experienced three identical new components all fail to solve a problem -- when the component was the actual cause. In that case, the Air Force made the manufacturer issue a worldwide recall for that batch of components.)
Second, inadequate electrical current, especially in terms of voltage, causes devices to work harder ... and hotter. The fact your old ICM is oozing goop is a strong indication of this possibility. If this is what's happening, you need to solve the problem first ... because it will just cause the new ICM to overheat and leak.
(One of the people who worked for me in the Air Force fried five new components, in rapid succession, because he was convince the component was the problem ... and taxpayers had to eat the cost.)
IIRC, you stated your battery was good and fully charged. Have you actually had it tested or are effectively assuming it's good. Some batteries will appear to accept a full charge but go dead quickly after being removed from the charger. Identifying this condition requires sophisticated charger/test equipment, which many parts stores have. (I have a ton of experience to back up this contention.)
You can -- sort of -- test this yourself. Charge up the battery until the charger indicates fully charged, remove from the charger, wait 24 hours, and use a voltmeter to measure remaining charge. This will identify a battery that's definitely bad but may not catch one that's iffy.
Still more to come ...
Thank you for confirming what I said, especially in terms of computer programming.
The worst case I know of is a civilian programmer I worked with in the Air Force in the mid- to late-seventies. He'd been struggling with a difficult software development problem for several weeks. One night, as he was 'getting busy with his wife,' the solution hit him. He rolled off, turned on the light, wrote several pages of notes/code, turned off the light, and tried to resume where he'd left off.
He was so relieved to find a solution it took him several days (and explanations from his coworkers) to understand why his wife told him exactly what he could do with his computer.
(Yes, computer programmers are weird creatures ... that's why I call everyone else 'real people.')
TreeSeeker - please, please describe what you're doing in this thread ... and the ultimate solution ... so other people can learn from your experiences.