BertP
Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
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Joined: 11/07/2003
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Quote:It's great that so many gas and diesel owners are happy. I just dropped off our large excavator after pulling it with our dump truck. To pull really large loads the only choices are diesel powered. Why is that? Why is it that all of our heavy equipment is diesel powered? Why aren't there any good gas powered pieces of heavy equipment? As many gas fans will be quick to point out, the diesles in our pickups aren't the same as what are in heavy trucks or equipment, but they certainly have similarities. Quote:
There are still trucks available with gas engines in them, so diesel is not the only type of engine available.
Quote:There is a real lack of logic at times when folks choose to knock the diesel pickup. If you're happy with gas, that is fantastic, if it works well for you and you are satisfied, that is great.
Unless you call criticizing them because of the stink and the mess caused by the fuel knocking them, I don't think I remember seeing anyone knock the diesels.
Quote:There are valid reasons why heavy trucks and heavy construction equipment are diesel powered, and there are no gas alternatives though. I have an equipment trailer setting in our yard with a 450 setting on it. If anyone has a gas powered rig that they think can move it, bring it on over and we'll let you hook up to it. Or maybe there is a gas powered, heavy duty truck that I'm not aware of? Tell me of a gas powered excavator that I can replace our 120 with.
Any gas powered heavy duty truck will pull that excavator all over the country. There are still many gas powered dump trucks and 5 & 10 ton delivery trucks around the country.
Quote:I applaud those that are happy with their gas trucks. Just please quit trying to use nonexistent logic to explain why a gas engine can outwork a diesel engine.
No non existant logic here, Jeff. With the exception of burning diesel fuel, there is nothing you can do with a diesel that you cannot do with an equivalent power gasoline engine. Yes, the diesel will get better fuel consumption numbers (the one and only reason most heavy duty vehicles in NA have diesels), but the performance will be exactly the same if they are geared properly. And a heavy duty gas engine will last just as long as a heavy duty diesel if used and maintained the same way. There is nothing magical about diesels.
Bert
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JIMNLIN
Oklahoma
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Joined: 09/14/2003
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Bert
gas dump trucks that work for a living are a thing of the past!!
Care to name a HD gasser in a pickup that can match the Cummins/Dodge fleet average of 350,000 mi before overhaul ?
JIM
* This post was
edited 09/30/04 06:36pm by JIMNLIN *
"good judgment comes from experience, and a lot of that comes from bad judgment" ............ Will Rogers
'03 2500 QC Dodge/Cummins HO 3.73 6 speed manual Jacobs Westach
'97 Park Avanue 28' 5er 11200 two slides
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BertP
Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
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Quote:Bert
gas dump trucks that work for a living are a thing of the past!!
I didn't question that. I just said that there still are some around (and being built) and that is true. The problem I see is that people make a statement that the majority of HD trucks are diesel (which is true) and then infer from that that there is something special about diesels. Somehow, people got it in their heads that 350 diesel HP is the equivalent of 700 gasser HP. That is absolute hogwash. 350 HP is 350 HP regardless of what is developing it. Certainly, a 350 HP Cat C12 will last longer than a 350 HP souped up motorcycle engine, but while both are alive, they will be able to exactly the same amount of work.
It has been stated a few times on these forums that the fuel consumption issue is a wash because if you can't afford the fuel, you shouldn't be RVing. While there is some truth to that, the fact that diesels can get 30%+ better fuel economy than gassers is an important point. It won't make that big a difference to me as an individual on an annual basis, but if I own a company with a few hundred or thousand trucks, that 30%+ translates into millions of dollars per year in fuel costs over gassers. So, which engine do you think I would choose? It's a no brainer. Strictly economics.
Quote: Care to name a HD gasser in a pickup that can match the Cummins/Dodge fleet average of 350,000 mi before overhaul ?
JIM
I can't. But what has that to do with the subject line? The fact that the Cummins in a Dodge will last 350,000 miles before overhaul has nothing to do with the fact that it is a diesel and everything to do with the fact that it is a medium duty engine. If the Hemi was designed to the same specs, it would last just as long. But it would also suffer from the same ailment the Cummins has: weight. I have posted a few times that I almost bought a 2003 Dodge 2500 CTD QC Laramie 4X4 but, in spite of the fact that my 1500HD 6.0 gasser fully loaded could handle my 5er with about 600 - 700 lb to spare before GVW, the Dodge would have been a couple of hundred lb over its GVW when the 5er was empty. That's not knocking the CTD, just recognizing the fact that you would have to have a 3500 series Dodge before you could match the payload capability of my 1500HD gasser because of the CTD's weight. I don't doubt that there were probably some other things that added to the weight, but the CTD is quite heavy.
Bert
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JIMNLIN
Oklahoma
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Your the one that brought up the HD gas will be as reliable as a diesel. The subject line is gas vs. diesel and will your 1500 tow 13350 lbs with 20000 GCWR as my Dodge will. This is a RV/tow vehicle forum. The Cummins diesel WILL out work any gas engine in a light duty truck and do it longer and cheaper . According to hot shoters at the truck stop gas can't compete in the towing world.......JIM
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BertP
Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
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Jim - My quip about the subject line was intended to point out that we are comparing diesels to gassers not medium duty to light duty engines. My initial response was to address your claim that a gasser cannot pull a trailer you have with a 450 on it. That simply isn't true. As for your Dodge having a GCVW of 20,000 lb, so does a Chevy with an 8.1 liter gasser. Will the 8.1 last as long as the CTD? No. Not because it is a gasser but because it is a light duty engine. Just as the DMax and PSD are rated as high as or higher than a CTD, they will also not last as long as the CTD because they, too, are light duty engines. Plus, what would happen if a turbo was added to the 8.1 like the CTD has? It would drag any CTD all over the back 40 without a problem. If you consider the weight difference between the 8.1 and the CTD, you will see that an 8.1 engined vehicle has a greater payload capacity than a similar CTD engined vehicle and it will out work the CTD.
I have a class 1 (class A in most places) drivers license and have spent time in and around diesels and gassers most of my life. I am not knocking diesels just pointing out that many of the long held beliefs about diesels are not necessarily true. Many knock gassers using claims that can't stand the light of day. The only real advantage that a diesel has over a gasser is in the area of fuel consumption. If the engineers were to develop a gasser that gets better fuel consumption numbers than diesels, you would see a resurgence of gas powered HD trucks because of the saving available in fuel costs. As I mentioned above, it is simple economics.
Bert
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JIMNLIN
Oklahoma
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Bert
I don't believe I mentioned anything about a 450/ gasser thing so I can't comment.
Put a turbo on a 8.1 gasser thats out there today and it will have a very short life in the real world of pullin', towin', where the torque of the diesel will out work any of the gas engines in our T/V's in the market . Out here in the real world of workin' these trucks gas doesn't compete for long term reliability, fuel consumption and ease of movin' big loads cross country.
Next time your at a truck stop check with the boys thats driving 3500 trucks that hooked up to 25-30000 lbs and try tellin' them an 8.1 will out work a diesel.
......JIM
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Brewster
Calgary, Alberta, Canada
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Joined: 06/23/2003
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I'm sorry, Jimnlin, your story about logevity just doesn't hold up.
I'm on my fourth straight gas vehicle, well on its way to 350,000 miles, and I expect it to exceed 400,000, just like the other three. All of those vehicles were traded in not because the engine couldn't tow, or because the engine was worn out, but because the body couldn't take any more or they lacked features I needed.
As others have stated, commercial vehicles use a high percentage of Diesels because of fuel economy considerations, and because noise/smell/poor starting, etc. are not issues in vehicles that are used in the field constantly. By the way, I believe that constant running is the reason for much of those engine's long life, not any inherent advantage... A lot of wear is avoided if an engine stays warm.
Newer diesels are starting to catch up in terms of noise and smell, but they haven't made it yet... Now if they could do something about the price, I might consider one... Maybe...
Sold my big Trailer, looking for something smaller.
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BertP
Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
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Quote:Bert
I don't believe I mentioned anything about a 450/ gasser thing so I can't comment.
The part I was referring to was where you said "I have an equipment trailer setting in our yard with a 450 setting on it. If anyone has a gas powered rig that they think can move it, bring it on over and we'll let you hook up to it.". As an example, a couple of years ago, I needed a new septic field installed at my place so I hired an outfit to dig one. They showed up with a tandem dump truck pulling an equipment trailer on which was a JD back hoe. The engine in the truck? A gasser. I know that a back hoe is not as heavy as an excavator, but the gasser handled the back hoe just fine, so it should handle the 450 without a problem as well.
OnEdit: My apologies, Jim. I confused your post with one made by Jeff. I see now that you did not make any comments about a 450.
Quote:Put a turbo on a 8.1 gasser thats out there today and it will have a very short life in the real world of pullin', towin', where the torque of the diesel will out work any of the gas engines in our T/V's in the market.
I think you would be surprised. I was camping last spring and the guy beside me had a 2002 GMC 2500HD CC 8.1/Allison. He had installed a supercharger (Whipple, I think) and said he was getting 525HP and somewhere around 800 lb ft of torque. But, even without any addition to the engine, the 8.1 will pull with any diesel and will last as long as any of the light duty diesels if maintained properly.
Quote:Out here in the real world of workin' these trucks gas doesn't compete for long term reliability, fuel consumption and ease of movin' big loads cross country.
Again, you are comparing light duty engines to medium or heavy duty engines. Someone mentioned in another thread about the stationary diesels they work on. Those engines are designed to work for the equivalent of around a million miles before an overhaul is required. That makes the engines in the OTR and other HD trucks look like wimpy little short lived whiny lawn mower engines. It all depends where you start from. The engines in the large trucks last longer than our engines not because they are diesel but because they are heavy duty.
Brewster has a point as well. I heard the other day that the taxis in New York have an oil change every 20,000 to 25,000 miles. When I heard that, I thought, no way, they would be destroyed in no time. But, think about it. Those engines are almost never shut off because the drivers work in shifts. As a result, they never have to run starved of oil - as happens every time you start a cold engine gas or diesel - and they never have to contend with all of the crud that precipitates in the crankcase of any engine that is not running. Those engines are in pristine condition. The same is true for the big trucks. Their engines are almost never shut off either, so they rarely have to endure the torture that our car and pickup engines go through many times a day.
Quote:Next time your at a truck stop check with the boys thats driving 3500 trucks that hooked up to 25-30000 lbs and try tellin' them an 8.1 will out work a diesel.
......JIM
The fact that those people would not accept a statement as true does not make it false. An 8.1 will work just as hard as any non chipped diesel and harder than many. It will outpull just about any stock pickup available and will last just as long as any light duty diesel doing it. The problem with the gassers is fuel consumption. If your truck is used in a commercial capacity, that translates into $'s. If your truck is pulling an RV, that translates into shorter legs between fillups. Either way, diesels come out on top as far as fuel is concerned.
In any event, why are there 3500 series trucks pulling 25 - 30,000 lb when they are not rated anywhere near that high? Regardless of what engine you have under the hood, the entire truck must be rated for those weights before it is safe or legal.
Bert
* This post was
edited 10/02/04 05:59am by BertP *
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lkazanov
Woodbine, MD
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OK....I will throough in my 2 cents worth (seems everybody has LOL).
BertP is correct in the pulling aspects of gas vs diesel. Indeed, the 8.1L will pull just about anything with the right gearing. This also applied to a motorcycle engine example that was brought up earlier.
But our readers need to keep the following in mind....engine issues aside (ie light duty vs medium duty, longevty, etc.)
Pound for pound, diesel will produce more energy then gasoline. This is based on the fuel properties alone, nothing to do with cummins vs powersroke vs duramax vs 8.1L gasoline.
A prime example...40% of all passenger vehicles sold in Europe are diesel. If you look at all the brands available to European buyers there will always be a diesel engine available. That even includes Land Rovers, Merecedes Benz, etc. he Europeans also benefit from much, much cleaner diesel fuels.
The diesel engine by its simple physics is a superior engine. In the sense that it derives more energy from the same pound of fuel as a gasoline engine. Now one may argue that a diesel is heavier and that a vehicle needs to carry more weight. But that is an engineering standpoint and will be rectified through stronger and lighter materials.
Folks...the future is diesel. The European car makers are trying to make us understand. We will soon see the first diesel powered mid SUV, the Liberty, be made available here. VW has had diesel choices available here as long as I can remeber, the Rabbit. Once the public perception changes as to the smell, noise factors of OLD diesel technology then we will see more and more diesel.
BertP you also mentioned economics of gas vs diesel. You seemed to downplay this for an individual but made it more important for fleet buyers. We only have a certain amount of dead dinosuars available to make fossil fuels. This is not an infinite supply. Diesel makes the most energy from every drop of fuel it sees. That is simple physics.
Thank you for having an educated discussion.
LK
2005 Granite Ridge 3100 SS
2005 Nissan Frontier (toad)
Blue Ox Alexus, Roadmster Brackets
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JIMNLIN
Oklahoma
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Brewster
I don't think your trucks make a fleet average for big block gas engines. Sounds like 350000 mi on your 2000 truck you'v done a good job on maintance and at 87000 mi a year you do a lot of towing. Motorhome mag had a article a few years back on the 454/460 in different M/H's and they were runnin',on average, 60-80000 mi before rebuild.
Bert
A Whipple on a 8.1 would be a great street truck but wouldn't last long as a tow truck. The 8.1 hasn't been out long enough to have a average mi before rebuild rep yet. Interesting theory on 8.1 out pullin' the Cummins as there are two 8.1 GMCs, that tow with our group and they can out accelerate me , from a dead stop, but out on the road going into a strong head wind or pullin' long grades they fall back because they don't like high RPM they have to run to keep up. Yes and I do have the bigger load.
Back in the old 348/409, 396/427 dump truck days that I drove as a young man we had these same arguments . They are now old dinosaurs now just like the 8.1/v10s will be in a HD pickup in the very near future......JIM
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