transamz9
Lawrenceburg Ky
Senior Member
Joined: 07/27/2010
View Profile
 Offline
|
Sport45 wrote:rhagfo wrote:
Some don't need diesel, some do!
I disagree. Nobody "needs" diesel. Some just want it, can afford it, and like it. Gas engines will get you anywhere a diesel can.
My next truck will be a diesel 4x4 without a doubt. But not because I "need" it. I'm just at a place in my life now (kids out of college, nearing retirement, etc.) that I can afford to pamper myself a bit.
If I don't like the diesel I'll go back to gas. That decision will be made in the next few years.
If somebody was to put a ~5 liter turbocharged gasoline engine in a 1-ton for significantly less upgrade price than the diesel that is probably the way I'd go. With a modest 8 psi of boost it would act like a 7.5 liter at sea level even on the higest mountain pass. It wouldn't get the miles per gallon of a diesel, but the cost per mile would be close enough for me.
So if you were full timing and towing 18-20,000# through the mountains you would still go with the high revving turbo gasser?
2016 Ram 3500 Mega Cab Limited/2013 Ram 3500 SRW Cummins(sold)/2005 RAM 2500 Cummins/2011 Sandpiper 345 RET (sold) 2015 Sanibel 3601/2008 Nitro Z9 Mercury 250 PRO XS the best motor made.
|
Sport45
Not far enough from Houston, TX
Senior Member
Joined: 09/24/2001
View Profile
Offline
|
transamz9 wrote:
So if you were full timing and towing 18-20,000# through the mountains you would still go with the high revving turbo gasser?
Yes.
And from what I've read the turbo gasser wouldn't necessarily need to be high revving. The 3.5 EB that Ford is putting in half tons delivers its power at reasonable rpm's.
The trailers we've been looking at max out at about 13,000#. Haven't considered anything as heavy as 18-20,000#, but I'd bet a paycheck a 5 liter turbo gas engine would get it up any mountain a diesel would, and with less boost as well. Don't the 6.5 to 7 liter diesels need about 30 psi of boost to perform better than their gas counterparts? That's like running a 20 liter NA diesel.
|
64thunderbolt
Az
Senior Member
Joined: 06/18/2012
View Profile
Offline
|
Depends on how often you want to rebuild the eng or buy a new truck.
As well as how you want to pull. 90% or more of my towing is between 1100' elev @ home and 7400' @ camp. So I see the gassers gasping on 10+ miles of 6/7% on 2 lane rd with a half mile jam behind them. Just a few passing lanes that are short and very limited places to pull over to allow the traffic go.
Second. I don't wan't or need a new truck every 2 yrs. I've had mine about 8 yrs and plan on it being the last one I buy. I have only put 50K on it since purchased. At that rate it will surely out live me. No payment, high ins & tags for me. I'll spend the savings on fuel anf tow comfortably.
But everyones needs & desires are different. If not only one truck would be offered and we would miss all this fun conversation. Just remember to keep your gassers to the right please.
Glen
04 Tail gator XT 34' 5th wheel garage model
200w solar 2 GC2's 800w inv
Truma tankless WH
99 F350 CC DRW 7.3 ais intake, adrenaline hpop, JW valve body,
cooling mist water inj, DP tunes, 4" exh sys
trucool trans cooler added
2011 RZR 900xp
|
Sport45
Not far enough from Houston, TX
Senior Member
Joined: 09/24/2001
View Profile
Offline
|
64thunderbolt wrote:Depends on how often you want to rebuild the eng or buy a new truck.
My 13 year old V-10 F-250 is still running fine with 160,000 miles on the clock. Granted, the only "mountains" I've pulled were in West Texas and the Hill Country, but it's had a hard life otherwise with two teenage drivers breaking out in it. Lord only knows what they did when they were out at night...
64thunderbolt wrote:As well as how you want to pull. 90% or more of my towing is between 1100' elev @ home and 7400' @ camp. So I see the gassers gasping on 10+ miles of 6/7% on 2 lane rd with a half mile jam behind them. Just a few passing lanes that are short and very limited places to pull over to allow the traffic go.
How many of those gasping gassers had the turbo I mentioned? If I recall, the naturally aspirated diesels used to own the slow lane. It was the turbo that made the difference, not the fuel.
64thunderbolt wrote:Second. I don't wan't or need a new truck every 2 yrs. I've had mine about 8 yrs and plan on it being the last one I buy. I have only put 50K on it since purchased. At that rate it will surely out live me. No payment, high ins & tags for me. I'll spend the savings on fuel anf tow comfortably.
I keep mine a long time too. My '92 F-150 had 233,000 miles on it when I traded it in. They will all last a long time if you take care of 'em.
64thunderbolt wrote:But everyones needs & desires are different. If not only one truck would be offered and we would miss all this fun conversation. Just remember to keep your gassers to the right please.
Yes, indeed. You just have to understand the difference between "needs" and "desires". When I buy my next truck it will be more about my desires than my needs. ![[emoticon]](http://www.coastresorts.com/sharedcontent/cfb/images/wink.gif "wink")
* This post was
edited 09/23/13 03:52am by Sport45 *
|
transamz9
Lawrenceburg Ky
Senior Member
Joined: 07/27/2010
View Profile
Offline
|
Sport45 wrote:transamz9 wrote:
So if you were full timing and towing 18-20,000# through the mountains you would still go with the high revving turbo gasser?
Yes.
And from what I've read the turbo gasser wouldn't necessarily need to be high revving. The 3.5 EB that Ford is putting in half tons delivers its power at reasonable rpm's.
The trailers we've been looking at max out at about 13,000#. Haven't considered anything as heavy as 18-20,000#, but I'd bet a paycheck a 5 liter turbo gas engine would get it up any mountain a diesel would, and with less boost as well. Don't the 6.5 to 7 liter diesels need about 30 psi of boost to perform better than their gas counterparts? That's like running a 20 liter NA diesel.
The Eco makes it's torque at 2500 but it still has to sing to get to it's hp. If the Eco is so great, why haven't they put it in a HD? If a large turbo gas would be so great, why don't the semis run them?
I'm not saying that a gas won't pull with a diesel or that a diesel is a better engine than a gas engine, i'm just saying that a diesel engine does the work easier and more efficient so if you need a motor to do this then you "have to" have a diesel.
|
|
|
OhhWell
Florida
Senior Member
Joined: 06/27/2011
View Profile
Good Sam RV Club Member
Offline
|
I wish that they would offer small turbo or super chargers on gas engines in HD trucks. For high altitude mainly of course. Gas engines already have way more power liter for liter than diesel.
What I'd also love to see would be a larger and more powerful version of the atkinson cycle engine with a hybrid drive (like the Prius) for trucks. Then you could have the thermal efficiency of a diesel engine with the lower fuel and maintenance cost of gasoline.
1998 bounder 36s V10 F53
|
Sport45
Not far enough from Houston, TX
Senior Member
Joined: 09/24/2001
View Profile
Offline
|
My father in law loved his 6.2 liter diesel Suburban pulling a 26' TT for its fuel efficiency. But I doubt many here would rave about it. It was a real slug on the hills.
There's nothing magical about diesel, it's the turbo that makes the difference and allows you to burn more fuel when you need the power. I think we will be seeing more forced induction gas engines in the future. The current EB isn't big enough for HD (pickup) trucks IMO. But as emission specs get tighter and it becomes more difficult and expensive for diesel fueled rigs to meet them we will probably see some changes. Heck, you may even start seeing LPG powered rigs on the interstate. Nothing I am aware of can be tuned to burn cleaner than a single component fuel.
|
Proteus
Seattle
Full Member
Joined: 06/22/2013
View Profile
Offline
|
OhhWell wrote:I wish that they would offer small turbo or super chargers on gas engines in HD trucks. For high altitude mainly of course. Gas engines already have way more power liter for liter than diesel.
It's not power that matters when towing, it's torque, and there is nothing that even comes close to the torque/liter of a good TDI engine. The Bluetec for example gets 455ft-lbs out of 3L, and when it's not towing, also gets 30mpg on the highway. You can't even come close to that with a gasser. Yes, a gas engine would have more power, the same bluetec "only" gets 240hp, but it's plenty for passing at 80+ without a trailer, and of course, it's never safe to go above 65 towing anyways. You can also add that diesels run cooler, at lower rpms, and tend to last significantly longer.
|
Steakman
Calgary, Alberta
Senior Member
Joined: 06/01/2003
View Profile
Offline
|
Wow... I cannot believe that this thread is still ongoing...been through 3 different trailers since I first posted on it..LOL.
Well all I can add at this time is that now, at 250,000 miles, many a gasser would be sitting by the wayside...and I can say with good certainty, my truck will still be pulling whatever trailer I have well into the future. $ for $, and if you can afford the up front cost & know your way around a set of metric wrenches, diesel is the way to go - handsdown.
The one thing I would really like to see in our country and province in particular is a set of regulations ensuring that those that pull, are pulling with a vehicle designed to pull said trailer and have the proper hitching system installed and in use.
Too often on the Highways of Alberta and BC I see a Front Wheel drive SUV pulling a ~23+ trailer and even though it may be set up with a Class IV hitch, the thing is usually weighed down by passengers (wife+kids) 4 bikes on the back and to me looks like an accident waiting to happen.
my $ .02 at this stage of the thread. I'll be back....
stk
M'self and the Bride...of 32 yrs
'06 GMC DMax CCSB 594,545 km (368,890 miles)
2003 Citation 26RKS.
|
64thunderbolt
Az
Senior Member
Joined: 06/18/2012
View Profile
Offline
|
Sport45, i agree but a gas eng is not built heavy enough to last several hundred thousand miles towing hard under boost. The bottom end won't last.
Another thing people don't realize is the wgt of the rotating mass. The rotating mass in a diesel is much heavier than a gasser. Once @ the needed rpm that wgt will keep it turning where a light wgt gass eng will start falling off. Remember the very old 3 cyl John Deere's? The huge flywheel on the side? That's what gave them the torque needed to do the job.
My 7.3 is arould 17/18 to 1 comp. Put that into a gasser and the bottom end won't last.
Compare it to a Nascar eng. The speedway eng runs about 16 to 1 Lucky to get 500 miles out of a $100K eng. Not going to go half a mil.
Lastly check into the hp per btu difference between gas & #2.
And to ans another comment someone made about boost. I only run about 20/22 psi. I have a small oem turbo & inj and run conversative tunes.
I'm not trying to sway anyone. Just stating the reasons I would never tow heavy in any terrain other than flat with a gasser. I run these mtns every trip in summer for over 15 yrs and started with a gasser. I know the difference.
One more thing to add then I'm outa here.
How could you cool a boosted gasser? I mean intake air? Intercooler. Well, after you make it work you are almost @ the cost of a diesel and are going to only get maybe 30% @ very most life out of it compared to the diesel.
|
|
|
