way2roll
Wilmington NC
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time2roll wrote:mosseater wrote:I think we should try steam again as well. Yes and fired with coal or heavy sulfur crude ![[emoticon]](http://www.coastresorts.com/sharedcontent/cfb/images/wink.gif "wink")
Anyone know the range of a steam train engine before needing water?
Farther than an EV. :-)
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way2roll
Wilmington NC
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Reisender wrote:Fisherman wrote:I don't know how they can claim zero emissions, how much emissions were made in the construction/production of them and how (ow) much?
I’m not sure what you are asking. During the operation of the vehicle there are no exhaust emissions.
Emissions during manufacture are a different metric and are easy to find and compare on the web.
That's the biggest catch phrase of the EV argument - "zero emissions". most of the sales pitch and metrics for EV's is tailpipe emissions - there is no tailpipe.
There's a TON of conflicting and manipulated information as to the ecological impacts of EV production and end of life. There's also humanitarian impacts and resource availability. You don't hear much about the latter 2. But resources required for EV production are limited- more so than the materials for ICE production. Dependency of foreign nations for materials is also a major factor. The energy grid will be leveraged proportionate to the decline of gasoline. That requires infrastructure and demand - both of those will impact consumer cost and taxes. I'm already seeing articles on how it costs more to charge an EV than the cost to fill up an ICE. Again, we haven't solved anything. Just traded old problems for new ones and to produce a product that to date is inferior in performance with respect to tow vehicles. But that's what's been decided on our path. There is no choice.
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Reisender
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way2roll wrote:Reisender wrote:Fisherman wrote:I don't know how they can claim zero emissions, how much emissions were made in the construction/production of them and how (ow) much?
I’m not sure what you are asking. During the operation of the vehicle there are no exhaust emissions.
Emissions during manufacture are a different metric and are easy to find and compare on the web.
That's the biggest catch phrase of the EV argument - "zero emissions". most of the sales pitch and metrics for EV's is tailpipe emissions - there is no tailpipe.
There's a TON of conflicting and manipulated information as to the ecological impacts of EV production and end of life. There's also humanitarian impacts and resource availability. You don't hear much about the latter 2. But resources required for EV production are limited- more so than the materials for ICE production. Dependency of foreign nations for materials is also a major factor. The energy grid will be leveraged proportionate to the decline of gasoline. That requires infrastructure and demand - both of those will impact consumer cost and taxes. I'm already seeing articles on how it costs more to charge an EV than the cost to fill up an ICE. Again, we haven't solved anything. Just traded old problems for new ones and to produce a product that to date is inferior in performance with respect to tow vehicles. But that's what's been decided on our path. There is no choice.
Ok. But the easy answer is just not to buy one if it doesn’t suit you. Obviously many people prefer the tech, performance and convenience of an EV. It’s probably what makes them the number one selling car in the world.
For others it’s the wrong fit and they buy something else. Drive what you love and love what you drive.
As far as tow vehicles just buy a gas or diesel vehicle if that’s what you need. Presently electric tow vehicles are fine for small low profile trailers. I’m sure that will change a lot in the next 5 years. If you have a bigger trailer there is a large choice of gas and diesel vehicles.
Cheers.
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way2roll
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Reisender wrote:way2roll wrote:Reisender wrote:Fisherman wrote:
Ok. But the easy answer is just not to buy one if it doesn’t suit you. Obviously many people prefer the tech, performance and convenience of an EV. It’s probably what makes them the number one selling car in the world.
For others it’s the wrong fit and they buy something else. Drive what you love and love what you drive.
As far as tow vehicles just buy a gas or diesel vehicle if that’s what you need. Presently electric tow vehicles are fine for small low profile trailers. I’m sure that will change a lot in the next 5 years. If you have a bigger trailer there is a large choice of gas and diesel vehicles.
Cheers.
EV's are the number one car selling in the world? Where are you getting your information? Currently - even with an increase in sales that has once again slowed - EV's sales make up 7% of the market share. It's not even possible with current production to make them the number one selling vehicle. Not even close.
Once again you miss my overarching point - it's not just about what I want or don't want to buy. These initiatives put me on the hook to pay for them whether I want to buy one or not. My opinion doesn't matter. It's being forced instead of organic free market. EV's are being mandated at the consumer and manufacturer level. I guess it's fine if they up your taxes and cost of electricity, and landfill fees etc to support the initiative if you agree with it.
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Reisender
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way2roll wrote:Reisender wrote:way2roll wrote:Reisender wrote:Fisherman wrote:
Ok. But the easy answer is just not to buy one if it doesn’t suit you. Obviously many people prefer the tech, performance and convenience of an EV. It’s probably what makes them the number one selling car in the world.
For others it’s the wrong fit and they buy something else. Drive what you love and love what you drive.
As far as tow vehicles just buy a gas or diesel vehicle if that’s what you need. Presently electric tow vehicles are fine for small low profile trailers. I’m sure that will change a lot in the next 5 years. If you have a bigger trailer there is a large choice of gas and diesel vehicles.
Cheers.
EV's are the number one car selling in the world? Where are you getting your information? Currently - even with an increase in sales that has once again slowed - EV's sales make up 7% of the market share. It's not even possible with current production to make them the number one selling vehicle. Not even close.
Once again you miss my overarching point - it's not just about what I want or don't want to buy. These initiatives put me on the hook to pay for them whether I want to buy one or not. My opinion doesn't matter. It's being forced instead of organic free market. EV's are being mandated at the consumer and manufacturer level. I guess it's fine if they up your taxes and cost of electricity, and landfill fees etc to support the initiative if you agree with it.
Possibly poorly worded on my part. The number one selling car in the world is the tesla model Y.
“For the first time, an electric vehicle – the Tesla Model Y – became the world's best-selling car, at least for the first quarter of 2023, topping the Toyota Corolla and Toyota RAV4, according to data from JATO Dynamics published by Motor1.”
I’m not aware of anywhere that forces you to buy an EV but I’m not an American. Maybe you have different rules there. Here you can buy whatever car or truck you want. Where do you live that you are being forced to buy an EV tow vehicle?
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way2roll
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Reisender wrote:
Possibly poorly worded on my part. The number one selling car in the world is the tesla model Y.
“For the first time, an electric vehicle – the Tesla Model Y – became the world's best-selling car, at least for the first quarter of 2023, topping the Toyota Corolla and Toyota RAV4, according to data from JATO Dynamics published by Motor1.”
I’m not aware of anywhere that forces you to buy an EV but I’m not an American. Maybe you have different rules there. Here you can buy whatever car or truck you want. Where do you live that you are being forced to buy an EV tow vehicle?
Facts are slippery things and it requires you to do a little due diligence rather than take the word of someone with a vested interest.
Autoweek article - Is Tesla Model Y The ........Best-Selling Car? Nope, Not Even Close.
And I am not sure why you can't grasp the financial impact to people who do not want to buy EV's. When the government mandates and pumps Billions into auto makers to force them to produce EV's, or when infrastructure has to be updated to support EV's, Or landfills have to update their practices, the list goes on and on - who do you think pays for that? Every single American who files taxes despite 93% of them NOT buying an EV - that's who.
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Grit dog
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^While your viewpoints are generally well informed, I think your time above the Maple Syrup curtain is beginning to brainwash you with the socialism.
You know darn well what he’s talking about in the post above. And no, no one is forcing you to buy an EV…..today. But at the rate it’s going, that will be the case in the next decade, maybe 2, tops.
Fine by me, IF the overall cost and convenience are comparable. Which as of now, not even close, except maybe for high mile local commuter cars. And wholly impractical or even impossible in other scenarios beyond the commutermobile.
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Reisender
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way2roll wrote:Reisender wrote:
Possibly poorly worded on my part. The number one selling car in the world is the tesla model Y.
“For the first time, an electric vehicle – the Tesla Model Y – became the world's best-selling car, at least for the first quarter of 2023, topping the Toyota Corolla and Toyota RAV4, according to data from JATO Dynamics published by Motor1.”
I’m not aware of anywhere that forces you to buy an EV but I’m not an American. Maybe you have different rules there. Here you can buy whatever car or truck you want. Where do you live that you are being forced to buy an EV tow vehicle?
Facts are slippery things and it requires you to do a little due diligence rather than take the word of someone with a vested interest.
Autoweek article - Is Tesla Model Y The ........Best-Selling Car? Nope, Not Even Close.
And I am not sure why you can't grasp the financial impact to people who do not want to buy EV's. When the government mandates and pumps Billions into auto makers to force them to produce EV's, or when infrastructure has to be updated to support EV's, Or landfills have to update their practices, the list goes on and on - who do you think pays for that? Every single American who files taxes despite 93% of them NOT buying an EV - that's who.
Yah. No. Toyota is playing with the numbers and including a variety of models and body styles that loosely fall under Corolla umbrella. No publication agrees with that article and it was generally considered busted.
If people don’t want to buy an EV they shouldn’t. Lots of choices out there. That simple.
Auto manufacturers are putting billions into EV development because people want them. Any manufacturer that doesn’t is gone within two decades. Stellantis CEO has come right out and said it can’t be done and cars would have to start at 70,000 for them to make money. Meanwhile tesla sells them at 37000 ish dollars and has healthy margins. And the upcoming model 2 will be in the mid twenties.
Infrastructure is ongoing anywhere and changes with technology. Most countries are not having problems adapting their infrastructure.
I didn’t understand the reference to landfills. Cars here are generally recycled. And the batteries definitely are as they are super valuable.
Sorry I’m not up on American EV adaption rate or infrastructure challenges so can’t really comment on that.
We are about to hit the road on a little camping trip so I’ll check in next week. Enjoyed the civil discussion. I think some of our point of view differences are just living in different countries.
Safe travels way2roll.
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way2roll
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"Auto manufacturers are putting billions into EV development because people want them."
Wrong. Auto manufacturers are putting Billions of dollars into them because the government is giving them the money - taxpayer money. And you have built in demand - because the government is making EV's mandatory. This is not about free market capitalism and being competitive. This is about auto manufacturers making a deal with the government to secure funding and a captive consumer. And to your point, the manufacturers that don't get that deal, will go under. They can't do it on their own merit and resources, it's not cost effective. So the government again gets to dictate the market and who survives in it, not free market competition. When the government decides to manipulate the market with taxpayer money, your freedom to choose as a consumer is gone. And the loss of that freedom gets paired with a lighter wallet.
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TurnThePage
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How much have we propped up the oil industry over the decades? Free market capitalism?
Remember leaded gas? How long were we happily poisoning ourselves with that, all the while complaining about how unleaded would destroy the world. I don't think electric battery production will ever be close to that.
Change happens. Keep up or get out of the way. Get used to it, blah blah blah.
If I don't retire first, my next commuter will likely be electric. They're already better in nearly every way, period. My next tow vehicle on the other hand, IF I get another one, will likely be diesel, mostly because I tow off the beaten path a lot. I imagine electric charging will penetrate pretty deeply into that arena fairly soon too.
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