Coast Resorts Open Roads Forum: Around the Campfire: 2019–2022 CORONAVIRUS PANDEMIC POSTINGS
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 > 2019–2022 CORONAVIRUS PANDEMIC POSTINGS

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BradW

Mayor of Flat Rock

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Joined: 10/29/2001

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Posted: 02/19/21 06:26pm Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

BCSnob wrote:



If one counts the estimated 11.2M fully vaccinated people, then the percentage of the population with immunity increases to 38%.


Why ignore the less than fully vaccinated. Pfizer is claiming +90% effectivity after only one dose. Biden is claiming he his giving 1.7M does each day and there is a 21 day waiting period between the first and second shot. Doing the math, 21 days times 1.7M is another 36M less than fully vaccinated people with + 90% protection. That's another 10% on top of the 38% you claimed. Pretty close to 50% in my book. Then you add in the grossly under counted cases due to them testing for antibodies and ignoring T cells. It is easily 50%. Its very good news for all of us. I got my second shot last week. I'm glad I did and would do it again, but the risk is dropping rapidly anyway.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-healt........-as-first-highly-effective-idUSKBN2AI0EC

* This post was edited 02/19/21 06:41pm by BradW *


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BCSnob

Middletown, MD

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Posted: 02/19/21 06:53pm Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

Except, the Fox News report was for ‘natural immunity’ which does not count vaccinated induced immunity.

The 4x the reported PCR positive cases to estimate the total infections takes into account the ones you want to add for underreported due to antibodies vs T cells.

I personally don’t put too much stock in % effectiveness calculations when there are so few cases used to calculate the values. Go review how these %s were determined; pay close attention to the percentage of infections in the placebo arms of the studies for the 1st dose.

* This post was edited 02/19/21 07:05pm by BCSnob *

pianotuna

Regina, SK, Canada

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Posted: 02/19/21 07:00pm Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

Brad,

I did click on the 2nd link. However my connection is throttled and after 30 minutes I still had nothing except some text and a circle.


Regards, Don
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BCSnob

Middletown, MD

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Posted: 02/19/21 07:18pm Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

Please note that the % effectiveness of vaccines is not for immunity; I was incorrect to include the vaccinated population as having immunity. Vaccine effectiveness is prevention of most symptoms; go review the “end points” listed for the clinical trials. The trials were not designed to assess for symptomatic and asymptotic infections.

FYI, the ~90% effectiveness after the 1dose occurred14 days after that dose.

BradW

Mayor of Flat Rock

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Posted: 02/20/21 02:01am Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

Here is the same data on the cdc web site. It is very good news.

https://covid.cdc.gov/covid-data-tracker/#trends_dailytrendscases

BCSnob

Middletown, MD

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Posted: 02/20/21 05:19am Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

The dropping cases is very good news; it means people have been careful about reducing their exposure risk.

We shouldn’t forget there were people proclaiming in Aug-Sept 2020 the lower rate of new cases was due to us reaching herd immunity. I recall this was being said about London and the UK,

BradW

Mayor of Flat Rock

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Joined: 10/29/2001

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Posted: 02/20/21 01:23pm Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

BCSnob wrote:

The dropping cases is very good news; it means people have been careful about reducing their exposure risk.


MEXICOWANDERER

las peñas, michoacan, mexico

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Posted: 02/20/21 04:41pm Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

What matters is the most vulnerable NOT contract the virus no matter how immune the herd. It on;y takes once.

BCSnob

Middletown, MD

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Posted: 02/22/21 07:43am Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

Since there continues to be confusion on what is meant by "vaccine effectiveness" (immunity or something else) I thought it would be good to review what has been published.

N Engl J Med 2020; 383:2603-2615 wrote:

Efficacy

The first primary end point was the efficacy of BNT162b2 against confirmed Covid-19 with onset at least 7 days after the second dose in participants who had been without serologic or virologic evidence of SARS-CoV-2 infection up to 7 days after the second dose; the second primary end point was efficacy in participants with and participants without evidence of prior infection. Confirmed Covid-19 was defined according to the Food and Drug Administration (FDA) criteria as the presence of at least one of the following symptoms: fever, new or increased cough, new or increased shortness of breath, chills, new or increased muscle pain, new loss of taste or smell, sore throat, diarrhea, or vomiting, combined with a respiratory specimen obtained during the symptomatic period or within 4 days before or after it that was positive for SARS-CoV-2 by nucleic acid amplification–based testing, either at the central laboratory or at a local testing facility (using a protocol-defined acceptable test).

Major secondary end points included the efficacy of BNT162b2 against severe Covid-19. Severe Covid-19 is defined by the FDA as confirmed Covid-19 with one of the following additional features: clinical signs at rest that are indicative of severe systemic illness; respiratory failure; evidence of shock; significant acute renal, hepatic, or neurologic dysfunction; admission to an intensive care unit; or death. Details are provided in the protocol.

link

For the Pfizer vaccine, effectiveness is defined as preventing the disease Covid-19 which is defined as having at least one of the symptoms above plus confirmation by a positive RT-PCR test.

N Engl J Med 2021; 384:403-416 wrote:

Efficacy Assessments

The primary end point was the efficacy of the mRNA-1273 vaccine in preventing a first occurrence of symptomatic Covid-19 with onset at least 14?days after the second injection in the per-protocol population, among participants who were seronegative at baseline. End points were judged by an independent adjudication committee that was unaware of group assignment. Covid-19 cases were defined as occurring in participants who had at least two of the following symptoms: fever (temperature ?38°C), chills, myalgia, headache, sore throat, or new olfactory or taste disorder, or as occurring in those who had at least one respiratory sign or symptom (including cough, shortness of breath, or clinical or radiographic evidence of pneumonia) and at least one nasopharyngeal swab, nasal swab, or saliva sample (or respiratory sample, if the participant was hospitalized) that was positive for SARS-CoV-2 by reverse-transcriptase–polymerase-chain-reaction (RT-PCR) test.

link

For the Moderna vaccine, effectiveness is defined as preventing the symptomatic Covid-19 which is defined as having at least two of the symptoms above plus confirmation by a positive RT-PCR test.

The effectiveness of these two vaccines does not include prevention of asymptomatic infections by SARS-CoV-2; or stated another way, these vaccines were not evaluated on providing immunity. That does not mean they do not provide immunity; it just means that is not how their effectiveness was evaluated.

There is little to no data on the effectiveness at providing immunity. To determine if these vaccines provide immunity (or at what rate) would require a human challenge study (vaccinate and then purposely infect with the virus and measure how many develop positive RT-PCR tests) or vaccinate (with placebo or vaccine) and follow everyone with periodic RT-PCR tests (~ every 2 weeks).

BCSnob

Middletown, MD

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Posted: 02/22/21 08:56am Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

Here are two news articles that add to the confusion.

Quote:

’We could be approaching herd immunity’: Epidemiologist on coronavirus pandemic

As the seven-day average of newly confirmed COVID-19 cases in the U.S. dramatically declines, down about 66% from a month ago, Suzanne Judd, an epidemiologist at the University of Alabama at Birmingham School of Public Health, says it’s “possible” we’re approaching herd immunity.

Judd points to a Columbia University study that estimates the number of active COVID-19 cases in the U.S. could be 10 times the number confirmed through testing. The study, published by NPR ahead of peer review, suggests that as of the end of January, more than a third of the U.S. population had already been infected with coronavirus.

“You add the findings from the Columbia study to the number of vaccinations that have been rolling out, and it’s possible that we could be approaching herd immunity,” Judd told Yahoo Finance Live. “We should know within the next two or three months if this trend holds, but this is definitely the most positive news we have seen in a long time.”


And here is more information on the Columbia Study

Quote:

Active COVID Cases May Be Ten Times Official Count: Study


The number of active COVID-19 cases in the United States is roughly ten times higher than the number of confirmed cases on any given day, according to a computer model by Columbia University Mailman School of Public Health scientists. Since the start of the pandemic, an estimated one-third of the U.S. population has already been infected, with numbers five times that of the official count.

Jeffrey Shaman, PhD, a professor of environmental health sciences known for his COVID-19 projections, led the research, based on case numbers and anonymized cellphone location data to estimate population mixing. The findings appear ahead of peer review in a report by NPR.


The Columbia study uses proximity data from cell phones to estimate how many more people were infected (making assumptions about infections based upon proximity) than the current estimate. The epidemiologist makes the assumption that vaccines are providing immunity.

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