Going to reconfigure somewhat while I am out at the camper this weekend and see how it tows home and if I am still not happy they will replace the bars with a different set since my camper is right at the in between weight which the 750lb bars could be used when the camper is empty but since my planned tongue weight was more then 750lb they sent the 1000 lb bars which might be possibly the reason of the rough ride.
Rescue 16 - United States Navy Retired and Proud
Lovely Wife Carla ">
The Crew Alicia and Johnathan ">
The Camping Dog Kamp Chaos ">
2013 Keystone Cougar 32RBK
2006 Ford F350 Crew Cab Lariat 6.0 PowerStroke
Maybe can help. I looked up your camper.
http://www.keystonerv.com/cougar-xlite/ Nice camper, congrats.
That 34' 7" long camper starts out at 7,401# dry with a 750# dry tongue weight. That comes out to be 750/7401= 0.101 or X100 = 10.1% dry tongue weight. That is a very light tongue weight for a camper of that length. That means when you load it, you would really want to get it more in the 13% to 15% range. Since you have 1,599# of cargo capacity, if you added 1,200# of stuff, (not hard to do in 35 feet) this could put you up at 8,601# loaded GVW. At 13% loaded tongue that is 1,118# and at 15% that is 1,290# loaded tongue weight.
Tell us what "ride is a little rough" feels like?
In this case a trip to the truck scales can really help sort this out. Need 3 set of weight in progression. TT & TV hitched with WD on, TV and TT hitched no WD (drop the chains) and then truck only. All axle by axle weights.
If you are at 1,000# WD bars now, and you should be up in the 1,100 to 1,200# TW range, you really do not want to go lighter bars.
I have some experience with your truck suspension, mine is a 05, yours and 06 but they are close.
Also tell us, what do you have in the truck bed when towing the TT? and where is it in relation to the rear axle, on top, in front or behind?
Any chance of providing fender heights unhitched and then hitched with the WD bars snapped up?
Do you haul fresh water to camp and if so where is the tank in relation to the TT axles, on top, in front or behind?
Hope this helps
John
John & Cindy
2005 Ford F350 Super Duty, 4x4; 6.8L V10 with 4.10
CC, SB, Lariat & FX4 package
21,000 GCWR, 11,000 GVWR
Ford Tow Command
1,700# Reese HP hitch & HP Dual Cam
2 1/2" Towbeast Receiver
2004 Sunline Solaris T310SR
(I wish we were camping!)
JBarca wrote:
Hi Barney,
I have seen the new version up close at dealer and took a bunch of pics. The hitch is made well, craftsmanship wise. And it does have grease fittings on the trunnion pivot pins. There are no trunnion pivot bolts to tighten. The trunnion sockets pivot free other than the high force of the WD pulling on them.
Blue Ox has now created a video with a computer simulation. They show a computer model creating the effect gmw photos is explaining.
This Blue Ox should fire off Blue Ox site and scroll down to the 6 minute info video. They do not come out and say it, but they are down playing the Reese. I can tell they are Reese parts.
The WD part is straight forward like any other conventional WD hitch. However as said, no more head tilt. So chain links is the total adjustment. If you get real heavy bars in relation to the TW, the chains are going to hang down pretty far which then comes to the anti sway part.
The profile of the WD bars leads itself to be able flex more easy as compared to say, an all square Equal_I_zer. The concept "appears" to be counting on an angle being created down the center line of the truck and TT at the tow ball to create higher force on the down stream WD bar in relation to the sway force acting on the TV and TT. That higher force would tend to want to push the connection back towards the direction of sway force.
They intentionally have a large tilt angle backward on the hitch head to help create this higher force in the WD bar.
I can see the force it creates reacting on the hitch head and wanting to help bring the TT back in line. The further off center the TT and TV go, the larger the force. A similar WD force occurs on the Reese DC if the hitch head is titled approx 7 to 10 degrees to the rear. On the Reese the down stream WD bar increases in WD force riding up the cam and increasing the ultra high friction.
A difference in the Blue Ox is that the TV and TT has to become out of line for the force to build as going dead straight ahead both WD bars are loaded equal.
An unknown right now is, for a given TT length and TV wheel base how much force is needed in that down stream WD bar and how much off center angle of the TV & TT to exert enough force at the hitch head to dampen the sway action? Good question.
The ultra high friction hitches like Equal-I-zer or Reese DC use the friction to help prevent the angle between the TT and TV from forming while the Blue ox needs some level of angle for it to work.
I can see the force happening they are talking about, I just can't yet sort out how much force is needed and how far the angle between TV and TT needs to get to be effective in anti sway control of a large TT.
This would be a good one to stimulate Ron Gratz with.
John
gmw photos wrote:
When the trailer is not in line with the tow vehicle, the bars have an unequal force applied to them. That unequal force is applied ( if I am understanding it correctly ) because of the fact the head of the hitch is tilted backwards at it's top.
As proof of this, when I am cranking up the chains on this hitch, if I don't have the truck exactly straight in line with the trailer, one bar will "chain up easily" while the other bar is very difficult to get the latch to turn. In that case, I have to crank up the tongue jack some more to get enough weight "off the bars".
It's that unequal force, created by the geometry of the hitch head, bars, and attaching chains that is apparently the force the keeps the trailer inline when it tries to sway.
At least that's my take on it. All I know is it works. And the weight distributing part works as well, a fact I verified by setting mine up and going to the CAT scale.
BarneyS wrote:
I fail to see how the chains can supply much,if any, sway control at all since the brackets pivot right along with the a frame and bars in a sway event and in a turn. The bars DO move forward and back but are not rigid side to side, which would be necessary for sway control to take place.
Barney
I fail to see how the chains can supply much,if any, sway control at all since the brackets pivot right along with the a frame and bars in a sway event and in a turn. The bars DO move forward and back but are not rigid side to side, which would be necessary for sway control to take place.
Barney
When the trailer is not in line with the tow vehicle, the bars have an unequal force applied to them. That unequal force is applied ( if I am understanding it correctly ) because of the fact the head of the hitch is tilted backwards at it's top.
As proof of this, when I am cranking up the chains on this hitch, if I don't have the truck exactly straight in line with the trailer, one bar will "chain up easily" while the other bar is very difficult to get the latch to turn. In that case, I have to crank up the tongue jack some more to get enough weight "off the bars".
It's that unequal force, created by the geometry of the hitch head, bars, and attaching chains that is apparently the force the keeps the trailer inline when it tries to sway.
At least that's my take on it. All I know is it works. And the weight distributing part works as well, a fact I verified by setting mine up and going to the CAT scale.
Hi Barney,
I have seen the new version up close at dealer and took a bunch of pics. The hitch is made well, craftsmanship wise. And it does have grease fittings on the trunnion pivot pins. There are no trunnion pivot bolts to tighten. The trunnion sockets pivot free other than the high force of the WD pulling on them.
Blue Ox has now created a video with a computer simulation. They show a computer model creating the effect gmw photos is explaining.
This Blue Ox should fire off Blue Ox site and scroll down to the 6 minute info video. They do not come out and say it, but they are down playing the Reese. I can tell they are Reese parts.
The WD part is straight forward like any other conventional WD hitch. However as said, no more head tilt. So chain links is the total adjustment. If you get real heavy bars in relation to the TW, the chains are going to hang down pretty far which then comes to the anti sway part.
The profile of the WD bars leads itself to be able flex more easy as compared to say, an all square Equal_I_zer. The concept "appears" to be counting on an angle being created down the center line of the truck and TT at the tow ball to create higher force on the down stream WD bar in relation to the sway force acting on the TV and TT. That higher force would tend to want to push the connection back towards the direction of sway force.
They intentionally have a large tilt angle backward on the hitch head to help create this higher force in the WD bar.
I can see the force it creates reacting on the hitch head and wanting to help bring the TT back in line. The further off center the TT and TV go, the larger the force. A similar WD force occurs on the Reese DC if the hitch head is titled approx 7 to 10 degrees to the rear. On the Reese the down stream WD bar increases in WD force riding up the cam and increasing the ultra high friction.
A difference in the Blue Ox is that the TV and TT has to become out of line for the force to build as going dead straight ahead both WD bars are loaded equal.
An unknown right now is, for a given TT length and TV wheel base how much force is needed in that down stream WD bar and how much off center angle of the TV & TT to exert enough force at the hitch head to dampen the sway action? Good question.
The ultra high friction hitches like Equal-I-zer or Reese DC use the friction to help prevent the angle between the TT and TV from forming while the Blue ox needs some level of angle for it to work.
I can see the force happening they are talking about, I just can't yet sort out how much force is needed and how far the angle between TV and TT needs to get to be effective in anti sway control of a large TT.
This would be a good one to stimulate Ron Gratz with.
John
So how is the new Blue Ox Sway Pro system different than the standard Reese Trunnion system without the Dual cam sway control, besides the Blue Ox rotary chain latches.
I can see the downward tilt force of the Blue Ox sway, but this should also be happening in standard trunnion systems with downward head tilt without any additional sway control hardware.
I just don't see how the Blue Ox 'new' Sway Pro head is anything different than a standard trunnion head but without any adjustable tilt.
Thanks
2019 Ford F150 XLT Sport, CC, 4WD, 145" WB, 3.5L Ecoboost, 10 speed, 3.55 9.75" Locking Axle, Max Tow, 1831# Payload, 10700# Tow Rating, pulling a 2020 Rockwood Premier 2716g, with a 14' box. Previous 2012 Jayco Jay Flight 26BH.
Mike Up wrote:
So how is the new Blue Ox Sway Pro system different than the standard Reese Trunnion system without the Dual cam sway control, besides the Blue Ox rotary chain latches.
I can see the downward tilt force of the Blue Ox sway, but this should also be happening in standard trunnion systems with downward head tilt without any additional sway control hardware.
I just don't see how the Blue Ox 'new' Sway Pro head is anything different than a standard trunnion head but without any adjustable tilt.
Thanks
So how is the new Blue Ox Sway Pro system different than the standard Reese Trunnion system without the Dual cam sway control, besides the Blue Ox rotary chain latches.
I can see the downward tilt force of the Blue Ox sway, but this should also be happening in standard trunnion systems with downward head tilt without any additional sway control hardware.
I just don't see how the Blue Ox 'new' Sway Pro head is anything different than a standard trunnion head but without any adjustable tilt.
Thanks
I agree. I still fail to see how the system provides sway control other than the friction between the bar sockets and the hitch head (similar to the Equal-izer). I don't see the chains playing any part at all in sway control. The tilt of the hitch head/chain tension during a turn or sway would be the same as a normal WD hitch so I don't see any difference there either.
Barney
2004 Sunnybrook Titan 30FKS TT
Hensley "Arrow" 1400# hitch (Sold)
Not towing now.
Former tow vehicles were 2016 Ram 2500 CTD, 2002 Ford F250, 7.3 PSD, 1997 Ram 2500 5.9 gas engine
BarneyS wrote:
I agree. I still fail to see how the system provides sway control other than the friction between the bar sockets and the hitch head (similar to the Equal-izer). I don't see the chains playing any part at all in sway control. The tilt of the hitch head/chain tension during a turn or sway would be the same as a normal WD hitch so I don't see any difference there either.
Barney
Mike Up wrote:
So how is the new Blue Ox Sway Pro system different than the standard Reese Trunnion system without the Dual cam sway control, besides the Blue Ox rotary chain latches.
I can see the downward tilt force of the Blue Ox sway, but this should also be happening in standard trunnion systems with downward head tilt without any additional sway control hardware.
I just don't see how the Blue Ox 'new' Sway Pro head is anything different than a standard trunnion head but without any adjustable tilt.
Thanks
So how is the new Blue Ox Sway Pro system different than the standard Reese Trunnion system without the Dual cam sway control, besides the Blue Ox rotary chain latches.
I can see the downward tilt force of the Blue Ox sway, but this should also be happening in standard trunnion systems with downward head tilt without any additional sway control hardware.
I just don't see how the Blue Ox 'new' Sway Pro head is anything different than a standard trunnion head but without any adjustable tilt.
Thanks
I agree. I still fail to see how the system provides sway control other than the friction between the bar sockets and the hitch head (similar to the Equal-izer). I don't see the chains playing any part at all in sway control. The tilt of the hitch head/chain tension during a turn or sway would be the same as a normal WD hitch so I don't see any difference there either.
Barney
Hi Guys,
The computer simulation model found on their site Blue OX site at minute 2 of the 6:02' U tube attempts to explain how their anti away control works.
This snap shot from that video is part of the explanation
![[image]](http://s23.photobucket.com/user/JBarca/media/Hitch%20Setup/Hitches%20Explained/Anitawayprinicpal_zps07423bfd.jpg.html)
See the angle of the trunnion socket pivot bolts. They are counting on that angle of the trunnion socket pivot bolt. And since you cannot adjust the head tilt, it will be there.
See the cross section of the WD bar. The new WD bars are thin in the long direction with a fine taper in thickness all the way up to the trunnion socket. The WD bar is full width just about from the chain to the trunnion socket. The WD bar will flex (bow) much more easily across the long thin section than the left to right as viewed from the top.
I "think" (do not know for sure), they are counting on the fact that when the TT and TV are far enough off center, (TV at an angle to the TT) the WD bar force will increase and "help" guide the TT to track back on center. The shape of these WD bars are different than most traditional WD bars and will flex different. The angle of the trunnion pivot bolt and the WD bar force create a force in the direction to "help" guide the TT to track back to center.
I can see the concept helping to aide in this high degree off center effect, and I can see the Blue Ox WD bar profile flexing better than the conventional WD hitch WD bar, however... I see it as a reaction verses a prevention method of anti sway control. An unknown is, how much off center angle between the TV and the TT is needed to be effective?
They state that their chain brackets "eliminate sway" at the minute 3:39' mark in the video. I believe that to be an incorrect statement or a marketing promo mix up. I do agree their longer support chain bracket "limits" chain swing. However if someone is using a high rated WD bar in relation to the loaded TW, the chain will be long and still be able to swing more than it would on the more matched WD bar.
The instructions here: http://swaypro.com/Uploads/Docs/BXW0550,0750,1000,1500.pdf state a level TV is a method of proper WD. This one size fits all statement does not apply well to the large set of combinations of TV's. They are also going by 1 to 2" of hitch connection drop as a method of measurement of WD. I "believe" they are trying to simplify the setup verses what WD is suppose to be doing on the TV. I myself would not use that method as there are other variables in the TV that can make their stated end result not be correct.
In the instructions, under troubleshooting it talks about what to adjust for excessive sway. They tell you to properly balance the TT. I and many others 110% agree with this as it is the underlying foundation of proper trailer setup. If the TT is balanced properly it should not be swaying.
As I mentioned before, the quality of craftsmanship is very good. The WD bars and trunnion sockets have some very nice features. The rotary chain brackets offer a different approach and helps on some TT's with LP tank mounting issues. I do prefer their prior generation adjustable hitch head to allow for finer resolution of the WD. The big question comes back to, how effective is the anti sway control as compared the ultra high friction types of anti sway control?
If an RV'er has a well matched stiff suspension, stiff tire flex TV and a well balanced TT for low anti-sway characteristics, well how much force resistance do you need from a anti-sway WD hitch when towing on the ball some 48 to 65" behind the TV rear axle? Reese, Equalizer,Husky,Blue Ox, EAZ lift etc do not put some kind of rating on anti sway control. With all the TT & TV combinations and variables in the setup, how can they? So, well, you are left to figure it our for yourself.
It would be really good if one of their technical staff could help explain how they came to the conclusions they did and what testing helped them make those statements. Their latest video is the most we have had from them on the web.
Hope this helps
John
What I don't really understand, as you have stated as well as Blue Ox, is how having the flex creates more spring force than a simple Reese Trunnion chain system without any sway control added.
Even though the Reese bars don't flex as much, they are still adding in force that's equal, as long as you use the same rated bars, chain links, and head tilt. I just can't see how the flex matters as long as there is force.
I do understand everything that you're stating, I just can't see how it's 'better' than a standard none sway control Reese Trunnion system.
It also looks like Blue Ox seems to feel that the Rotary latches take the place of the built in friction sway control in the head.
I did talk to many upper level employees at Blue Ox and they told me that they did away with the friction control in the head because it was causing "dog tracking". I also heard complains from Equalizer brand owners of the same problem with their built in head friction.
Blue Ox obviously replaced this head friction sway control with the rotary chain latches PLUS they can now claim 4 points of sway control like the Equalizer brand.
bars
Here is how I see the similarities and how they differ
The traditional systems with 'cams' and/or the spring bar ends 'bent' both increase
the amount of spring bar tension as the trailer moves off center line
The other sway control or resistance is when those bars move up in tension there
is another resistance to moving off line and that is the force trying to ride up
on the cams or bent bar ends
The Ox works similarly, but the difference is in their chain hookup. There is
less number of links 'free' and most on the Ox are 'captured' within their
system
That then resists the bar from 'pushing' the chain bracket rearwards, whereas
in the traditional system with more 'free' links, the chain just sways or allows
the spring bar to move rearward
Since the spring bars are flattened horizontally, it will bend vertically easier
than sideways. Another sway control item, as the traditional spring bars/trunnions
will bend easier than these (an assumption, as do not know their metallurgy,
hardness, etc)
I like the dialed in cast head tilt. Less components to both corrode and adjust.
Also less to loosen, or fall off
Again, the more I noodle this system, the more I like it
-Ben Picture of my rig
1996 GMC SLT Suburban 3/4 ton K3500/7.4L/4:1/+150Kmiles orig owner...
1980 Chevy Silverado C10/long bed/"BUILT" 5.7L/3:73/1 ton helper springs/+329Kmiles, bought it from dad...
1998 Mazda B2500 (1/2 ton) pickup, 2nd owner...
Praise Dyno Brake equiped and all have "nose bleed" braking!
Previous trucks/offroaders: 40's Jeep restored in mid 60's / 69 DuneBuggy (approx +1K lb: VW pan/200hpCorvair: eng, cam, dual carb'w velocity stacks'n 18" runners, 4spd transaxle) made myself from ground up / 1970 Toyota FJ40 / 1973 K5 Blazer (2dr Tahoe, 1 ton axles front/rear, +255K miles when sold it)...
Sold the boat (looking for another): Trophy with twin 150's...
51 cylinders in household, what's yours?...
Mike Up wrote:
Very good explanation John.
What I don't really understand, as you have stated as well as Blue Ox, is how having the flex creates more spring force than a simple Reese Trunnion chain system without any sway control added.
Even though the Reese bars don't flex as much, they are still adding in force that's equal, as long as you use the same rated bars, chain links, and head tilt. I just can't see how the flex matters as long as there is force.
Very good explanation John.
What I don't really understand, as you have stated as well as Blue Ox, is how having the flex creates more spring force than a simple Reese Trunnion chain system without any sway control added.
Even though the Reese bars don't flex as much, they are still adding in force that's equal, as long as you use the same rated bars, chain links, and head tilt. I just can't see how the flex matters as long as there is force.
Hi Mike,
I agree, this is hard to see. I do not know how effective it is. The thing that is different is the angle of the trunnion pin. That large angle "may" help to guide the TT back towards center with the added WD bar force. If the pin was true vertical like many traditional WD hitches it would not have this same effect. I have read this effect before. See here you can create it on a standard round bar WD hitch.
Andy Thompson of Can Am RV in Canada wrote this: See full article: here
Andy wrote:
6) Next check the angle on the ball mount. The ball mount should angle back as much as possible. This angle on the ball mount acts like the forks of a bicycle - it makes the unit want to stay in a straight ahead position (that is why you can ride a bike with no hands).
6) Next check the angle on the ball mount. The ball mount should angle back as much as possible. This angle on the ball mount acts like the forks of a bicycle - it makes the unit want to stay in a straight ahead position (that is why you can ride a bike with no hands).
While Andy does do some "different" things from time to time, I do respect him enough to listen even if I do not always agree. I have to think more on this castering effect to see if I can sort out more on how that angled pivot pin helps guide the TT back in line.
The down side is, the TT has to go this far out to create the effect.
I agree with your other statements, too much hitch head friction can aggravate dog tracking and not allow the camper to come back in align. The lighter the TT and stronger the head friction, the worse this gets.
Hope this helps
John
He stated this new head offers supperior sway control and now I see why. It finally just dawned on me and it's very simple but very effective.
First as mentioned, the spring bars bend much more than any other makers bars and Blue Ox took advantage of this.
They angled their head more than other heads because they can get away with it because the bars will bow, while other bars would be straighter interfereing with ground clearance and the such.
The steep angle, which is greater than the Reese trunnion, Equalizer brand and even Blue Oxs old head, allows the bar to swing up when pushed outward and load more, putting more push on that side, while the other bar swings inward and down, putting less force than normal, allowing the other side to push toward it, in that direction.
This force isn't done by other system because they don't have the steep head downward tilt that the Blue Ox head has, which is allowed by the bars ability to bend up and not have inteference issues.
The older head didn't have this steep downward tilt but relied on friction bolts in the head to control sway.
As the engineer pointed out to me, they wanted to do away with the friction bolts as they caused 'dog tracking' in his terminology.
I guess I didn't clearly understand it the first time I read it because I didn't realize it was the same tilt other makers use, but at a more extreme angle coupled with a spring bar that will bow to allow ground clearances.
The old head would also bend the bars BUT the head tilt angle wasn't as severe so the new system will likely have more chain links between the chain bracket and the bar. However with the new rotary latch, it's not as pronounced as the rotary latch limits the chain's motion, which in itself contributes to additional sway control.
I think I'll be purchasing this system.
![[emoticon]](http://www.coastresorts.com/sharedcontent/cfb/images/smile.gif "smile")
Unfortunately, my dealer wouldn't pony up for an entire new system and only replaced the obvious broken parts. Now that I'm seeing more damage that couldn't be seen until the system was pulled and dismantled a few times, I'm think I'm done with it. I just don't trust the Reese Dual Cam parts as there maybe other unforseen stresses that could cause failure.
Besides if it was all new, I wouldn't trust it not to bind up again. I wish I would had bought a new Equalizer or Blue Ox system with the new trailer. To many issues with the Dual Cam bars contacting the cam arm lobe brackets and mainly due to Reeses direction saying 5 links are needed which doesn't provide enough clearance.
Thanks again.