![[emoticon]](http://www.coastresorts.com/sharedcontent/cfb/images/embarrassed.gif "embarrassed")
Let's take a look at this again. The issue noted is what is going on at the tow ball and the trailer ball coupler. First lets look at a conventional WD hitch. For picture sake I'm using mine. This applies to most any if not all WD hitches that use WD spring bars and a hitch head where the WD bars lock up in the hitch head.
Here is the Reese DC trunnion bar WD hitch
![[image]](http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b378/JBarca/Hitch%20Setup/ReeseHPtruninonbarhead.jpg)
Now putting some force directions on the hitch and what is going on.
![[image]](http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b378/JBarca/Hitch%20Setup/Anderson/Stdhookup1.jpg)
When you tighten the WD chains at the snap ups;
- The WD bars lock up in the hitch head and create a large torque force in the hitch head.
- The hitch shank transmits this torque force into the TV receiver, the receiver then applies WD on the truck.
- The WD bars and the hitch head are doing the work of the WD. Forces at the tow ball are the tongue weight pressing down along with the WD bar forces in the frame pushing down even harder on the top of the tow ball.
Now lets look closer at the tow ball area.
![[image]](http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b378/JBarca/Hitch%20Setup/Anderson/Stdhookup2.jpg)
- When the TV pulls forward the tow ball if not already is fully seated in the front of the trailer ball coupler.
- The TT has rolling resistance and wind drag against it and the TV pulls the TT by the tow ball seated in the front of the ball coupler. In this condition there is clearance between the back side of the tow ball and the trailer ball coupler latch. The latch now is not under pressure as you tow forward down the level road, up hill or down hill unless the TT is rolling faster then the TV.
- When the TT brakes are applied and they lead the truck brakes the TV and TT connection stays tight and the ball stays seated in the front of the ball coupler.
If you look at the ball coupler it is made very heavy in the front portion to take all this towing loads the coupler is rated for. The safety latch on the coupler prevents the ball coupler from hopping off the tow ball. The coupler latch does get force against it when you back up or other more non normal towing events.
Now lets look at the Anderson system. This area is different and the tow ball area has very different conditions using this system.
I'm going to start with the hitch up process so folks can see what is occurring in stages.
Hook up TT to TV. The WD chains are slack at this point. For purposes of this part of the discussion the tongue jack may still be down or not. The tow ball is taking the dead weight of the TT tongue weight pushing down on it.
![[image]](http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b378/JBarca/Hitch%20Setup/Anderson/Hookup1.jpg)
Now we start to tension the WD chains.
![[image]](http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b378/JBarca/Hitch%20Setup/Anderson/Hookup2.jpg)
- As you crank up the tension on the nuts behind the urethane springs tension builds in the WD chains.
- The bottom of the tow ball shank starts to have a large force applied pulling the tow ball towards the TT. It also starts to create a torque into the hitch shank and starts the WD process.
- The TT is on wheels and so is the TV. The TV can rock back what ever small clearance exits in the transmission locking pawl. The TT can roll forward only limited by wheel chock or the tongue jack being down. Eventually the wheel chocks are removed and the tongue jack is lifted.
- As the WD chains are further tightened to create WD on the TV the TV and TT are pulled towards each other by the WD chains.
- The tow ball is now resting under force against the safety latch in the ball coupler. There is clearance now on the front of the tow ball between the ball and coupler.
![[image]](http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b378/JBarca/Hitch%20Setup/Anderson/Hookup3.jpg)
- The WD chains are now fully tensioned, the tongue jack raised and the TT wheel chocks removed.
- This concept of WD uses high forces in the WD chains to create the WD. Since the TT is on tires of large diameter the forces in the chains are high enough they can actually pull the TT forward until the TT stops by the coupler latch being held back by the tow ball.
![[image]](http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b378/JBarca/Hitch%20Setup/Anderson/Hookup5.jpg)
- As you tow forward you have 2 sets of forces going on in the WD chains. We already talked about the WD pulling on the chains from the urethane springs. And we talked about that the tow ball was seated up against the coupler latch.
- At the start of towing forward the truck starts pulling the TT. If the rolling resistance of the TT is less then the WD holding force in the WD chains, the chains are pulling the camper by the TV.
- We are now into the different forces going on up against the front of the TT. We have wind drag, going up hill, going down hill, towing level, and TV large acceleration to name a few.
- The larger force will win as to if the tow ball actually is towing the TT or the WD chains are towing the TT. If the rolling resistance is low enough on the TT, the WD chains force is high enough that the WD chains are towing the camper. If the rolling force against the TT are larger then the WD force in the chains, then the tow ball will shift from being up against the coupler latch to the front of the ball coupler.
The dynamics going on at the ball coupler and the coupler latch are very different with this hitch then the conventional WD hitch with spring bars.
When you are going slow the fact that the WD chains are pulling the camper is something I myself have just not yet accepted as a positive thing to do. And then there is the hard bounce of the back of the truck forces into the WD chains. The urethane spring brackets are really doing a lot of work. Anderson advertized this hitch as having shock absorbing characteristics. They are claiming this:
"Patented True Motion-Dampening™ system -drastically reduces bounce"
Now I understand "I think" how they are doing this. They are towing the camper by springs. What would be ideal is to have someone from the ball coupler manufactures let us know what kind of loads the ball latch can handle.
If I missed something here or stated it not correct, please let us know.
I need help being convinced the issue at the ball coupler and at the urethane springs brackes are not going to be a long term problem.
Am I missing something that they are not a problem?
John
John & Cindy
2005 Ford F350 Super Duty, 4x4; 6.8L V10 with 4.10
CC, SB, Lariat & FX4 package
21,000 GCWR, 11,000 GVWR
Ford Tow Command
1,700# Reese HP hitch & HP Dual Cam
2 1/2" Towbeast Receiver
2004 Sunline Solaris T310SR
(I wish we were camping!)
BenK wrote:
Then the friction material and the taper of the ball shank will also get worked Since not held in with a nut and the normal approx 500 ft/lbs, how much is there via that clevis pin? I'd assume next to nothing, as that first video shows it just drop off when the tension and pin is removed.
The only sway control is the friction material. On a traditional WD with cams will have both the increase in WD forces and resistance to that side to side by both the pull and compression of the cam on the bar end.
Then the friction material and the taper of the ball shank will also get worked Since not held in with a nut and the normal approx 500 ft/lbs, how much is there via that clevis pin? I'd assume next to nothing, as that first video shows it just drop off when the tension and pin is removed.
The only sway control is the friction material. On a traditional WD with cams will have both the increase in WD forces and resistance to that side to side by both the pull and compression of the cam on the bar end.
Hi Ben,
I totally agree the ball coupler area is one of concern and the urethane spring brackets. See page 4 for my response. I saw the "light" that the latch has issues with this setup. You where correct on this.
Now to the clevis pin. That pin is intended to be a "key" so to speak to connect the ball shank to the chain plate and drive the chain plate as the WD chains push pull it with the spring action. The pin is also a safety so the tow ball does not fly up and out.
They actually have a bunch of force pressing the tow ball shank into the friction material. I see 2 sets of forces pushing the tow ball shank into the friction material.
1. The dead weight of the TT tongue pushing down. If it is 1,000# TW then they have at least 1,000# pushing on the shank on a shllow taper creating grip. This force will vary pending the TW.
2. The WD forces acting on the tow ball shank. When they pull on the bottom of the tow ball they are creating a very large torque into the tow ball shank, thru the friction materiel and then into the tapered shank socket. This is a large force pushing the shank into the friction material. The more WD the higher the force.
I can see how that can create a bunch of grip to help ward off sway forces acting on the TT.
The tow ball rotates very little to almost nothing. That is why they do not need grease on it plus it may have the Anderson low friction coating on the top of the ball. The only rotation is the small movement of rotation from the tension in the WD chains changing. The 2 chains find equilibrium once the ball slips once.
I think the setup can assist in helping control sway if the WD part and ball coupler area does not create large issues which is yet to be sorted out.
As far as the tow ball rocking back and forth, well it depends on the WD chains forces who wins. See page 4. There is a lot of dynamics going on as to if the chains are towing the camper or the tow ball is.
John
![[emoticon]](http://www.coastresorts.com/sharedcontent/cfb/images/smile.gif "smile")
I have an additional problem with this hitch. Seems to me, all the towing forces are concentrated on the threads of the nut and threads of the rod behind the urethane spring. I don't think I would want my trailer depending on a few threads of a nut providing the holding or lifting power of my WD. Barney
2004 Sunnybrook Titan 30FKS TT
Hensley "Arrow" 1400# hitch (Sold)
Not towing now.
Former tow vehicles were 2016 Ram 2500 CTD, 2002 Ford F250, 7.3 PSD, 1997 Ram 2500 5.9 gas engine
JBarca wrote:
Hi Ben,
I totally agree the ball coupler area is one of concern and the urethane spring brackets. See page 4 for my response. I saw the "light" that the latch has issues with this setup. You where correct on this.
Not arguing, so no right or wrong...just opinions on
something that has little to no specifications to base opinions on
Now to the clevis pin. That pin is intended to be a "key" so to speak to connect the ball shank to the chain plate and drive the chain plate as the WD chains push pull it with the spring action. The pin is also a safety so the tow ball does not fly up and out.
They actually have a bunch of force pressing the tow ball shank into the friction material. I see 2 sets of forces pushing the tow ball shank into the friction material.
1. The dead weight of the TT tongue pushing down. If it is 1,000# TW then they have at least 1,000# pushing on the shank on a shllow taper creating grip. This force will vary pending the TW.
Yes, but that is only in the static condition. In a dynamic
condition during the ride, there are who'd-does with will unweight
and even go negative that the bottom plate/clevis pin must contain
The more movement, the more wear and tear (wollow out that tappered
hole) over time
2. The WD forces acting on the tow ball shank. When they pull on the bottom of the tow ball they are creating a very large torque into the tow ball shank, thru the friction materiel and then into the tapered shank socket. This is a large force pushing the shank into the friction material. The more WD the higher the force.
Don't see this as torque on the axis of the ball shank, but beam action no the shank, which becomes a rod with bending forces
Don't see how there is any forces from the bottom plate & clevis pin
holding the ball shank on. Just the dead weight of the tongue
I can see how that can create a bunch of grip to help ward off sway forces acting on the TT.
The tow ball rotates very little to almost nothing. That is why they do not need grease on it plus it may have the Anderson low friction coating on the top of the ball. The only rotation is the small movement of rotation from the tension in the WD chains changing. The 2 chains find equilibrium once the ball slips once.
I think the setup can assist in helping control sway if the WD part and ball coupler area does not create large issues which is yet to be sorted out.
That is by design that the ball rotates along with the trailers
tongue. As the way the bottom chain plate if fastened and loaded
That is also how they apply friction to that motion and is their
anti-sway mechanism
It is the friction from the differential between the ball shank's
rotation vs the friction material in the tapered hole
As far as the tow ball rocking back and forth, well it depends on the WD chains forces who wins. See page 4. There is a lot of dynamics going on as to if the chains are towing the camper or the tow ball is.
I see that bushing force winning some, losing some to the pull
and braking forces.
That will wobble the shank in the tapered hole to wallow it out
A lot depends on the friction material. Since they say: "proprietary"
stuff, wonder if marketing or real. Marketing might be that it is in
a custom shape that no other has, or really is material science stuff
There are stress raisers on the tapered hole (metal) and assume complimentary
on the friction material. That is not helpful if there is going to
be a lot of none rotational movement between that and the ball shank
From pounding it out of shape (compression) to cracking to both
Then the latch/pawl assembly...any of this type of movement is not
good for it and as Bryan noted, side closure couplers are the norm
for that kind of service or pintle's
BenK wrote:
Then the friction material and the taper of the ball shank will also get worked Since not held in with a nut and the normal approx 500 ft/lbs, how much is there via that clevis pin? I'd assume next to nothing, as that first video shows it just drop off when the tension and pin is removed.
The only sway control is the friction material. On a traditional WD with cams will have both the increase in WD forces and resistance to that side to side by both the pull and compression of the cam on the bar end.
Then the friction material and the taper of the ball shank will also get worked Since not held in with a nut and the normal approx 500 ft/lbs, how much is there via that clevis pin? I'd assume next to nothing, as that first video shows it just drop off when the tension and pin is removed.
The only sway control is the friction material. On a traditional WD with cams will have both the increase in WD forces and resistance to that side to side by both the pull and compression of the cam on the bar end.
Hi Ben,
I totally agree the ball coupler area is one of concern and the urethane spring brackets. See page 4 for my response. I saw the "light" that the latch has issues with this setup. You where correct on this.
Not arguing, so no right or wrong...just opinions on
something that has little to no specifications to base opinions on
Now to the clevis pin. That pin is intended to be a "key" so to speak to connect the ball shank to the chain plate and drive the chain plate as the WD chains push pull it with the spring action. The pin is also a safety so the tow ball does not fly up and out.
They actually have a bunch of force pressing the tow ball shank into the friction material. I see 2 sets of forces pushing the tow ball shank into the friction material.
1. The dead weight of the TT tongue pushing down. If it is 1,000# TW then they have at least 1,000# pushing on the shank on a shllow taper creating grip. This force will vary pending the TW.
Yes, but that is only in the static condition. In a dynamic
condition during the ride, there are who'd-does with will unweight
and even go negative that the bottom plate/clevis pin must contain
The more movement, the more wear and tear (wollow out that tappered
hole) over time
2. The WD forces acting on the tow ball shank. When they pull on the bottom of the tow ball they are creating a very large torque into the tow ball shank, thru the friction materiel and then into the tapered shank socket. This is a large force pushing the shank into the friction material. The more WD the higher the force.
Don't see this as torque on the axis of the ball shank, but beam action no the shank, which becomes a rod with bending forces
Don't see how there is any forces from the bottom plate & clevis pin
holding the ball shank on. Just the dead weight of the tongue
I can see how that can create a bunch of grip to help ward off sway forces acting on the TT.
The tow ball rotates very little to almost nothing. That is why they do not need grease on it plus it may have the Anderson low friction coating on the top of the ball. The only rotation is the small movement of rotation from the tension in the WD chains changing. The 2 chains find equilibrium once the ball slips once.
I think the setup can assist in helping control sway if the WD part and ball coupler area does not create large issues which is yet to be sorted out.
That is by design that the ball rotates along with the trailers
tongue. As the way the bottom chain plate if fastened and loaded
That is also how they apply friction to that motion and is their
anti-sway mechanism
It is the friction from the differential between the ball shank's
rotation vs the friction material in the tapered hole
As far as the tow ball rocking back and forth, well it depends on the WD chains forces who wins. See page 4. There is a lot of dynamics going on as to if the chains are towing the camper or the tow ball is.
I see that bushing force winning some, losing some to the pull
and braking forces.
That will wobble the shank in the tapered hole to wallow it out
A lot depends on the friction material. Since they say: "proprietary"
stuff, wonder if marketing or real. Marketing might be that it is in
a custom shape that no other has, or really is material science stuff
There are stress raisers on the tapered hole (metal) and assume complimentary
on the friction material. That is not helpful if there is going to
be a lot of none rotational movement between that and the ball shank
From pounding it out of shape (compression) to cracking to both
Then the latch/pawl assembly...any of this type of movement is not
good for it and as Bryan noted, side closure couplers are the norm
for that kind of service or pintle's
All this is to appease their goal of easier uncoupling a horse trailer
WD Hitch system
I'd go about it another way at the way the bar end links/chains are
tensioned/un-tensioned
Once un-tensioned, just pull out the receiver pin and drive off leaving
the hitch system on the ball & tongue/coupler. Hooking back up the
reverse, but maybe a tapered hitch shank end to poke into the receiver
pin box easier.
A screw system and a supplied cordless or corded high torque drill
motor to tension and un-tension the bar end links.
Still have to use the tongue jack just like their system.
PS...a very fun thread for me...love this type of discussion and
would be fun to see what other types of cool tools John has...
on another thread expected John to pull out a granite table...
BarneyS wrote:
Interesting discussion guys! I have an additional problem with this hitch. Seems to me, all the towing forces are concentrated on the threads of the nut and threads of the rod behind the urethane spring. I don't think I would want my trailer depending on a few threads of a nut providing the holding or lifting power of my WD.
Barney
I agree with that sentiment, as well as with Ben's comments in the post above.Interesting discussion guys!
I have an additional problem with this hitch. Seems to me, all the towing forces are concentrated on the threads of the nut and threads of the rod behind the urethane spring. I don't think I would want my trailer depending on a few threads of a nut providing the holding or lifting power of my WD. Barney
Really, I don't see any benefit to using this system, versus using any other more conventional weight distributing hitch system already out there. Certainly no benefit befitting of the all the other possible negatives that have been brought up so far.
01 International 4800 4x4 CrewCab DT466E Allison MD3060
69Bronco 86Samurai 85ATC250R 89CR500
98Ranger 96Tacoma
20' BigTex flatbed
8' truck camper, 14' Aristocrat TT
73 Kona 17' ski boat & Mercury 1150TB
92F350 CrewCab 4x4 351/C6 285 BFG AT 4.56 & LockRite rear
BenK wrote:
PS...a very fun thread for me...love this type of discussion and
would be fun to see what other types of cool tools John has...
on another thread expected John to pull out a granite table...
PS...a very fun thread for me...love this type of discussion and
would be fun to see what other types of cool tools John has...
on another thread expected John to pull out a granite table...
If I rember correctly, he did exactly that at one of our camp outs a couple of years ago. Ask John or Les about the "DiVinci" experiment!
![[emoticon]](http://www.coastresorts.com/sharedcontent/cfb/images/biggrin.gif "biggrin")
Barney
BarneyS wrote:
If I remember correctly, he did exactly that at one of our camp outs a couple of years ago. Ask John or Les about the "DiVinci" experiment!
Barney
BenK wrote:
PS...a very fun thread for me...love this type of discussion and
would be fun to see what other types of cool tools John has...
on another thread expected John to pull out a granite table...
PS...a very fun thread for me...love this type of discussion and
would be fun to see what other types of cool tools John has...
on another thread expected John to pull out a granite table...
If I remember correctly, he did exactly that at one of our camp outs a couple of years ago. Ask John or Les about the "DiVinci" experiment!
Barney
LOL....well if I had one of these hitches here it would be fun to go experiment with and report back. I found one on sale for $449, we all chip in I'll get one and report back. Just need to wait for some heat. It was 10 degrees out today...
This is claimed to have patent right on the Motion Dampening feature. I have looked and found a bunch of hitch stuff and even some by Andersen Mfg, just not this one.
If we can find the patent it may shed some light on the thought process behind the design.
Anyone with any hints on finding it?
think that is very cold ! I did snow ski/hike/camp and know what it
is like to be in -20*F with +35MPH winds
More later or tomorrow, but here is the USA patent office site:
USA Patent office
Not a good place to look up things and this site is the HOW2 site
Using the United States Patent Office Website as a Research Resource
or this one
download full issued patents and patent applications for FREE
I've had better luck with either google.com or yahoo.com
Not always in the name you think it is.
I invented many and have patents. Most are in the companies worked
for and/or sold the rights to others. So they are named for the
company and/or the guys who did the work (rules of the patent office
is to have it in the inventors name, but I sold that right off)
Look for Diamond Foam and you'll see my name on some of them. There
are several dozen more being noodled, but lack the $$$ to file and PTC
even more expensive
![[emoticon]](http://www.coastresorts.com/sharedcontent/cfb/images/frown.gif "frown")
JBarca wrote:
Is anyone an expert in patent searching?
This is claimed to have patent right on the Motion Dampening feature. I have looked and found a bunch of hitch stuff and even some by Andersen Mfg, just not this one.
If we can find the patent it may shed some light on the thought process behind the design.
Anyone with any hints on finding it?
Is anyone an expert in patent searching?
This is claimed to have patent right on the Motion Dampening feature. I have looked and found a bunch of hitch stuff and even some by Andersen Mfg, just not this one.
If we can find the patent it may shed some light on the thought process behind the design.
Anyone with any hints on finding it?
Did a quick PTO search on "Anderson Hitch" as a patent Assignee, nothing showed up as an issued patent. The actual inventor(s) must be listed on the application, but unless you know the inventor your pretty much out of luck. The other patent list is applications filed more than 1 year ago and not issued or denied. Problem with searching that data base is the "assignee" isn't searchable for obvious reasons. (Makes it harder for competition to know what others are doing). What we used to do is search on the most known engineers at other companies along with the patent agents name we knew from previous patents. Not knowing any of that, the open patents list didn't give me any hits either.
it wouldn't suprise me if they have applied for a patent, but it hasn't issued yet given the time it usually takes to get a patent issued. if one was issued, they MUST list the patent number on the item in order to protect. The quickest patent I ever got was issued about 3 years after application, the longest took almost 7 years. My last patent was submitted in May 2006 and was finally issued in November 2011.
2011 Keystone Outback 295RE
2004 14' bikehauler with full living quarters
2015.5 Denali 4x4 CC/SB Duramax/Allison
2004.5 Silverado 4x4 CC/SB Duramax/Allison passed on to our Son!
