Having said the above, I'm sure you can fabricate a tub of aluminum, though I don't think it would have the "feel" of the plywood. And I think it might be significantly more noisy. I would try to track down a Livin Lite and see how I felt about that sort of construction.
Do you mind giving a clear description of the issues that you face along with detailed photos. I think we could help if we knew more.
* This post was edited 10/19/13 02:05pm by 67avion *
67 is correct. I really loved the idea of all aluminum,
and would like to see one done, there are a
few considerations. Welds break, thats why
riveting is so great. Wood is great to walk on. Pingy, pang, dingy, dang
not so much! Insulation is a concern. I looked
into high tech marine products, expensive and dont
hold screws well. The Cayo boys still recommend
plywood and thats how they rebuild them. Marine grade plywood covered
in resin, Tiki style, is hard to beat! I would add
stay away from treated wood, off gassing in an
enclosed space is fool hardy.
I really like the Avion bones! She's a sleek and well-designed vehicle, well-suited to her purpose. However, it's pretty clear that there are serious shortcomings in her structure and water tightness, particularly given her age. I bought this rig (truck and camper) because the exterior is excellent, all systems seem to be functional, and the cabinetry is sound. When I got home and began to really probe into the underlying structure, I found that the front bunk was completely rotten, actually wet... I've taken it out. I found that the cabinets containing the battery and water tank had been so water damaged (tho dry now) that the plywood in the corners had become feathery cellulose. I've taken them out. The PO had replaced the left side wing but water damage remains in the surrounding plywood. The plywood of the bulkhead between the front of the cabin and the cabover bed is water damaged. The wing under the right side galley cabinets is very water damaged. I'll attach some pictures to illustrate these things. I know you've seen these sorts of images before.
My camper is certainly not unique in having these issues. Since I have to tear things out in any case, I've begun to consider how to solve the overarching problem: provide stiffness, water tightness and eliminate any further concerns about rotten wood. I've read the entire thread here, gone thru C11's excellent website, studied the pics, and concluded that getting rid of all the structural wood is the smart, long-term solution.
But, 67Avion, I hear your warning about getting bogged down. It's all so easy to take out and so much harder to put back in!! And to stay focused on the task.
My goal is to make this Avion the way LivinLite might have made it structurally. I have a 6' LivinLite tent trailer. The principal reason I bought it was because of the all aluminum construction. Too much bad wood inside sailboats has made a believer out of me.
As for changing the way it feels, I've only driven mine from MN to CA and slept in it one night so I don't have a sense of how it feels other than on the back of my '82 Ford Camper Special heading across the prairie at 65MPH!
I think I'll get used to whatever the feeling is if I can realize the aluminum tub design. And I know I'll have a feeling of complacency sitting inside on a rainy afternoon in some remote campsite, knowing that water will have no effect on any interior part of the Avion...
The caveat is, of course, that I have yet to discuss this with an aluminum fabricator. It could turn out to be infeasible either practically or financially. It could be that the nature of the ribs or the sill precludes welding them to the tub. Lots of unanswered questions.
You may be certain that as I proceed down this path, I'll provide pictures and details. And ask lots of questions!
Onward!
(Current pics coming later)
Its really an amazing thing to see the effect these old Avions have on folks. I have had a similar experience, though with wooden boats. I recall standing on a wharf overlooking the Pacific as storm clouds raised in the skies. Scudding in before the winds came the sail fleet. But, amazingly - at the same time - the Dragon Class wooden boats put OUT to sea. They sought the toughest environment they could find.
Sort of like the Avion folks.
I look forward to seeing the photos and watching your progress.
D1trout wrote:
Garry, I am seriously pursuing the idea of an all-aluminum tub. It raises a number if interesting issues. Foremost at the moment is how to lift the upper part of the camper off the existing tub and suspend it so the original tub can be duplicated in aluminum before being set back down and (presumably) welded together. What do you think of the idea of putting a broad nylon sling strap under the sleeper, back against the main body, and putting a 2x12, suitably padded, through the back set of windows and hoisting the body up enough to free the original tub? Without any interior cabinetry or appliances, it seems the upper body would be less than 1000#...?
And does welding the new tub to the sides, that is, the ribs, seem a good solution?
Grateful for your -and any other's - suggestions. I've pretty much convinced myself it's the way to go, but I really need to discuss it with a competent aluminum fabricator.
garryk6 wrote:
Hi! And Welcome to the Forum/Thread. I looked alot of places when I bought my 1966 C-10, but rapidly found this the best place for Truck Camper info. There are a few other places that are more active, but primarily for trailers. When this thread started a while ago, it was deemed that an Avion Camper thread would be a great way to preserve ideas and information in a one-stop-shopping arena. I don't think any of us expected it to grow this large!
As to you question of the All Aluminum "Tub", I personally thing that this is the only way to go. But when I bought my gutted out C-10, the floor and wings and bunk were already completely re-done in wood. And for Cabinetry, all I had were the two overhead side cabinets and doors. So from pictures here and other sites, I was able to rebuild mine close to a stock configuration, but altered to fit my needs.
If you have the time, money and patience, I would say to go for it!!! I know that when my wood goes away the next time that that is what I'll do. Then I can make a basement model with holding tanks under the floor up front and add some storage to the rear!
Just some ideas!
Garry in Alaska
D1trout wrote:
It seems to me that perhaps removing the entire floor, wings, the vertical sides of the wings, and the bulkhead at the front of the camper and replacing all those parts with an aluminum floor, wings, sides and bulkhead might be a particularly effective way to both eliminate the concern about rotted wood, to stabilize the entire structure, and, when all seams are recaulked, to eliminate or minimize leaks.
To not have any wood in the rig except cabinets would be a boon; water might get in but wouldn't cause any damage. The rig would be rigid on the new metal foundation and thus more easily and effectively sealed. I'm imagining aluminum tube/pipe could be used for the outer frame to accommodate the curved lower edge of the body. The original horizontal panels could be reinstalled over the new frame to restore the classic look.
I'm certain I'm not the first Avion owner to come to this. I would welcome observations/ideas/suggestions on this approach.
It seems to me that perhaps removing the entire floor, wings, the vertical sides of the wings, and the bulkhead at the front of the camper and replacing all those parts with an aluminum floor, wings, sides and bulkhead might be a particularly effective way to both eliminate the concern about rotted wood, to stabilize the entire structure, and, when all seams are recaulked, to eliminate or minimize leaks.
To not have any wood in the rig except cabinets would be a boon; water might get in but wouldn't cause any damage. The rig would be rigid on the new metal foundation and thus more easily and effectively sealed. I'm imagining aluminum tube/pipe could be used for the outer frame to accommodate the curved lower edge of the body. The original horizontal panels could be reinstalled over the new frame to restore the classic look.
I'm certain I'm not the first Avion owner to come to this. I would welcome observations/ideas/suggestions on this approach.
Hi! And Welcome to the Forum/Thread. I looked alot of places when I bought my 1966 C-10, but rapidly found this the best place for Truck Camper info. There are a few other places that are more active, but primarily for trailers. When this thread started a while ago, it was deemed that an Avion Camper thread would be a great way to preserve ideas and information in a one-stop-shopping arena. I don't think any of us expected it to grow this large!
As to you question of the All Aluminum "Tub", I personally thing that this is the only way to go. But when I bought my gutted out C-10, the floor and wings and bunk were already completely re-done in wood. And for Cabinetry, all I had were the two overhead side cabinets and doors. So from pictures here and other sites, I was able to rebuild mine close to a stock configuration, but altered to fit my needs.
If you have the time, money and patience, I would say to go for it!!! I know that when my wood goes away the next time that that is what I'll do. Then I can make a basement model with holding tanks under the floor up front and add some storage to the rear!
Just some ideas!
Garry in Alaska
Garry, I am seriously pursuing the idea of an all-aluminum tub. It raises a number if interesting issues. Foremost at the moment is how to lift the upper part of the camper off the existing tub and suspend it so the original tub can be duplicated in aluminum before being set back down and (presumably) welded together. What do you think of the idea of putting a broad nylon sling strap under the sleeper, back against the main body, and putting a 2x12, suitably padded, through the back set of windows and hoisting the body up enough to free the original tub? Without any interior cabinetry or appliances, it seems the upper body would be less than 1000#...?
And does welding the new tub to the sides, that is, the ribs, seem a good solution?
Grateful for your -and any other's - suggestions. I've pretty much convinced myself it's the way to go, but I really need to discuss it with a competent aluminum fabricator.
I too have contemplated the best way to do this. If you have it indoors, I would consider removing the vents and other items on the ceiling then placing a sheet of plywood with a 2x12 bolted to the plywood down the center with lifting eyes. Then use chain falls to take a strain but not lift.. Then start peeling away all the wood. Obviously before dismantling take lots of measurements and pictures for the reassembly. Try to remove the wood base as much as a unit as possible including the overhead bunk floor. This will require opening up the front wall as it is just a simple sheet of plywood with aluminum skin and a window. As others have said, this is a major undertaking, but would mean that you would be done once and for all. Personally I would weld a tub together and a new front wall and bunk floor all at once, then lower the shell on top and rivet the upper shell to the tub, ensuring the tub tucked up under the shell to minimize the chance of water intrusion.
Personally I would like to build the tub and bunk 4 to 6 inches up around the sides. By either having someone rolling the sides, where they meet the horizontals, or using 4" aluminum pipe quartered to use as the 90 degree radius, it would take care of the difficulty with the existing transition from the wood to the aluminum, then a flat ledge could be formed that would support the ribs. Below the ledge down to the horizontals could then have box tubing ribs to correspond with the shell ribs. This would allow 2" foam insulation in the cabover, and still allow either a thicker mattress, or a standard mattress with more headroom. For the rest of the camper a false floor could them be built to form a basement for holding tanks, plumbing etc. this would also allow for more insulation, and if you are against an aluminum floor, you could do a plywood interior floor with your choice of flooring. By taking lots of measurements from a basement model Lance or Bigfoot or similar, you could keep the cab and bed clearance standard so the truck will fit any PU or just your pickup. I'd you raised the tub by the height of your wheel wells, it allows a wider flat floor space with lots of storage beneath. I don't think you would have much problem with COG, even raising the overall height 8 inches.
But if you don't have the equipment to do this sort of thing, it could get real difficult, or real expensive in a hurry. My goal down the road is to keep using my C10 as is with minor tweaks, and then find a another C10 to slowly build to the C10 Deluxe all aluminum version. Then I would outfit it similar to my current C10 and ensure it is ready for boon docking.
Good luck! It can turn in to an obsession, but it is very fun!
Garry in AK
Garry K
Wife + 4 kids
Retired Military Family.... Alway's on the move....
2002 F350 CCSB 5.4 6spd 4x4 in AK
1966 Avion C-10 Truck Camper
![[image]](http://s933.photobucket.com/user/kennybauman/media/Mobile%20Uploads/image_zps752c6f88.jpg.html)
![[image]](http://s933.photobucket.com/user/kennybauman/media/Mobile%20Uploads/image_zpsf064176a.jpg.html)
![[image]](http://s933.photobucket.com/user/kennybauman/media/Mobile%20Uploads/image_zps94cd4a9e.jpg.html)
By the time I'm done won't be much avion left. I'm going with a basement and making what I'll call a C8.
Yikes!! I bought this rig as a winter project, not as a new career!! More power to you, brother. You're a brave and determined fellow.
WOW!!!
Curious minds want to know....
What do you estimate the weight of the shell as it is right now in the picture?
What do you estimate the old base weighs as shown in the picture?
What is your plan for the base/basement?
Looking Great!
Garry