RvFNG76 wrote:
I work for Forest River rv the plant in Centreville aka Viking we have alot of newer power converters that are missing the tab that goes over the main breaker not a big issue but cannot be used in production so essentially "damaged". The are for pull behinds can i use one of them in my motorhome or would this cause issues????
Plus side of this employment is i upgraded to PEX plumbing and a new water pump along ith other odd ball things such as the new LED lights from Facon
I work for Forest River rv the plant in Centreville aka Viking we have alot of newer power converters that are missing the tab that goes over the main breaker not a big issue but cannot be used in production so essentially "damaged". The are for pull behinds can i use one of them in my motorhome or would this cause issues????
Plus side of this employment is i upgraded to PEX plumbing and a new water pump along ith other odd ball things such as the new LED lights from Facon
I'm not exactly sure what you're asking here but I'll make some assumptions and take a shot at answering.
There are laws and regulations that firmly mandate 'generator switches' for 120/240VAC electrical generators. These are primarily aimed at backup generators for houses, businesses, hospitals, and so forth. These laws and regulations aren't well known. Even when aware of the laws and regulations, some people don't realize these apply to their recreational vehicles.
A running generator connected to the electrical grid is an extreme (!!!!) safety issue. The generator can -- and will -- send current back into the grid, causing risk of electrocution to people working on the grid.
The 'generator switch' term encompasses both actual switches AND lock-out tabs on circuit breakers.
If this is the case with the 'pulled/unused' power converters, they are being rejected due to potential criminal and civil liabilities, for customers as well as the company.
This describes the probable situation and environment. Without more -- and detailed -- information, I can't really answer your question. (Even then, I'd be very hesitant to provide a definitive answer due to potential legal issues.)
On another note, researching PEX when exposed to significantly subzero temperatures is on my to-do list. I know it's better than copper for withstanding the expansion of frozen water. (Copper and iron pipes usually burst when furnaces fail ... PEX withstands that situation better.) However, how does PEX perform when exposed to temperatures as low as -60 degrees F?
I mention this because, depending on how and when you use your RV, you may encounter subfreezing and subzero temperatures. (You're in Michigan so it's possible.)
One of my goals in MLP is three-season and possibly year-around use in interior Alaska.
* This post was edited 11/15/17 04:45pm by Griff in Fairbanks *
1970 Explorer Class A on a 1969 Dodge M300 chassis with 318 cu. in. (split year)
1972 Executive Class A on a Dodge M375 chassis with 413 cu. in.
1973 Explorer Class A on a Dodge RM350 (R4) chassis with 318 engine & tranny from 1970 Explorer Class A
When I got my RV I didn't know much about converter/chargers. I had spent some time studying multi-stage charging and chargers. I had tons of trouble with the 1991 BMW I bought. It was a lean sale so I didn't get any info from the previous owner. And I didn't get the alarm keypad. The battery was always dying on me (I work at home so I didn't drive it much). After a few years of dealing with this I finally figured out the alarm was always going off, but the horn wire had been cut. So it was getting about a 2 amp draw ever couple of seconds. Talk about a parasitic drain! The alarm itself was well hidden so it took me some time to find it and pull the fuse.
OK, I am telling that story because between that and trying to keep from burning up the RV house battery, I spent quite some time learning about charging vehicle batteries (and about draining them).
Griff, you may remember making a remark about the jury-rigged switch in one of the pictures I posted awhile back. This switch does just what you suggested. It switches the charger in the converter out of the circuit and connects an external multi-stage charger. I don't switch it while anything 12v is on. Right now I don't have any sensitive electronics in my system so the multi-stage charging voltage doesn't affect anything. Actually, the only 12v things are all incandescent lights. I would like to replace these with LEDs and this is why I am concerned about the higher voltages.
I lot of RV LED light bulb purchasers write in their reviews that several of the LED bulbs they purchased burned out either right away or in a few days. They attribute this to poor QC or shoddy manufacturing, but I do expect many of them burn out due to high voltage.
I also note that some of the more expensive LEDs state that they handle something like 10-16 volts. I assume since this is listed as a feature (and they cost more) that others cannot handle such a wide voltage range.
Other more expensive electronics that might be affected include TVs, DVD players, laptop computers, etc. If any of these use a transformer to convert 120VAC to 12VDC you could eliminate these and plug them directly into the RV's 12VDC circuit (provided it was regulated). Of course, you could use an inverter, but there is a large loss of battery power to convert from 12VDC to 120VAC then back to 12VDC. You sure don't want to risk burning any of these items up because of unregulated voltage.
I do doubt that newer charger/converters have voltage regulation because all the stand-alone 30 amp voltage regulators I have seen are $150 and up. This would add considerably to the price of the converter.
Most (all?) of what you said is very valid and correct. I will add some comments, more for others than you.
Regarding your experience with your '91 BMW -- there's two interpretation of POS -- 'previous owners' or 'pieces of ...' (Both apply to some people.)
Little known is the increase of electronics in vehicles over the past 20-25 years creates a small but steady parasitic drain on batteries. Implicit in the design of these vehicles is the assumption the vehicle will be used every 7-10 days, allowing the drain on the battery to be replaced regularly. (i.e., the battery will be recharged through regular use before the battery is completely drained.)
There are means to offset or prevent this situation but those would mean an increase in vehicle cost ... and 'round the flagpole we go again.
Stark evidence of this is every time a military unit returns from a lengthy deployment or exercise. (There's two large military installations in the Fairbanks area.) All Fairbanks stores selling batteries consistently experienced a huge stream of customers seeking new or warrantied replacement batteries. This was especially acute in the winter, with many batteries frozen and even split open. (My military contacts indicated many cases of explosions on base/post when troops tried to recharge frozen batteries.)
What you're experiencing and going through is 'been there, done that' for me. When I got my 1970 Explorer Class A (on a 1969 M300 chassis), I didn't know a **** thing about RV power converters. (General knowledge about power supplies and battery chargers but nothing specific to that application.) I 'murdered' several batteries before I figured out the power converter was overcharging them. I eventually developed a work around to deal with things.
Where I am today has involved a lot of research ... and that research is ongoing. Some of that research has involve lengthy, in-depth email discussions with engineers and technicians at companies like Schumacher Electric and Blue Sea Systems. That's what I'm bring to this thread.
More 'robust' electronics means more cost ... so "you get what you pay for" is at least partially true. Higher cost is an indicator -- to a limited degree -- of better quality. Progressive Dynamics power converters are at the upper end of the price range. This, along with Leeann's experience and some internet digging on my part, leads me to believe their products are among the best available.
I have firm reason to believe some higher cost power converters largely eliminate the problems people experience with old and/or less expensive versions. (This assumes the power converter is properly installed and used ... it's impossible to eliminate the possibility of an inexperienced person -- or fool -- misusing something.)
Gotten run ... there's some pressing IRL issues I need to deal with.
LEDs: The U.S. government's restrictions on incandescent lightbulbs has opened the door to a lucrative market in fluorescent and LED lights. Overseas companies are diving through that door in a large herd to make a quick buck. Many of these are 'here today, gone tomorrow.'
So, LEDs burning out is very likely due to inadequate quality control and shoddy manufacturing. From what I've observed, very few 'burnouts' are due to excess voltage.
Regulated output: It's probably not mentioned because quality power converters from reliable companies are presumed to include that feature. (Why mention something 'everyone' includes? It'd be the equivalent of saying, "Our lightbulbs produce light.")
Only the sellers of cheap sub-par power converters would have any reason to mention regulated or filtered output. Then, the mention could be interpreted as an attempt to say "our (cheap) power converter is (very slightly) better than worthless."
It's out there, I've seen it ... companies making statements that cast doubt on the quality of the product they're offering. (Some of it may be due to marketing and sales departments carelessly 'cherry-picking' terms, phrases, and statements ... without listening to the engineers or allowing them to proofread what's being put out to consumers.)
* This post was edited 11/15/17 07:30pm by Griff in Fairbanks *
Here is the link to the lamps,
but they also produce chargers, transfer switches and converter
'79 Dodge Sportsman 5.9 LA 360 TEC Campmate
Eric Hysteric wrote:
Sorry for the confusion. The name of the factory is plural Progressive Dynamics.
Here is the link to the lamps,
but they also produce chargers, transfer switches and converter
Sorry for the confusion. The name of the factory is plural Progressive Dynamics.
Here is the link to the lamps,
but they also produce chargers, transfer switches and converter
Eric - same company as what Leeann has. Unfortunately, they don't have versions for EU 220VAC so you'd need a step-down transformer to use one of their power converters. (Also, thanks for pointing out PD offers light fixtures, including LED fixtures. I've added PD to my list of likely sources for light fixtures.)
TreeSeeker - I took another look at the specifications for Progressive Dynamics power converters. You shouldn't/won't have any worries with one of those.
Their summary, at the top of the page, specifically mentions "filtered DC power". Filtered output power is regulated and is a step better than output that's merely regulated.
Examination of specifications indicate "no load" output is 13.6VDC, plus or minus 0.3VDC. "Full load" output is less than 12.6VDC. (Full load means everything turned on and drawing close to the converter's max amp rating.) So, under-voltage might be, but usually not, an issue for some electronic devices and electric motors.
In terms of LEDs, this is close to ideal, leaving the only remaining issue inadequate quality control or shoddy manufacturing of the LEDs.
The battery and charger is 'back-end' and not a factor in the output voltage to the coach (house) circuits. I also get the impression the converter deals with, as best it can, with voltage drop-off when the battery is the sole electrical source for extended periods.
I had only 1 battery for the engine and the home.
I bought an in Europe very popular Victron Cyrix-ct 12/24V-120A battery disconnect relais and a second battery.
![[image]](https://www.batterymegastore.co.uk/media/catalog/product/cache/1/image/400x400/9df78eab33525d08d6e5fb8d27136e95/c/y/cyrix-ct.jpg)
![[image]](https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51Bx-ZlWZZL.jpg)
Eric Hysteric wrote:
I bought in Poland (my mother is living there) for 25 $ an used "Schaudt" transformer with IUoU charging method. It's better for my battery than the 40 years old transformer i have now.
I had only 1 battery for the engine and the home.
I bought an in Europe very popular Victron Cyrix-ct 12/24V-120A battery disconnect relais and a second battery.
I bought in Poland (my mother is living there) for 25 $ an used "Schaudt" transformer with IUoU charging method. It's better for my battery than the 40 years old transformer i have now.
I had only 1 battery for the engine and the home.
I bought an in Europe very popular Victron Cyrix-ct 12/24V-120A battery disconnect relais and a second battery.
I've done a bit of research, resulting in evidence your purchases are good.
IUoU charging is three-stage charging and a DIN-designation. DIN-designation is a long time body of standards that are widely recognized and referenced.
DIN is a German language acronym, translated into English as German Institute for Standardization. In this respect, it is similar to ANSI and other organizations. DIN is also part of ISO, with DIN-designations probably subsumed into ISO standards.
Because your charger's design and operation is based on a recognized independent standard, it gets a 'plus mark' in terms of my personal preferences. (I'm not aware of any similar standard for 'three-stage charging' in the United States and would need to do some digging to see what the ISO standard is, if one exists.)
The Victron Cyrix-ct 12/24V-120A is similar to the Blue Sea Systems m-ACR in function and operation. ACR means Automatic Charging Relay, which is a term I prefer over battery disconnect. (Battery disconnect is a loose term applied to a wide range of products with significant differences in function and operation ... for example, antiquated 'battery isolators' are sometimes called battery disconnects.)
The Cyrix-ct is better than the m-ACR in terms of max amp rating. (Cyrix-st is rated 120 amps while m-ACR is 65 amps.)
m-ACR is suitable for small to medium outboard motors and engines with (in modern terms) relatively small alternators. The OEM alternator in older motorhomes was/is 65 amps so an m-ACR could be used there. The m-ACR is a 'no-go' for older motorhomes with larger retrofitted or aftermarket alternators, as well as most newer vehicles with larger OEM alternators.
I consider the Blue Sea Systems m-ACR a marginal option for older motorhomes because it's amp rating is too close (actually identical) to OEM alternator output. (As a general design criteria, an automatic charging relay's rating should be at least ten amps higher than the alternator's output.)
Blue Sea Systems does offer ACRs with higher ratings but they are significantly more expensive and include additional features that aren't relevant to my applications. The Cyrix-ct does one job and presumably does it well, while probably costing less than the Blue Sea Systems alternatives. (K.I.S.S.)
All in all, the Cyrix-ct appears to be a better option than the m-ACR for our older motorhomes.
So, Eric, I'd appreciate knowing what you paid for your Cyrix-ct. (DM or EU is fine, I can convert to USD.)
Likewise, I'd appreciate a post-installation report on how it works for you.
It does seem considerably better than the old battery isolators these RVs came with. This one is two-way, where the originals are only one way.
However, these types of things seem to just be making a battery bank out of two dissimilar batteries which is not recommended. Especially if the two batteries are not of the same size, age, and type.
So I do wonder what the long term effects of this will be.
Ideally, I would think, each battery needs its own multi-stage charger. This is even more complicated since they need multi-stage charging both when on shore power and engine alternator power. And maybe even solar and generator power too. Yikes!
It is all hard to grasp.
So, the price is a bit better (less) than the m-ACR. (Still going with the m-ACR for the boat but have shifted to the Cyrtix-ct for MLP.)
TreeSeeker wrote:
It does seem considerably better than the old battery isolators these RVs came with. This one is two-way, where the originals are only one way.
However, these types of things seem to just be making a battery bank out of two dissimilar batteries which is not recommended. Especially if the two batteries are not of the same size, age, and type.
So I do wonder what the long term effects of this will be.
Ideally, I would think, each battery needs its own multi-stage charger. This is even more complicated since they need multi-stage charging both when on shore power and engine alternator power. And maybe even solar and generator power too. Yikes!
It is all hard to grasp.
It does seem considerably better than the old battery isolators these RVs came with. This one is two-way, where the originals are only one way.
However, these types of things seem to just be making a battery bank out of two dissimilar batteries which is not recommended. Especially if the two batteries are not of the same size, age, and type.
So I do wonder what the long term effects of this will be.
Ideally, I would think, each battery needs its own multi-stage charger. This is even more complicated since they need multi-stage charging both when on shore power and engine alternator power. And maybe even solar and generator power too. Yikes!
It is all hard to grasp.
The questions you've raise and concerns you've expressed are entirely valid and on-point. These are also issues that have concerned me for a long time and have spent well over a decade seeking answers. As I mentioned previously, I've had lengthy discussions with experts, on this topic specifically. (In this case, 'experts' means electrical engineers and technicians, kept in companies' back rooms out of reach of the general public.)
The 'old battery isolators' tended to create more problems than the solved. For this reason, I rip them out and throw them away whenever I encounter one.
While not ideal, the Cyrtix-ct and m-ACR are the best available today for this purpose. (I'm still looking ... and will report if I find something better.)
I know what would be ideal for our purposes and have laid out draft conceptual and functional design. However, limited application means low market demand and significantly greater cost to the consumer.
I won't go into my background, other than mention one senior commander told me, point-blank, "You have an annoying tendency to be right."
Having said that, I encourage you to go over the same ground I've covered. I would be remiss if I didn't encourage independent research, both for confirmation and conflicting information and views.
ABS Alaskan is a good place to discuss your concerns and questions. Their previous name was Alaska Battery Systems and they have a lengthy track record and reputation for reliable systems like those in our motorhomes. (They started out focusing on RV systems and expanded to off-grid systems that integrate battery banks, inverters, solar panels, and gensets.)
(I haven't been in contact with ABS Alaska recently so they may have new/additional information I haven't encountered.)
Dissimilar batteries is an issue I've explored extensively. m-ACR includes design and testing criteria for the probability of dissimilar batteries, verified through discussions with a Blue Sea Systems engineer/technician. (I'm confident Crytix-ct is identical in this respect.)
The charging systems in our older motorhomes are effectively automatic single-stage battery chargers, like the chargers that existed in the late 1960s and 1970s. The systems in new vehicles are capable of performing the first and second stages. To the best of my knowledge, no vehicle has a system capable of three-stage charging.
(The characteristics of the third -- 'float' -- stage makes it arguably impossible in a motor vehicle.)
Note: Some newer OEM-type voltage regulators for our older motorhomes actually have two-stage charging capability. (Some are closer to OEM and still single stage. Others have been updated to better-than-OEM two-stage operation. Which are which is almost to tell, with price probably being the best indication.)
The limitations of motor vehicle charging systems is the reason I regularly (at least monthly) connect a three-stage charger to vehicle batteries, even when it's apparently not necessary.
The adverse effects on the battery due to vehicle charging systems is partially offset by the engine's electrical system cycling (i.e., exercising) the battery during operation.
Every electrical system, with multiple power sources, tries to reach voltage equilibrium. In particular, a discharged battery will act as a circuit load, drawing power from the more fully charged battery.
The worst case is a significantly discharged deep cycle battery sucking enough power out of a SLI (engine) battery to damage the SLI battery due to excessive discharge.
Quote:
Ideally, I would think, each battery needs its own multi-stage charger.
Ideally, I would think, each battery needs its own multi-stage charger.
Very valid and something I've advocated extensively.
The m-ACR and Cyrtix-ct should only be used when the engine is running. They're both designed to be used in other situations but limiting use to when the engine is running is best.
(There's a means of automatically turning off either when the engine isn't running ... I will describe it in a later post.)