scotteam
LEWISTON maine
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Deisel all the way! dEISEL IS DESIGNED TO TOW AND LAST LONGER THEN GAS!
Scot St. Hilaire
2012 north country 30bhs
2008 Chevy silverado 4x4 5.3 1500
9400 towing capacity
http://sthilaireinspectionandcontracting.com/
http://www.campgroundtalk.com/
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Ag Teacher
Oklahoma
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Is anyone else as tired of the eye rolling smiley as me.
PSD has yet to prove any of Bert's comments incorrect - all he can come up with is sarcasim.
Sure the F-250 has a heavy duty frame - heavy duty frames are heavy - so since the truck is hauling around that heavy frame, you don't have any GVWR left payload.
Bert didn't say anyone would get stopped for exceeding the GVWR, he said it was illegal. Just because a law isn't enforced doesn't make the law go away. Here's an example of another here: 6K GVW Vehicles Illegal on CA Streets
Surly one has to agree if two trucks have the same gvw and one has an engine that weighs 500 pounds more, the truck with the lighter (Gas) engine is going to have 500 pounds more payload. It's 3rd grade math: GVW - Curb Weight = Payload.
Will a diesel exceeding it manufacturers tow rating out run a gas engine within it's tow ratings? More than likely. Will it "Tow Better"? More than likely. But that doens't change the fact that it's overloaded and the gas truck isn't.
Just so you'll know, every time we see the smiley with the rolling eyes, you can be sure our human eyes are rolling to. We've getting rolling eye smiley overkill in this forum.
2005 Explorer by Frontier RV T265
Yamaha EF3000iSEB Generator
2005 Chevrolet 2500HD Ext. Cab LS, 4x4, 6.0, 5 speed manual
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BertP
Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
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Thanks for the support, Brad (Ag Teacher).
Now, I think I will touch on a couple of topics from some other threads that I think belongs here:
1) It has been said a number of times on this forum that of all of the pickups towing trailers, 99% of them are diesels. I think that is a little on the optimistic side. When you consider that 0% of 1/2 tons have diesels and that they make up a good percentage of all of the TV's, you can see that the percentage of diesels drops considerably. Add to that the fact that there are quite a few 3/4 and 1 ton gassers out there, the percentage os diesels drops even further. Personally, I don't think that diesels account for more than (I'm going out on a limb here ![[emoticon]](http://www.coastresorts.com/sharedcontent/cfb/images/smile.gif "smile") ) 10 - 20% of TV's.
2) I don't know how often I have seen comments to the effect that, if you buy a diesel, you won't be able to get that silly grin off your face. I know I can't speak for everyone, but after having owned a 1500HD gasser and now having a 2500HD diesel, I can honestly say that for pure driving fun, a diesel doesn't hold a candle to a gasser. My 1500HD was far more responsive, nimbler and just plain old sporty than my DMax is. And, while I am no expert on the Dodge or Ford diesels, I did test drive both and neither came close to my 1500HD in all around driving enjoyment. Don't get me wrong, I like my DMax and have every intention of keeping it, but it really lumbers down the highway when compared to the 1500HD.
I know that many of you are going to say something to the effect of "But which is a better tow vehicle". That's a perfectly legitimate question. After all, the only reason I have a truck is to pull my 5er. So, which is the better TV? No comparison: the 2500HD beats the 1500HD hands down! Because of the diesel? NO! Because it has a DVD player!!! I have two very rambunctious little boys who have to be kept entertained through the long hours on the road. We tend to forget in these diesel vs gasser discussions that the engine is only one part of our TV. We really have to look at the entire vehicle and see if it fits what our families need. If it does, we have a winner. If it doesn't, we will come up short.
Bert
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tgatch
Meridian, ID
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Quote:Just because a law isn't enforced doesn't make the law go away. Here's an example of another here: 6K GVW Vehicles Illegal on CA Streets
And just because it is a law doesn't make it valid. There are some cities where walking and chewing gum is illegal still.
Here's a law for you:
Quote:In Los Angeles, a man is legally entitled to beat his wife with a leather belt or strap, but the belt can't be wider than 2 inches, unless he has his wife's consent to beat her with a wider strap.
Try and get away with that one.....
Here are a few more to look at:
http://www.main.com/~anns/other/humor/sillylaws.html
As far as the diesel vs gas thing goes, take two engines one has 235HP @ 4250RPMS with 335lbs-ft @ 3,000RPMS and the other has 235HP @ 2700RPMS with 500lbs-ft@1800RPMS. Which of these two engines is going to pull better? Equal HP they should be equal right? Which engine would you choose to pull your 10,000lbs 5er?
Yes sack, I know I am comparing a small block to a diesel, but Bert has always stated that HP is king. I have two engines producing the same HP so all should be equal. Who wants to load up a couple 10,000lbs 5ers and pull a 6% grade with both of these engines? Rolling start or from a dead stop, it really doesn't matter. If it were put your money where your mouth is, which do you choose? And none of this, if properly geared it would be a dead heat.
Tom
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Collin
Victoria BC
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Joined: 03/22/2003
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Quote:
I know I can't speak for everyone, but after having owned a 1500HD gasser and now having a 2500HD diesel, I can honestly say that for pure driving fun, a diesel doesn't hold a candle to a gasser.
Bert
Gotta disagree with you here.
Just came back from a trip out to Long Beach on the West Coast of Vancouver Island. It is a nasty twisty road through the mountains that eats RV's for breakfast. Well, I had an absolute blast driving my 12,000 lb behemoth through those roads. The diesel with 6 speed was an absolute joy to drive. Between 4th, 5th and 6th I never lacked for power.
My last gasser would have been whimpering like a little baby.
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PSDExcursion
Millstone NJ
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Quote:Sure the F-250 has a heavy duty frame - heavy duty frames are heavy - so since the truck is hauling around that heavy frame, you don't have any GVWR left payload.
BS, the 4x4 F250 has the same chassis as the 4x4 SRW F350 that has a 9,900 lb GVWR.
2002 Chevy Express 3500 8.1 155" WB passenger van
41 Ft 2003 Thor Citation 41-ZBSR TT w/ Hensley Arrow
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PSDExcursion
Millstone NJ
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Quote:PSD has yet to prove any of Bert's comments incorrect - all he can come up with is sarcasim
OMG you people are so clueless . How many of you have seen a 5.4 V8 tow a heavy TT better than a 7.3 PSD ? If HP was king then they would put the 500HP V10 from the Dodge SRT-10 pickup in an 80,000 lb 18 wheeler and climb I-70 west of Denver as good as a 500HP diesel with 1650 ft lbs tq.
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Ag Teacher
Oklahoma
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Quote:Quote:Sure the F-250 has a heavy duty frame - heavy duty frames are heavy - so since the truck is hauling around that heavy frame, you don't have any GVWR left payload.
BS, the 4x4 F250 has the same chassis as the 4x4 SRW F350 that has a 9,900 lb GVWR.
While it is true they have the same components, it is also true they are rated different. I don't have a problem with overloading my self since I've pulled trailers weighing 17,000 pounds with a truck having a 13,500 GCWR (It has a gas engine by the way - vortec 350).
However, The point dealt with max load without exceeding the GVWR. Since you call it BS, I'll trade trucks and make the same point.
I'll take a F-350 SRW with a gas engine and 9900 GVW and you can have a F-350 SRW with a PSD. If we put them both on a scale and start loading them up, you will hit GVW before me because your truck weighs more to start with. Is your truck going to out run mine with the load - possibly. But that's not the point. The point is, the gas engine trucks can carry more weight without exceeding manufacturers ratings. That is why the Chevy/GMC, up until this past model year, had a higher tow rating with the 8.1 gas engine than with the Duramax - because they had the same GCWR and the gas engine was lighter.
And since your a Ford Nut...Look here https://www.fleet.ford.com/products/rv_trailer_towing/2004/2004_default.asp under F-250/350 pickups. If you look you'll see that a F-350 SRW with a V-10 and 4.30 gears is rated to tow 13,700. The same truck with a PSD is rated to tow 13,300. What part of this would you like to call BS. Must be because of the lighter engine, don't you think.
Quote:OMG you people are so clueless . How many of you have seen a 5.4 V8 tow a heavy TT better than a 7.3 PSD ? If HP was king then they would put the 500HP V10 from the Dodge SRT-10 pickup in an 80,000 lb 18 wheeler and climb I-70 west of Denver as good as a 500HP diesel with 1650 ft lbs tq.
No-one in the forum has said the gas will "tow better" than the diesel. "Tow better" is all you want to talk about and it's a subjective term. What Bert has always said is that an engine with 325 horsepower has more power than an engine with 300 horsepower. It is true that the Dodge SRT has more power than a cat 400 HP diesel but it is not true they can do the same things with the power. Because of torque, the 400 CAT will get a bigger load going. However, the Dodge will move the pickup much faster. They aren't tuned to do the same thing - but since we measure engine power in a increments called horsepower, the dodge has more.
As far as the comment about the 5.4 vrs the Diesel - 235 horsepower is enough to move 18,000 (10K trailer and 8K truck) pounds up a a 6% grade at 60 mph. So, if I'm only going up this grade once or twice a month and the rest of the time I'm driving the truck the rest of the time to work and through drive thru banks and restaurants, give me the gas truck. I'll put it in 3rd gear (I like 5 speed manuals) and I'll scream up the hill. I'd rather have the engine scream a few times per month than have to listen to it clatter every day and have to shut it off to order my kid's McNuggets (like many diesel guys do).
If I'm pulling this hill loaded daily - I'll take the diesel. Moral of the story - All of you guys that say a diesel is what everyone should have are being presumptuous. Everyone has different priorities. Don't try to push yours on everyone else.
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BertP
Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
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Joined: 11/07/2003
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Quote:As far as the diesel vs gas thing goes, take two engines one has 235HP @ 4250RPMS with 335lbs-ft @ 3,000RPMS and the other has 235HP @ 2700RPMS with 500lbs-ft@1800RPMS. Which of these two engines is going to pull better? Equal HP they should be equal right? Which engine would you choose to pull your 10,000lbs 5er?
Yes sack, I know I am comparing a small block to a diesel, but Bert has always stated that HP is king. I have two engines producing the same HP so all should be equal. Who wants to load up a couple 10,000lbs 5ers and pull a 6% grade with both of these engines? Rolling start or from a dead stop, it really doesn't matter. If it were put your money where your mouth is, which do you choose? And none of this, if properly geared it would be a dead heat.
Tom
First, let me address the "HP is king" statement. I said in the "Out of power on hill? what happens?" thread:
However, I think that the statements "HP is King" or "Torque rules" are both crocks of horse feathers. I don't think many people even know what they are. For example, when someone says that their engine produces 500 lb ft of torque @ 1800 rpm, what are they talking about? In a word: horsepower. Torque does not have an rpm component to it. When you add an rpm component, you are then, whether you like it or not, talking HP. But, when someone does mention HP, people think they are referring to the max that an engine can produce. It's almost as if people believe that an engine can only produce HP at whatever rpm it produces its max HP. My DMax only generates 10 more HP than the 6 liter gasser I had. But, at 1600 rpm (the DMax's max torque point), the DMax generates more than twice the HP that the gasser can. So, if you want the gasser to be on an even footing with the diesel, you have to allow the gasser to rev to what ever point it generates the same HP as the diesel. Unfortunately, not only does the DMax produce more power at 1600 rpm, its tranny has higher gearing in first gear so the gasser is doubly penalized.
The most telling statement in your post, though, Tom is And none of this, if properly geared it would be a dead heat.. Like it or not, that is the one fact upon which the entire outcome of the race you suggest rides. Don't believe it? How about a few examples:
1) Two Chevy 2500HD's identical in every respect except that one has a DMax and the other has an 8.1. We know, based upon real world races and specs published by GM that these two trucks would be in a dead heat in any race. But, let's make a small modification: Let's set the shift points for the trannies to be exactly the same. At WOT, the tranny will upshift at 3000 rpm. Would that make any difference to the outcome of the race? Well, the DMax generates its max power at 3000 rpm, so a shift under full load at that point would be perfect. But, look at the power chart for the 8.1:
![[image]](http://www.gm.com/automotive/gmpowertrain/engines/vortec/apps/vehicle/images/l18curve.jpg)
In spite of the fact that the 8.1 is a 340 HP engine, we have just effectively restricted it to around 250 HP. So, which truck would win a race up a hill in this case?
2) In the 60's, my mom had a 1966 Pontiac Strato Chief with a 250 cid straight 6 and a PowerGlide tranny. Now, what do you think would happen to the performance of my 2500HD D/A if I were to remove the Allison and replace it with the PowerGlide from my mom's car? Let's ignore for the moment that that tranny would probably explode the moment I mashed the throttle - it has been beefed up to handle the torque of my DMax. I did a Google search and found that the gear ratios in that tranny are: 1st-1.76; 2nd-1.0. That's it, just two gears. You have to admit that that tranny would effectively neuter my DMax. In a pulling contest, I bet my Chevy Venture with its 3.4 V6 would beat that truck up a hill. Note that I have not changed the engine in any way. I have just screwed the truck up by giving it a tranny that has far from optimum gearing.
3) A while ago, a post was made by aquaduct on this same subject. He said, in part:
The trick ended up being that the C12 hits rated power at about 1800 rpm, the Cobra somewhat shy of 7000 rpm. So they took a point on the HP curves of something like 375 hp. The C12 hit that at 1200 rpm and 1650 lb/ft of torque and the Cobra hit it at 5500 rpm and 350 lb/ft of torque. I'm not sitting with figures in front of me, but you can use the above equation to get more precise.
Torque can be changed by gear ratios so they went on to add a gear reduction (think transmission) to the Cobra of about 4.5/1 and it ends up giving you an output speed of 1200 rpm AND torque of 1650 lb/ft.
So, the Cobra engine, through gearing, gives exactly the same HP and torque output of the Cat. For the example you give, if both engines have optimum gearing it will be a dead heat.
4) You say that torque is the deciding factor in these races. OK, let's take my 2500HD D/A again and make one modification to it: Change the programming of the tranny so that the shift point, under load, is 2000 rpm. Notice that, at 2000 rpm, the DMax is already comfortably passed its max torque point, so I have not restricted its torque output. But, at 2000 rpm, that engine will produce a max of around 200 HP. If I run that truck in a race up a hill with a 10K lb 5er against the 1500HD I had, which would win? Off the line, the DMax would still have the advantage because it produces much more HP than the 6 l at low rpm, but once the 6 l got passed its 200 HP point, it would blow the doors off that DMax engined truck because it is capable of producing 50% more HP than the DMax in this configuration. Before you complain that this is not a fair comparison, check here and you can see that GM changes the output of the DMax in for different applications.
5) Many (most?) people on this forum feel that the deciding factor in determining how a given engine will perform or whether it will be a good tow engine is torque. I am looking at the power curve for an engine that makes a max of around 600 lb-ft of torque. Sounds like a great engine for your TV, doesn't it? The problem is that its operating rpm range is 4800 - 8000 rpm. It is a turbo charged Buick 3.4 l V6 putting out 600 lb-ft @ 6400 rpm and 800 HP @ 8000 rpm. Would this engine blow the doors off any engine in this forum? You bet! At 800 HP, it would take 2 and a half of your favorite diesels in a pickup to come close to the pulling power of this engine. Is it the best tow engine of any on this forum? I can't speak for others, but I wouldn't want it in my TV.
I know that you have accused me in the past of dancing around these issues, but I think you are trying to take a complicated subject and boil it down to a few issues. You cannot estimate the performance of a vehicle based upon the engine specs alone. Yes, they are important, but there are all kind of other factors that must be taken into consideration before you can get even close to accurate performance predictions.
Bert
* This post was
edited 08/13/04 08:19am by BertP *
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BertP
Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
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Quote:Gotta disagree with you here.
Just came back from a trip out to Long Beach on the West Coast of Vancouver Island. It is a nasty twisty road through the mountains that eats RV's for breakfast. Well, I had an absolute blast driving my 12,000 lb behemoth through those roads. The diesel with 6 speed was an absolute joy to drive. Between 4th, 5th and 6th I never lacked for power.
My last gasser would have been whimpering like a little baby.
I totally agree with you. But, I was referring to just tooling around with an empty truck. After all, for most of us, our truck will be empty for the vast majority of the driving we do with it.
As for your last gasser whimpering, what was it? You cannot effectively compare a 200 HP gasser with a 325 HP diesel. They are worlds apart.
Bert
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