wnjj
Cornelius, Oregon
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Super_Dave wrote:Maybe I haven't ever looked close enough but is there anywhere on the jack that tells you what model # it is?
I think there are stickers on mine. You likely have 4600 like I do. I think those are the only model with quick release levers.
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jjinatx
Austin, TX, USA
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Joined: 11/25/2003
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stevenal wrote:The hanger trick didn't work for me. Anyone know of a two jaw long narrow gear puller that would fit in the tube?
Stevenal,
I used a 3 or 4" piece of R45 welding rod - may be a bit stiffer than a coat hanger. Don't put much of a hook on it - mine is just a straight 90 deg bend and is not very long - it fits between the vertical shaft and the bevel gear. I also put another hook at the top end and either grip it with a folded rag or a pair of needlenose. Popped all 4 off at least once easy as pie. And be careful where you do it, because they can go flying.
-jj
Current Rig: 2017 F350 Crew Cab Short Bed 4X4 Powerstroke, 2018 Grand Design Reflection 29RS. Dearly Departed: 2003 GMC Sierra 3500 Dually, 2002 Bigfoot 25C10.6.
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MTBob
Montana
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bigfootford wrote:When I lubed my 4600 for the first time they were really rough. I used my 1/2 inch drill attached to the end of the screw and ran it back and forth the whole length about 20 times adding grease and wiping off the excess at the end of the full in and full out runs. They freed up and were slick as could be.
When I found a rough spot I would run it back and forth right there, adding wd40 and then grease. I inspected the area of the screw but found no damage. I think old dry grease/ shavings/rust was caked in the screw threads. Jim
IMHO, I am not a fan of WD40 for other than applying to unimportant places, i.e. lawn mower wheel axles... or, better yet, for coating bass lures (great for catching fish!). I carry a couple cans in the boat all the time. I wouldn't use it on a HJ, the stuff has a tendency to gum up after a while and, frankly, I don't think it has all that good lubrication properties. If you want to use a light weight oil, I'd recommend something like TriFlow or Lubriplate spray oils. WD40 does work great as a lubricant when machining aluminum.
Bob
2002 10-2000RR Northern Lite
2008 Chevy 3500 DMAX, SRW,
2001 Lund 1700 Fisherman
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MTBob
Montana
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wnjj wrote:Super_Dave wrote:Maybe I haven't ever looked close enough but is there anywhere on the jack that tells you what model # it is?
I think there are stickers on mine. You likely have 4600 like I do. I think those are the only model with quick release levers.
My 2002 4100's have a quick release lever.
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MTBob
Montana
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jjinatx wrote:MTBob,
I took apart the clutch in the motor that was popping and could see that it had indeed been recently slipping. Mine is a bit different than yours. It has 6 ball bearings that are smaller than yours. Also, I tested the torque on the clutch nut of a different motor and it looked to be about 30 - 35 inch-pounds, so that's what I set the one I took apart to.-jj
To confirm, your 4100 model had a six ball clutch? If so, you've now got me wondering if there is a difference in the 4100 model, depending on the year it was made.
Regarding the clutch nut torque: 30 - 35 inch-pounds is quite a bit different than what I used (9-10 inch-pounds). This seems odd since I would think that a six ball clutch would have more resistance than the 3 ball design that I have. In any case, I would rather error on the side of having the clutch set too loose than too tight. If the clutch is over tightened there is a risk of stripping gears or overloading the motor - (I'd guess that's what would happen).
It would sure be nice if HJ company provided some guidance as to parts lists, and full maintenance of these jacks.
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jjinatx
Austin, TX, USA
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MTBob wrote:
To confirm, your 4100 model had a six ball clutch? If so, you've now got me wondering if there is a difference in the 4100 model, depending on the year it was made.
Regarding the clutch nut torque: 30 - 35 inch-pounds is quite a bit different than what I used (9-10 inch-pounds). This seems odd since I would think that a six ball clutch would have more resistance than the 3 ball design that I have. In any case, I would rather error on the side of having the clutch set too loose than too tight. If the clutch is over tightened there is a risk of stripping gears or overloading the motor - (I'd guess that's what would happen).
It would sure be nice if HJ company provided some guidance as to parts lists, and full maintenance of these jacks.
No, the motor clutch I took apart is on a 4500 - not a 4100. I bet they use the same motor though, because HJ only sells one replacement motor. My camper is 2002 vintage I believe and these are the original jacks. I suspect there was a design change somewhere along the line, so if yours are newer, maybe they evolved from 6 to 3 balls or vice versa. Or maybe it's an issue of multiple suppliers. Also, the balls in my clutch look to be a LOT smaller than yours, so shallower depressions. Not sure how that would affect the torque settings.
I'm wondering if it would be OK to try overloading each motor individually to test the clutch in each one. If the motor stalls, then the clutch torque settings need to be backed off. I've never heard any of mine click before I had this frozen jack, but then I'm pretty careful about not retracting them so hard that the motor stalls or the clutch clicks. I usually stop them individually when I think they are all the way up and if I guess wrong and hear the motor bog, I stop immediately and back it off a bit.
I'm also questioning the accuracy of setting them by the torque on the nut. It's a lock nut, so the torque will be greatly affected by the drag of the plastic locking material, not just how tight the nut is against the spring plate. The drag of the plastic would be pretty specific to who made the nut, or even across lots, I would guess. Not sure what kind of SAE standards there are for lock nuts, and how tightly controlled they can be. It would seem that a nut that has been re-used would probably have less drag than a brand new one. A better solution for repeatable torque settings would be to torque a plain nut and then use a jamb nut to secure it.
I'm going to try one last ditch effort at saving my jack by trying to get a replacement thrust bearing at my local bearing supply house tomorrow. If I can't get a replacement, I'll try swapping a bearing from a good jack to the problem jack and see if the problem goes away.
-jj
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MTBob
Montana
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jjinatx wrote:
I'm also questioning the accuracy of setting them by the torque on the nut. It's a lock nut, so the torque will be greatly affected by the drag of the plastic locking material, not just how tight the nut is against the spring plate. The drag of the plastic would be pretty specific to who made the nut, or even across lots, I would guess. Not sure what kind of SAE standards there are for lock nuts, and how tightly controlled they can be. It would seem that a nut that has been re-used would probably have less drag than a brand new one. A better solution for repeatable torque settings would be to torque a plain nut and then use a jamb nut to secure it.-jj
You know, I think you are right. Something that I hadn't given much thought to - the friction differences that may arise between a new, relatively new, or very used plastic shake proof locking nut. This issue may be more pronounced with the small amount of torque applied to these relatively small nuts. The HJ tech guy said that 9-10 inch-pounds is what they use. So, I'd guess that means that with a new plastic lock nut... maybe. But, that still could lead to considerable differences in torque depending on the accuracy of the location and sizing of the plastic in the nut itself. And, making this even more curious is the apparent difference you used on your torque (30 -35 i-p) compared to what I used. I wouldn't think that difference would be attributed to simply the plastic design difference. From a repeatable design view, I think you are correct that two plain jamb nuts set with a torque wrench would be a better option. But... what is the correct torque then?
Now you've got really scratching my head on this clutch design. I'm going to go back and check the number of balls on my 4500 clutch - hopefully I took pictures of a 4500 . I'm not sure I did photograph them since they all looked the same.
Can you confirm how many balls your 4100 clutch has?
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MTBob
Montana
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jjinatx wrote:Update on my jack saga. It turns out my rear jacks are 4100 models, not 4500 models like the fronts. The 4100 is quite a bit different internally and I'll post some pics soon of the insides of them to add to this great thread. I also see evidence of lubrication on the 4100's and in fact did not seem like they needed re-lubing at all.
Bad news. The 4500 that had been given me problems and had frozen up appears to need replacing. Even after I re-lubed it and can turn it with my fingers on the bench, when it under load coming down it binds up occasionally. When it does, I have to unload some of the weight by lifting a bit on the opposite side. My best guess is that the mechanism that is preened into the top of the lower leg that the acme screw threads through is worn and binding under load. But before I order a new one, I'll take it apart once more for closer inspection and maybe replace the thrust bearing in case that is the problem.
I have a bit of a dilemma when it comes to replacing it. I can get one 4500 for about $350, or a pair of 4600 jacks for about $550 (the place only sells them in pairs). Is the 4600 worth upgrading to from the 4500? Is the only difference between them the quick released? Or is the mechanism stronger/better? Do I want to spend $200 extra now to save $150 just in case the other one goes out too?
If I do have to replace the jack, I'll cut it open and post some pics of the innards of the lower leg to this thread.-jj
If I could find a "deal" on 4100 and 4500 model jacks I'd buy one each and rebuild them as spares. Then rotate them when a jack on the camper acted up.
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wnjj
Cornelius, Oregon
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MTBob wrote:My 2002 4100's have a quick release lever.
That's good to know.
Super_Dave & I have the same brand & year of camper ('07) and I think 4600's were the only available quick release models then. I wonder what the difference is between a 4100 & 4600? Upgraded capacity maybe? They don't make the 4100 any more.
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jjinatx
Austin, TX, USA
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wnjj wrote:MTBob wrote:My 2002 4100's have a quick release lever.
That's good to know.
Super_Dave & I have the same brand & year of camper ('07) and I think 4600's were the only available quick release models then. I wonder what the difference is between a 4100 & 4600? Upgraded capacity maybe? They don't make the 4100 any more.
My 2002 4100's have only 1 lever for the motor release lever but it doesn't function as a "quick release".
The difference between the4500/4600 and the 4100 is a lot, though they look the same externally. 4500/4600 is rated for 1900# of lift and the 4100 for 1500#. Internally they are different as well (I'll post pics later). The specs for the 4150 are the same as the 4100, so I assume it's the replacement like the 4600 for the 4500? The 4100/4150 is about $100 cheaper than the 4500/4600.
You could replace a 4100 with a 4500/4600, but NOT the other way around, so if you want a single spare, get a 4500/4600.
-jj
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