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RE: EV alternative for light/medium duty trucks
Map40 said..."I still have my 2008 Chrysler Town & Country minivan that can haul as much as a truck but is much more efficient. And as I have a lifetime warranty bumper to bumper I will never get ride of it."
Tell us that minivan belongs to your spouse. Most men would not drive one, and certainly not want to be seen loading it up at HD, or Lowes. Actually SUVs became the popular soccer mom rig, as they wanted to regain self respect. :)
Jerry
See, I care for practical application and money in my pocket. If I have to drive my minivan in front of a bunch of contractors I could not care less what they think. I just know I can carry anything I need and I can drop it at the dealer and they will fix it for free...
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map40
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03/17/23 02:11pm |
Tow Vehicles
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RE: EV alternative for light/medium duty trucks
Silverado now starts at 70,000
Trucks have become really expensive and unfortunatly I don't think we have any EV truck that can replace current ICEs for most cases.
Good morning.
I’ll agree with that to some degree. Most half tons are used in more of an SUV that can bring a few bags of soil home role. Or maybe just haul a utility trailer to the dump with a load of leaves etc. The upcoming crop of electric half tons seem to do this fine. And the second generation e-half tons will be a big jump over ford lightnings etc.
I do think the shape of half tons will have to change though. This boxy square approach with no aerodynamics will fade as their upcoming more aero designed competition will kick then to the curb.
Jmho.
A good point. A lot of trucks are really not used as trucks, so why should they be one. Like SUVs became more cars than trucks, trucks can be more efficient if their use as trucks is only going to be infrequent.
I still have my 2008 Chrysler Town & Country minivan that can haul as much as a truck but is much more efficient. And as I have a lifetime warranty bumper to bumper I will never get ride of it.
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map40
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02/11/23 03:13pm |
Tow Vehicles
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RE: EV alternative for light/medium duty trucks
Silverado now starts at 70,000
Trucks have become really expensive and unfortunatly I don't think we have any EV truck that can replace current ICEs for most cases.
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map40
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02/11/23 07:44am |
Tow Vehicles
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RE: EV alternative for light/medium duty trucks
Dont care for any other EVs their quality just isnt there and never will be when CEO doesnt know what goes on down the line or hires incompetent enginers.
I agree with what you wrote except this. Tesla quality is knowned for being sub par on everything besides the EV components.
I have owned several EVs and modified/redesigned a ton of them and I can tell you that Teslas are neither the best quality nor the best design. The simply created the business. For example, BMW i3's have proven to have better quality than Tesla, and for some people (like me) is the perfect vehicle. Cheaper and more convenient than any other alternative, but of course, that is my case.
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map40
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02/11/23 07:42am |
Tow Vehicles
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RE: EV alternative for light/medium duty trucks
Ford and GM's cash cow it is and will be big ICEs for quite some time. The both are retiring from the car market because the competition is too tough and they own the truck and SUVs markets (I am not saying they are the best, just saying that is where they make money).
EVs will most likely thrive in the car market but will never take it over 100% because the technology can't compete with ICEs in every case.
A company that sells close to $400M per day (Ford and GM do) has to invest in keeping their cash cow alive. Comparing the EV investment to a new ICE power platform is like comparing buying a scratch-off to investing in your 401K...
EVs are not the final solution, but has the potential of reducing oil dependency (you can generate electricity in a lot of different ways). That alone is enough to justify it's existence.
Alternative technologies will come, but I still believe that they will be successfully only when they are cheaper/more convenient than the existing technology.
Last week I saw the latest hybrid-hydraulic car, and they have been working on that for a decade. It works great, but so far is, like so many other technologies, just a possible future solution, much like hydrogen, CNG, and others
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map40
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02/11/23 07:26am |
Tow Vehicles
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RE: EV alternative for light/medium duty trucks
@benny37, I have to laugh. I understand fully what body panel alignment is as well.
The funny part is while I’ve never driven a Tesla, you can’t swing a dead cat around here without hitting (seeing) one.
I have never once looked at one and thought, ugh that door gap is something only a mother could love….
Idk, pretty weak argument imo.
Coming from someone like me who’s decidedly pro dead dinosaurs vehicles, if one has to say stupid things to try to support their decision or argument, it’s time to pick another fight….
Grit agreed, I live in Tesla heaven, CA Wine Country. On a daily basis I see more of them now than say Camrys. In my neighborhood of 220 homes there are at least a dozen now 80% Model Ys.
There is a 12 stall Supercharger in the shopping center right outside the entrance to our development. Average 4 cars there at a time. There is no towing accessible stall so that will be entertaining when it comes about. I can’t recall ever seeing a Tesla towing anything around here though. Being a manual wheelchair user I thought it was cool they have an Accessible stall. The bummer is I have never seen a more cheated spot.
I was 40 year Maintenance Tech on Bizjets so I have a good eye for detail and I think the panel gap deal is over blown. Maybe early on.
I will say the only Tesla I’ve ever seen on a tow truck was Model X with one of the Falcon doors half open.
Let me explain my point of view on the matter. The point is not the panel gap, it is the reason why there is a panel gap. It simply talks about how good the dimensional control of the stamping process and the designs is. Fit & finish simply tell you how well everything comes toghether. For us, the guys forged in the automotive industry, that is the tell sign of a vehicle that was design with an inmature process.
Normally you make the assumption that the rest of the systems have the same issue, and it shows in the statistics. Testa is the leader in Electric vehicles technology and software, but the rest of the vehicle is 3 to 4 times worse than the industry average, showing the exact problem that the "big gaps" insinuate: inmature design and process.
The other automakers don't have such as many electrical, suspension, doors, or lights issues because they have been building vehicles for a long time.
The best example is the Nissan Leaf. The car is bullet-proof. Unbeatable from every angle, except the battery technology. Due to lack of cooling, unpropperly used batteries would significantly degrade rapidly. (And most people are unaware on how to use it). Tesla has a great battery system in comparison.
Today you can find Leafs in Europe with 300K miles stil with original everything, exccept the battery.
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map40
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01/24/23 11:08am |
Tow Vehicles
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RE: Flying J / Pilot to install megachargers for med/heavy trks
There seems to be a lot of peripheral arguments both for and against EV's. As run100 just posted above its hard to get all the facts about EV's, but to me math does not lie. So, if you look at it in simple terms and compare apples to apples most EV's that I have looked at take 30 KW's to drive 100 miles. In my state they just raised my electric rate to 33 cents per KW. So, to drive 100 miles in an EV it cost $9.90. My Rav4 hybrid gets 42 MPGs on average, so it takes 2.4 gals to drive 100 miles. At $3.00/gal that is $7.20 at $4.00/gal that is $9.60. That is not cheaper for me where I live. When I looked at a tesla several years ago, I plotted a trip to Florida. Their GPS gives you all the charging stations along the way. They varied from 34 to 50 cents /KW which I'm sure by now they have gone up also. At 50 cents a KW it would cost $15 for every 100 you travel. $225 from CT to Florida vs $144 in my RAV4 at $4.00/gal. So, unless you live in a low-cost state, have access to free charging and don't drive long trips where you need a fast charger, to me an EV is not cheaper to drive.
And if those are the numbers I would have done exactly the same thing. I pay less than $0.07 per kw, so I would use $2.10 for charging 30kw, and with that I do 120 to 150 miles. For me, it was a no brainer also. But that is only my case, and as I said, I only look at my pocket and my convenience when I decide to buy my car. EVs are not for everybody, they can't be.
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map40
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01/22/23 05:10pm |
General RVing Issues
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RE: Flying J / Pilot to install megachargers for med/heavy trks
We own a hybrid that gets 42-mpg and completely love it! It's quiet, economical and a pleasure to drive. Trying to determine where and how everything we own or consume is made, and under what conditions, is beyond my ability.
Add on top of that the never ending lies and attempts to manipulate the population, not based on facts, but to accomplish ones own quest for power and money, regardless of reality or the impact on others. Again, that's a lot to sift through! I'm just trying to make it through each work day and put food on the table!
Agreed!!! Everybody looks at their side of the equation and figure out their own need. My pocket, my convenience, my decision...
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map40
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01/22/23 05:04pm |
General RVing Issues
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RE: EV alternative for light/medium duty trucks
I am the OP. I just read through the entire thread again. You still haven't convinced me that you can replace all vehicles with electric or hydrogen, then rebuild the entire infrastructure system converting natural gas to hydrogen or building the new electric transmission lines for less money than onsite production of hydrocarbons as a refinery feedstock at renewable energy facilities.
I think with both hydrogen and EV's, the cost of fleet replacement and building the support infrastructure are vastly under estimated. My way, you pay as you go. It is invisible to the consumer.
Nobody will be able to because it is not possible with the current technology at this time in the current technology development path. EVs are great for commuting and city traffic, but they fail with heavy load and long trips (which makes them quite difficult to use towing a trailer or fifth wheel).
Hydrogen is a great technology, but the only cost effective technology is direct sea water extraction and there is no solution for distribution in place yet, so we are looking between 10 to 20 years at best.
To your original question, from a person familiar with EVs and Hydrogen technology (and a long time owner of both), neither technology can replace ICEs today for the RVs application in most cases.
Now, if you have a very light trailer and are willing to put up with the charging, there are really good EVs that could work (some postings have actually shown). Besides that, Not currently available on my point of view.
(And as I normally say, my point of view is my pocket and my convenience; I will use any technology that is cheaper to own and as convenient for me than the alternatives)
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map40
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01/22/23 04:55pm |
Tow Vehicles
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RE: EV alternative for light/medium duty trucks
You Chicken little men are too much. A Tesla semi breaks down and you want to scrap the entire program. I wonder if Kenworth had this bashing when there first truck broke down!
Funny thing is we have large wrecker companies, trucker down website and all kinds of resources dedicated to repairing over the road semi trucks.
Why?............Because they break down! They all breakdown. I don't think the Tesla Semi truck sky is falling just yet!Yeah, but how many of the Tesla semi's on the road have broken down? Percentage-wise what would that be? :)
You are not making a point, you are just showing how ridiculous this stupid discussion is. Do you want the percentage of produced trucks? Why not based on estimated lifespan?
You guys may not like the Tesla Semi, neither do I. But that does not change the fact that is made from a company that weather you like it or not brought a technology to market and became the fastest growing automotive company in history.
Nobody does that unless they do something right.
The semi has a lot of points against it, it needs a special charger, the range is limited, is an emerging technology in the segment. But I'm sure that even with that there will be applications in which it will work better than a regular semi, even if it is for just 1% of the applications that is a lot of trucks.
The point is: stop the ridiculous bashing of a unproven new vehicle. Nobody knows yet what is going to happens with it. But if they only capture 0.25% of the market they will have enough demand to produce their forecast. Last time they took this bet they took the title of the #1 luxury carmaker in USA from Mercedes and BMW COUNTING THEIR WHOLE LINEUP.
Unless you think you are smarter than Mercedes, BMW and all their customers and history wont repeat itself....
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map40
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01/21/23 01:16pm |
Tow Vehicles
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RE: EV alternative for light/medium duty trucks
It is a new product, but Tesla was never known by their quality. Or said a different way, their quality is sub-par at best, statistically speaking.
That said, there is no need to troll...
Right on!! So when FedX “absolutely, positively has to be there overnight” can I assume that they won't use a Tesla Semi? After all "Tesla was never known by their quality. Or said a different way, their quality is sub-par at best, statistically speaking." (your words not mine)
So if you had to have a pacemaker put in your chest, would you want one that is "sub-par at best"? Or do you want one that will 100% be the very best and reliable pacemaker on the market?
Unlike people that put up with their electric cars that don't work, the shipping world is MUCH less forgiving x's the 100th power.
I'm much like the shipping world. I just signed a retainer for a lawyer because my electric car maker moved my fix date out another 2 months. In two months it will be a year that my car has been in the shop. Nice hu? :S
I understand you are not happy about your car and that you have a personal problem with the Tesla semi, but I said nothing to disagree with you. Further more, kind of agreed with you. Yet again, you are giving me attitude? All in generic statements, not precise normalized data? Whether you like it or not there are several electric cars that have demonstrated above average reliability (this coming from a guy who drove a Town Car for 530K miles)
I feel bad for you and your negative experience, but as I said, there is no need to troll. And you can keep the attitude to yourself...
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map40
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01/21/23 09:59am |
Tow Vehicles
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RE: EV alternative for light/medium duty trucks
Tesla was never known by their quality.
Any one I ever looked at close, no matter the model,3, X, S, doesn't matter, had the worst job of body panel alignment I've ever seen. They need to go to a good body shop for a going over before they ever hit the road. The body panels were aligned better on 1970's Ford Mavericks and Pintos.
Agreed. Their fit and finish was awful at the beginning and it is barely acceptable now. Systems besides the electric powertrain have a track record 3 times less reliable than the industry average, and the repairs are very difficult unless in a Tesla dealership and even then they are incredible slow.
But I have a particular point of view, quite simple. If so many people are buying them, there must be something good about them. And there is; they are incredible cars. Otherwise, why would people buy so many of them?
Now that the rest of the industry is catching up they are going to be more pressed to improve (right now is the first time in which they are not behind in orders), but when you had 99% of the market 10 years ago you can only loose market share.
For the purpose of this thread, we already made the point that EVs are good for some applications. Some people can successfully use them to tow light trailers, but when you get to heavy trailers (5000# or more) the current technology is not too convenient.
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map40
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01/21/23 08:29am |
Tow Vehicles
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RE: EV alternative for light/medium duty trucks
Cr@p, now my Cheetos are going to be late!! What is going on here? Been out a month and they are already breaking down.
Musk said that the drivetrain is guaranteed to last 1 million miles and it happens to share many components with Tesla’s passenger vehicles.
Well hell. That didn't age well!!
It looks like the Tesla Semi is going to be the new Windows ME. Or perhaps the the Iphone 5C?
Oops, this is a towing forum so I will say maybe the Tesla Semi will be the newer 5.7 Olds diesel or the Ford 6.0 diesel? :B
Now come on fan bois start with the "it's a new product and there are bound to be problems." Go on.....lets hear the Tesla fans!!!
It is a new product, but Tesla was never known by their quality. Or said a different way, their quality is sub-par at best, statistically speaking.
That said, there is no need to troll...
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map40
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01/21/23 06:21am |
Tow Vehicles
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RE: EV alternative for light/medium duty trucks
“ Another factor is the integrity of the steel pipes and fittings. Depending on the quality of the steel and potential exposure to atomic hydrogen, in principle, embrittlement can accelerate propagation of cracks, reducing the pipeline’s service life by 20 to 50 percent. This is only likely, though, if the pipeline already has fractures and is subjected to dynamic stresses due to fluctuating internal pressure while at the same time being exposed to atomic hydrogen. The confluence of all three factors seems unlikely, however: Under normal operating conditions, there should be little load alternation, and only molecular hydrogen (H2).”
https://www.siemens-energy.com/global/en/news/magazine/2020/repurposing-natural-gas-infrastructure-for-hydrogen.html
Retrofit solutions for pipelines:
https://www.enbridge.com/stories/2022/may/enbridge-invests-in-smartpipe-pipeline-retrofit-enabling-co2-hydrogen-transportation
Thanks for sharing, they are quite interesting. I heard of the kits b4 but did not know they were using them
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map40
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01/20/23 05:27am |
Tow Vehicles
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RE: EV alternative for light/medium duty trucks
Not sure what NG pipelines are made of but there’s the issue of Hydrogen Embrittlement.
Per Wikipedia;
Hydrogen embrittlement (HE), also known as hydrogen-assisted cracking or hydrogen-induced cracking (HIC), is a reduction in the ductility of a metal due to absorbed hydrogen. Hydrogen atoms are small and can permeate solid metals. Once absorbed, hydrogen lowers the stress required for cracks in the metal to initiate and propagate, resulting in embrittlement. Hydrogen embrittlement occurs most notably in steels, as well as in iron, nickel, titanium, cobalt, and their alloys. Copper, aluminium, and stainless steels are less susceptible to hydrogen embrittlement.
I did not know that. Thanks!
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map40
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01/20/23 05:24am |
Tow Vehicles
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RE: Rivian R1S
After a bit more reading... Rivian seems to no longer endorse four-down towing of the vehicles. :(
Bollinger had made the same comments and then shifted out of the personal market to focus on commercial.
There are no EVs that can be towed on all four wheels that I am aware of.
Can anybody tell what the issue is that would prevent flat towing? For years, ICE cars was the transmission did not lube itself unless the input shaft was spinning. Which implied spin the engine. EVs don't have transmission, so that's no problem. No disconnect between wheel and motor? Well spinning the motor, with no power to it, does no harm, as long does not exceed speed it would normally run. (Going to tow faster than you would drive?) Steering and brakes would be no more complicated than ICE.
Most EVs have an electric clutch (or connect/ disconect) between the wheels and the transmission. They don't have many components but they have a single or in some cases a 2 speed transmission (very simple, nothing like what am ICE has)
Due to the high torque of the electric motors, the traction control systems are much more complex than ICE's and monitor wheel speeds with a much higher frequency and precision.
The same problem happens with the regenerative breaking in snowy/icy condition. It is very easy to loose traction on ice and as it is involuntary (meaning the driver does not press the brake or anything else, it is activated automatically) so the system is monitoring not only the wheel speed independently several thousand times per second, it also triangulates with GPS and accelerometers to ensure the wheels are always "in traction".
All of this said, the problem is that flat towing something that complex may create unforseen problems, so lawyers said "How many more sales are you going to get by allowing flat towing? Is it really worth the risk?" And the answer was always "No".
There is no inherent technical reason (like the transmission in an ICE), it is simply "Why risk it, we are selling every unit before its built..."
I have towed one of my leafs and one of my BMW but just to see how fast did they charge, and o boy did they complained!
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map40
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01/19/23 11:05pm |
Tow Vehicles
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RE: Rivian R1S
I drove an R1S today (factory demo). Like all EVs the acceleration was mind blowing. I believe it can do a pretty good job towing, they told me 9000# (no door sticker as it was a preproduction model), except for the already mentioned problem of range and recharge with the trailer in tow.
It is nice inside, drives really good, great suspension, excellent handling. When you floor the pedal you just can't stop smiling. You just can't describe the feeling of driving at supercar speeds with the whole family and the dogs
Now, I still believe that for most RVers it won't be a good fit. You are paying over $100k for a tow vehicle that will need to recharge every few hours. I would take a Durango or Grand Cherokee Hellcat and tow as much as I want.
But if you can accommodate the range and the price it would make a heck of a tow vehicle!
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map40
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01/19/23 10:28pm |
Tow Vehicles
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RE: Slides out or autolevelers down first?
Reccomendations from the manufacturer will vary depending on several factors, but the most important is the structural integrity of the vehicle with the slides in vs the slides out.
Some RVs (mainly the ones with a lower cost) use the slide out closed as part of the structure. In these cases you need to level first and open the slide outs afterwards because the slides need to be part of the structure. The only issue is that when you open the slideouts the weight distribution will change and the RV might stress a little on one jack or even move if you are on soft ground.
The RVs in which the slideout wall is not part of the structure (a bus chassis for example) don't need the wall of the slideout to be in to maintain structure, so it is better to level the RV with the slides out to ensure great weight distribution.
I always believed that the safest bet is always to level first and open slideout afterwards, but me driving an Alfa, when the 4 feet slideout monster comes out you absolutelly can feel the RV change position...
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map40
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01/19/23 01:25pm |
Class A Motorhomes
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RE: EV alternative for light/medium duty trucks
D
Pardon, I read your omission of hydro as serious. Norway and Sweden have ample hydro resources and Norway will be building a 100% green hydrogen pipeline to Germany. Sweden is already producing 100% green hydrogen steel at their Hybrit plant and shipping to Volvo.
Got it. No, I simply was trying to simplify the explanation, but you are right they are included.
Again, don't get me wrong, I believe hydrogen is the most promising technology to really replace fosil fuel, but I believe that we are still a few decades away. In the meantime EVs (in all their forms) will increase (where it makes sense).
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map40
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01/19/23 10:32am |
Tow Vehicles
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RE: EV alternative for light/medium duty trucks
D
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map40
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01/19/23 09:22am |
Tow Vehicles
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