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Topic: Ford 460 engine questions/issues
Posted By: TheWanderer on 06/04/19 09:22am

Hey everyone, new to the forums and new to RV ownership. (Owned about 2 months now).
Firstly, HI! nice to join a community of like minded travelers!

I own a 26 foot 1988 ford gulfstream rv.

Ok so I am doing a fairly major overhaul on the Ford E350 v8 460 block engine. It has had a handful of things replaced already (starter, map sensor, pcv valve and tubing, spark plugs, etc etc.) and now I am working on lifting the engine to access the oil pump and crankshaft bearings. I just had a couple things I have run into I am unsure on.
Firstly, does anyone who has done work on this engine have any further tips for oil pan removal?? I have never had to go through so much just to get the dang oil pan off on a vehicle! The frame is 1 inch below the 7 inch deep oil pan. So in order to get the pan off and around the oil pump and crank and such, I have to lift the motor at least 5-6 inches. That meant removing a LOT including the throttle body, which leads me to my second question.
I cannot seem for the life of me to find a matching replacement for my bottom gasket for the throttle body, where it mounts to the engine. I will try and link a photo of it to show what mine looks like, but i cannot seem to find a replacement anywhere! It flaked some upon removal of the throttle body.
[image]

Thanks in advance for any advice or help!! I am quickly learning a LOT about this engine and RV with all the work i am doing. (I was basically scammed in purchasing a used RV. Tip for others/the future, GET SOMEONE TO INSPECT IT FIRST!)

Hope y'all have a great day, happy trails!

* This post was last edited 06/04/19 09:52am by TheWanderer *

Posted By: wnjj on 06/04/19 09:50am

Welcome to the forum. Please reduce the size of your picture so people can read your text and the replies. Edit: I see you reduced it some. A little more please. [emoticon]

Here is the gasket you’re looking for. It’s called an intake plenum gasket.

https://www.rockauto.com/en/catalog/ford........117066,engine,intake+plenum+gasket,10394

Posted By: TheWanderer on 06/04/19 09:55am

Thank you!!! I was just using the wrong term! Haha one more item off the list!
Also, I reduced the photo size, hopefully that is small enough. [emoticon]
Much appreciated!

Posted By: wnjj on 06/04/19 09:58am

TheWanderer wrote:

Thank you!!! I was just using the wrong term! Haha one more item off the list!
Also, I reduced the photo size, hopefully that is small enough. [emoticon]
Much appreciated!

Looks great now. You’re welcome and good luck with the rest.

If you don’t already use them, RockAuto is a fantastic place to buy parts.

Posted By: TheWanderer on 06/04/19 10:04am

wnjj wrote:

TheWanderer wrote:

Thank you!!! I was just using the wrong term! Haha one more item off the list!
Also, I reduced the photo size, hopefully that is small enough. [emoticon]
Much appreciated!

Looks great now. You’re welcome and good luck with the rest.

If you don’t already use them, RockAuto is a fantastic place to buy parts.


Agreed! I get virtually everything from either RockAuto, or Advanced Auto Parts with a 25% off online order coupon.

Posted By: Big Katuna on 06/04/19 10:15am

Summit Racing has lots of 460 parts. That mill is used in racing.

I used copper exhaust gaskets from them.

I converted to studs.

My Kharma ran over my Dogma.

Posted By: RLS7201 on 06/04/19 10:36am

One of the methods used to get the pan off of those rear sump fords is to drop the pan as far as possible and drop the oil pump. The tough part is removing the main bolt that holds the pick up tube.

Richard

95 Bounder 32H F53 460
2013 CRV Toad
2 Segways in Toad
First brake job
1941 Hudson


Posted By: midnightsadie on 06/04/19 01:00pm

bite the bullet,, just pull the engine then you can do the hole thing,standing up. bench test ,then you,ll know its good.

Posted By: TheWanderer on 06/04/19 01:54pm

Yeah if I can't get good enough access to get the oil pan off and do the work, I will definitely bite the bullet and pull the engine. I already have a stand and hoist rental lined up if need be.
I did have another question though I forgot to ask earlier. There is a ruber line I need to replace that runs from the purge valve solenoid in the PCV system down to these components that look almost like batteries?? (PCV runs to purge valve solonoid then splits to 2 lines, one runs to the intake I believe, one to these boxes through a hard line) Anyone happen to know what these components are for? Possibly part of the EGR system? I suppose I could dig through my electronic ford factory manuals and possibly find out, but if someone knows it would be much easier.
I am by no means an expert mechanic but I have a fair amount of knowledge and experience. Still learning. [emoticon]
Here is a photo of the boxes I refered to.
[image]

Thanks again everyone!! [emoticon]

Posted By: opnspaces on 06/04/19 02:36pm

From your description and the picture those are fuel vapor canisters. The are attached via the vent line to the fuel tank and the purge solenoid.

When the vehicle sits especially in the sun the fuel in the fuel tank heats and emits vapor. The excess pressure in the tank and the associated hydrocarbon (unburned fuel, a major ingredient in smog) vapor pass through the canister on the way to vent to the atmosphere. Inside the canister is an activated charcoal that absorbs the hydrocarbon out of the vapor so the hydrocarbons do not escape.

Now when you start the vehicle the purge valve opens for a set amount of time and pulls fresh air through the canister and into the engine. As the fresh air is traveling through the canister is strips the hydrocarbons out of the charcoal and into the engine to be burned.

2001 Suburban 4x4. 6.0L, 4.10 3/4 ton
2005 Jayco Jay Flight 27BH
1986 Coleman Columbia Popup.

Posted By: TheWanderer on 06/04/19 04:25pm

Oh wow what a complete answer. [emoticon]
Thank you very much! I thought it might have been something along those lines. Will definitely be replacing tbe connecting hose. [emoticon]

Posted By: ajriding on 06/05/19 06:28pm

I had a 1995 460. It is a big engine!!!

You should check on Ford Econoline forums instead of a camper forum. They are the same as a van. The engine is the same wether on a passenger van or a camper or a moving van.
Yours would be considered a "cutaway van" since it would have come from Ford with the back 75% of the body "cut away" or cut off.

The Ford forums will have almost exclusively readers who are working on their van. RV.net is an RV site and full of people who can tell you how you need to take it to a mechanic because you do not already know the answers you are looking for (funny). You will get answers that you need here, but there will be 100 times more answers on a van repair forum.

I would just post here for things more related to there being a camper on that van chassis.

There probably are a few modifications Ford made for the cutaway vans like more heavy-duty this or that which most passenger vans will not have, so in that case RV sites can be useful too. My cutaway had a bigger oil pan if I remember correctly, and dually axle in the rear, but the rest was just a van.

Posted By: T18skyguy on 06/05/19 10:54pm

The forum you want is Ford-trucks.com It has an engine section devoted to all the different types. There's a lot of people in there that know their engines. You want to click on forums, then to performance engine troubleshooting, then click on 460.

Retired Anesthetist. LTP. Pilot with mechanic/inspection ratings. Between rigs right now.. Wife and daughter. Four cats which we must obey.

Posted By: TheWanderer on 07/06/19 10:38am

Hey everyone!

Been a little while but I am still chipping away after work. Finally got the transmission off, engine raised all the way up, oil pan removed, oil pump and Screen removed, and getting close to starting to remove the crank and mic it and replace bearings (I am now doing both rod and main bearings, might as well.)
Ran into a little snag though... the dipstick tube for the oil pan sheared off about 2" away from the pan in the process of raising and removing the oil pan.
It is the screw in style dipstick, and measures about 35 inch or so in length. I cannot seem to find this anywhere online. Looked on RockAuto, Advanced Auto, Amazon, Etc.
There is some flexible screw in style dipsticks that are only 18 in in length for nearly $50, but I am not sure how I would even make those work for this purpose.
Anyone happen to know where I can find a replacement dipstick tube?

Posted By: TheWanderer on 07/06/19 10:39am

Or, does anyone happen to know a reliable way to repair a cleanly sheared off oil dipstick tube? I thought about J-B Weld, but not too sure about that.

Posted By: JRscooby on 07/06/19 11:17am

For the dipstick tube, I have just welded them back together. One truck I bought somebody had split a piece of copper and formed a tight sleeve then soldered it in place...

Posted By: TheWanderer on 07/06/19 07:10pm

Ok so pretty big update. Got the crankshaft out!
The bearings look ROUGH for "47k miles"...
Wondering if it was rolled over. Also it seems the wear isnt very even? Is that common? The crankshaft looks in good shape but I wont know until I get the correct micrometer in the mail. The bearings are lined up back-to-front as top-to-bottom in the photos.
I ordered materials to do a more-or-less proffessional polish job on the crank but now I am unsure after seeing the wear on the bearings if I may HAVE to have it machined.
I am also a bit concerned about some discoloration under the pistons ahere3 the rods connect.
I am just going to throw some photos I got up, and ig anyone feels like giving me some observations I would appreciate it! This is my first time doing work of this level. Thanks in advance!!

Posted By: TheWanderer on 07/06/19 07:13pm

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[image]

Posted By: TheWanderer on 07/06/19 07:14pm

[image]

[image]

Posted By: MEXICOWANDERER on 07/06/19 07:50pm

Ford reman long block engines are excellent. Act like a brand new engine.

Posted By: RLS7201 on 07/06/19 08:24pm

That engine has experienced a high degree of oil failure. I'm not saying any thing about brands, just that the delivery system has failed for some reason or other. I took my 95 class A 460 down at 140,000 miles and the bottom end was still good. All bearings had plenty of babbitt on them. I took my engine down to add a stroker crank. Do NOT install a high pressure or high volume oil pump. You'll only be adding load to the cam gear and the distributor. A standard millings pump is all you need. For some really great 460 guidance, go to https://www.460ford.com/forum/37-engine-tech/
Also, while on the 460ford site, inquire about rear main seal crush. You don't want to drop that pan again!

Richard

Posted By: TheWanderer on 07/06/19 09:01pm

Thanks! Yeah I did see the info on the rear seal crush, definitely going to have to research the specs for that.
I already ordered the high volume pump a while back, but you think that could cause issues? It looks exactly like the one that i took out.
I am not looking to have everything 100% perfect for this engine (nor do I have the time/money to do a full overhaul), just good enough to run for a couple years or so (fingers crossed)
Right now the plan is Oil pump, oil pan and gasket, main bearings, rod bearings, ensure the crank is in good order, timing chain, starter, gaskets and seals, and of course full fluids change in the process ( with Lucas additive for both the oil and transmission fluid.)

Also already changed the map sensor, pcv valve, purge valve solenoid, all spark plugs, and checked/replaced all the hoses.

Posted By: Big Katuna on 07/06/19 09:09pm

MEXICOWANDERER wrote:

Ford reman long block engines are excellent. Act like a brand new engine.


That’s what I was thinking. The learning curve on engine rebuilds is painful.

Posted By: RLS7201 on 07/07/19 11:17am

TheWanderer wrote:


I already ordered the high volume pump a while back, but you think that could cause issues? It looks exactly like the one that i took out.


If you intend to use that HV pump, double pin the distributor gear to the shaft. Or install a larger pin. It will shear with added load.
Go to the site I suggested and listen to the professional engine builders.

Richard

Posted By: MEXICOWANDERER on 07/07/19 12:01pm

In my early mechanical years, I painfully learned I did not know and it was too costly to learn the hard way about how to rebuild an engine so as to mimic exactly the performance and longevity of a new car engine. So did 90% of the rebuilt engines I bought. They leaked and burned oil. High volume oil pumps are a farce. I learned for racing only a high volume HIGH-PRESSURE oil pump does a damned thing different than a standard oil pump. The camshaft grinds provided less power on more gasoline. I purchased a fuel saver grind of CRANE cam which provided far less power on the same MPG. All the misfit engines burned far more oil and delivered far fewer horsepower.
I was introduced to factory OEM replacement transmissions. GM Mr. Goodwrench trannys came with improved valve bodies with far less porosity that caused longevity issues. Double hardened gearsets and redesigned reaction shafts for the torque converter. You'll get this is a standard shop rebuilt tranny? Keep dreaming.

Factory rebuilt alternators impressed me and that ain't something trivial. I re-tested rectifiers to MY standards and never found a bad one. They resued only original rotors and stators. Raised my eyebrows.

But to simply slap bearings and rings into an engine is a recipe for disappointment. The extra fuel and oil to be consumed make this choice a real loser in my book.

Posted By: TheWanderer on 07/09/19 11:05am

Okay,
I have decided to order a remanufactured crankshaft that I found on RockAuto for a good price. It even comes with the proper oversized bearings for both the mains and the rods. I have a question regarding the item before I order it though.
The listing says it does not include the rear oil slinger.
Not entirely sure what that means?
Based on the photos for the listing, the rear connection for the drive shaft does look built somewhat differently, but the same bolt layout.
I will post some photos for reference, but my question is:
A: does the difference in design at the back end pose a problem, or is this common for reman cranks?
B: do I need to find a way to install a oil Slinger somehow on the remanufactured crank?
Thanks in advance!

Posted By: TheWanderer on 07/09/19 11:08am

http://imgur.com/a/1Ag0aIU

[image]

[image]

Sorry for the link for the first photo, it is a png so it will not upload here. :/

Posted By: TheWanderer on 07/09/19 12:09pm

I feel like there isnt an oil slinger on my original crank?
Also I cannot seem to even find another crank with the narrower flywheel mounting plate, they all seem to be the same as the one I just placed on order.
Fingers crossed it will work as described.
At least I will be sure the bearings and crank relation will be as it should be!

Posted By: Bird Freak on 07/09/19 07:37pm

I agree. I would Ford long block it. Motor has had some trash to get the bearings like that. Hate to think what the cam bearings and cam look like. By the time you tear it down and vat the block, polish or turn crank and clean it all back up your better off with a long block with a Ford warranty good nation wide.

Eddie
03 Fleetwood Pride, 36-5L
04 Ford F-250 Superduty
15K Pullrite Superglide
Old coach 04 Pace Arrow 37C with brakes sometimes.
Owner- The Toy Shop-
Auto Restoration and Customs 32 years. Retired by a stroke!
We love 56 T-Birds

Posted By: TheWanderer on 07/10/19 04:33pm

I really don't have $3k to drop on an entire new motor.

Posted By: 77rollalong on 07/10/19 05:11pm

see what the cost is on a long block, then just add you intake, oil pan, valve covers etc.

Posted By: MEXICOWANDERER on 07/10/19 08:19pm

You'll spend 1K for excessive burned oil, another X dollars to replace oil-fouled spark plugs and god only knows how much in wasted gasoline.

Camshafts go flat rung lands become tapered instead of exactly angled channels..

Just don't expect miracles. You'll get a patch job

Posted By: TheWanderer on 07/13/19 03:17pm

Oh for sure, I am DEFINITELY not expecting this to get the engine to run like new. Haha more to hopefully just give me a couple mpg bump from the 4mpg I was getting, and give it back a lot of its power and oil pressure. Still will likely need to look at replacing the camshaft down the road at some point among other things, but I dont have to lift the motor for that like I do all this, so it could be more easily attained while traveling and after working to re-imbursing myself for the cost I am already into it. (This RV is my home currently and is working up to be a cross country rig for a couple years or so, just wasnt expecting THIS major of work.)
The transmission still shifts and such super smooth, no problems at all there and its getting full fluid change from being removed and drain bolt removed, so I am not too worried about that.
In the end I will basically give it a full rebuild, but can't all at once out of necessity from a time/budget stance.
This will rebuild basically the entire lower end of the engine at least and between new oil pump, starter, timing chain, crankshaft, bearings, and a handfull of sensors as well as all 8 spark plugs, finished with a full fluids change including lucas additives I feel like I will see a pretty substantial Improvement to the terrible performance it had beforehand.
It has also given me an opportunity to really inspect most of the rest of the components pretty well, and gives me much more confidence and all of my vacuum lines and hoses and such.
I am really on the edge of my seat to see what kind of improvement in performance and oil pressure I will see from this first major work set.
I appreciate any input or advice in this journey, and thank you for the understanding in my budget / time limitations. [emoticon]

Posted By: mountainkowboy on 07/13/19 05:18pm

We haven't decided on if we will keep Red, our 1990 F350 460/ZF-5 truck, and if we do I will have a 460 built by Parkland for it. It will cost 6K but will have well over 500lbs of tq, get the same mpg as I get now, and use the existing factory EFI. I would LOVE my truck with 150 more pounds of torque...it isn't a slouch now!

Chuck & Ruth with 4-legged Molly
2007 Tiffin Allegro 30DA
2011 Ford Ranger
1987 HD FLHTP


Posted By: RLS7201 on 07/19/19 08:58pm

Wanderer, I find it amazing that those that don't have the talent to repair an engine properly, just assume you are also less talented and will screw up the job.
We both know full well that some of us have the talent to make successful repairs in spite of them.
Go for it! Let us know what a good job you did.

If you really want to have some fun, I'll show ya how to make a hard pulling stroker engine out of that ol 460.

Richard

Posted By: MEXICOWANDERER on 07/19/19 09:19pm

If someone were really really talented, they'd guarantee the monster they built would increase horsepower, decrease fuel consumption

A N D

Pass state emission control standards

To get a current license plate.

[emoticon]

Posted By: RLS7201 on 07/20/19 10:09am

MEXICOWANDERER wrote:

If someone were really really talented, they'd guarantee the monster they built would increase horsepower, decrease fuel consumption

A N D

Pass state emission control standards

To get a current license plate.

[emoticon]


Well I got two of the 3 right. My fuel mileage stayed the same.

Richard

Posted By: mountainkowboy on 07/21/19 05:23pm

MEXICOWANDERER wrote:

If someone were really really talented, they'd guarantee the monster they built would increase horsepower, decrease fuel consumption

A N D

Pass state emission control standards

To get a current license plate.

[emoticon]


Don's have to worry about emission in rural Oregon, but the Parkland engine will pass.

Posted By: mountainkowboy on 07/21/19 05:25pm

RLS7201 wrote:

Wanderer, I find it amazing that those that don't have the talent to repair an engine properly, just assume you are also less talented and will screw up the job.
We both know full well that some of us have the talent to make successful repairs in spite of them.
Go for it! Let us know what a good job you did.

If you really want to have some fun, I'll show ya how to make a hard pulling stroker engine out of that ol 460.

Richard


I have no problem wrenching on anything....but I can't "down" Red for very long since it's my DD and I can order one and just swap it out over the weekend.

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