Some parks we have been in, I have seen voltage at @ 102 to 104 with my a/c on.
I would be using a PI 3o amp surge protector in front of a hughes autoformer then the rv cord.
I just wondered if anyone has gotten in trouble for using their autoformer ?
2014 F 150 ecoboost
2008 Chrysler Aspen
09 Amerilite 21 (modified)
2013 Bendron 14' enclosed cargo
2011 4x8 open cargo
samsontdog">">
Boosting 100 volts to 120 volts, with wattage remaining fixed (same load), means your transformer will drawing more amps over an already overloaded distribution system to make up the volts.
I can see a park with a sub-standard system being upset about blowing a main transformer or damaging lines if everyone were running their own transformer.
It will make the problem worse for others on the system that don't have their own transformer. Your transformer will only cause the voltage to drop even lower for others.
Given today's society, the me-first thinking that's popular, lowering someone else's voltage is not my problem, others can buy a transformer too of course.
Report this park to the County building inspector, and the state building inspector. Low voltage is a safety issue.
2013 KZ Sportsmen Classic 200, 20 ft TT
2020 RAM 1500, 5.7 4x4, 8 speed
IF surge protector is first in line then it will continue to cut power on low voltages before autoformer can boost it
Otherwise WHY have the autoformer?
And YES.......
During our travels have been in some CGs that did not allow the use of an autoformer.
Their place....their rules
Is it time for your medication or mine?
2007 DODGE 3500 QC SRW 5.9L CTD In-Bed 'quiet gen'
2007 HitchHiker II 32.5 UKTG 2000W Xantex Inverter
US NAVY------USS Decatur DDG31
Winnebago 2101DS TT & 2022 Chevy Silverado 1500 LTZ Z71, WindyNation 300 watt solar-Lossigy 200 AH Lithium battery. Prefer boondocking, USFS, COE, BLM, NPS, TVA, state camps. Bicyclist. 14 yr. Army -11B40 then 11A - (MOS 1542 & 1560) IOBC & IOAC grad
So my surge protector won't be correcting before the hughes, just protecting it.
This deal just showed up for a good condition Hughes 30 amp for $120.
Possibly too good to pass up. I can still buy the good PI ems later and put it inline after the Hughes as you suggest.
I would just be boosting the voltage at parks with borderline power.
I don't want to have to replace my a/c and electronics. Living in south FL, camping in summer is a must, everything is full up in winter. **** sure, every rig in the park will be running it's a/c at or near it's capacity.
dockmasterdave wrote:
I am looking at a used hughes autoformer.
I am looking at a used hughes autoformer.
Just make sure that as a used unit it does work properly. I once bought a TRC version online from a private party but as soon as it arrived and I got it on my workbench it was instantly obvious it was blown. The seller claimed to be totally surprised but I got lucky as he rebated my purchase price once he saw pics of the inside of the unit.
You can avoid reality, but you cannot avoid the consequences of avoiding reality – Ayn Rand
David & Teresa
2017 Cedar Creek Silverback 37 MBH
2017 Silverado 3500HD Duramax 4X4 Crewcab longbed dully
Never a hassle or trouble... out of sight, out of mind.
2001 F150 SuperCrew
2006 Keystone Springdale 249FWBHLS
675w Solar pictures back up
GordonThree wrote:
Report this park to the County building inspector, and the state building inspector. Low voltage is a safety issue.
Report this park to the County building inspector, and the state building inspector. Low voltage is a safety issue.
Absolutely.....did so in 2008, and twice since as recent as last season. System has not been touched. State Park. Reporting works well. Turns out the issue is not the park wiring, but the main coming in from the local co-op. That has not been touched either and apparently will be done when he'll freezes over.
I'm using my autoformer. It's all about me. Or maybe since all sites are 30 amp, it's about all the large 50 amp RVs using dogbones. On the 30 amp pedestals
GordonThree wrote:
AC current is neat, you can trade voltage for current and vice versa, using simple magnetic coils.
Boosting 100 volts to 120 volts, with wattage remaining fixed (same load), means your transformer will drawing more amps over an already overloaded distribution system to make up the volts.
I can see a park with a sub-standard system being upset about blowing a main transformer or damaging lines if everyone were running their own transformer.
It will make the problem worse for others on the system that don't have their own transformer. Your transformer will only cause the voltage to drop even lower for others.
Given today's society, the me-first thinking that's popular, lowering someone else's voltage is not my problem, others can buy a transformer too of course.
Report this park to the County building inspector, and the state building inspector. Low voltage is a safety issue.
AC current is neat, you can trade voltage for current and vice versa, using simple magnetic coils.
Boosting 100 volts to 120 volts, with wattage remaining fixed (same load), means your transformer will drawing more amps over an already overloaded distribution system to make up the volts.
I can see a park with a sub-standard system being upset about blowing a main transformer or damaging lines if everyone were running their own transformer.
It will make the problem worse for others on the system that don't have their own transformer. Your transformer will only cause the voltage to drop even lower for others.
Given today's society, the me-first thinking that's popular, lowering someone else's voltage is not my problem, others can buy a transformer too of course.
Report this park to the County building inspector, and the state building inspector. Low voltage is a safety issue.
Right on the mark.
An autoformer is not ever going to cause problems for the USER. It only creates more of a low voltage issue for others.
ScottG wrote:
Right on the mark.
An autoformer is not ever going to cause problems for the USER. It only creates more of a low voltage issue for others.
GordonThree wrote:
AC current is neat, you can trade voltage for current and vice versa, using simple magnetic coils.
Boosting 100 volts to 120 volts, with wattage remaining fixed (same load), means your transformer will drawing more amps over an already overloaded distribution system to make up the volts.
I can see a park with a sub-standard system being upset about blowing a main transformer or damaging lines if everyone were running their own transformer.
It will make the problem worse for others on the system that don't have their own transformer. Your transformer will only cause the voltage to drop even lower for others.
Given today's society, the me-first thinking that's popular, lowering someone else's voltage is not my problem, others can buy a transformer too of course.
Report this park to the County building inspector, and the state building inspector. Low voltage is a safety issue.
AC current is neat, you can trade voltage for current and vice versa, using simple magnetic coils.
Boosting 100 volts to 120 volts, with wattage remaining fixed (same load), means your transformer will drawing more amps over an already overloaded distribution system to make up the volts.
I can see a park with a sub-standard system being upset about blowing a main transformer or damaging lines if everyone were running their own transformer.
It will make the problem worse for others on the system that don't have their own transformer. Your transformer will only cause the voltage to drop even lower for others.
Given today's society, the me-first thinking that's popular, lowering someone else's voltage is not my problem, others can buy a transformer too of course.
Report this park to the County building inspector, and the state building inspector. Low voltage is a safety issue.
Right on the mark.
An autoformer is not ever going to cause problems for the USER. It only creates more of a low voltage issue for others.
This nonsense will go on forever and there is no use trying to debate it. It is incorrect. If my AC and other appliances are laboring with high amperage and low voltage, which is both damaging and efficient, would it make you feel better when all of us ruin our possessions?
GordonThree wrote:
AC current is neat, you can trade voltage for current and vice versa, using simple magnetic coils.
Boosting 100 volts to 120 volts, with wattage remaining fixed (same load), means your transformer will drawing more amps over an already overloaded distribution system to make up the volts.
AC current is neat, you can trade voltage for current and vice versa, using simple magnetic coils.
Boosting 100 volts to 120 volts, with wattage remaining fixed (same load), means your transformer will drawing more amps over an already overloaded distribution system to make up the volts.
ScottG wrote:
Right on the mark.
An autoformer is not ever going to cause problems for the USER. It only creates more of a low voltage issue for others.
Right on the mark.
An autoformer is not ever going to cause problems for the USER. It only creates more of a low voltage issue for others.
Lynnmor wrote:
This nonsense will go on forever and there is no use trying to debate it. It is incorrect.
This nonsense will go on forever and there is no use trying to debate it. It is incorrect.
Yeah, it's incorrect but you're right - this misconception will continue to be propagated ad nauseam.
![[emoticon]](http://www.coastresorts.com/sharedcontent/cfb/images/rolleyes.gif "rolleyes")
From the Hughes Website - How Does It Work? ... of course one can discount all this, claiming the manufacturer is simply making it all up.
![[emoticon]](http://www.coastresorts.com/sharedcontent/cfb/images/doh.gif "doh")
Next RV I might opt for a Tripp-Lite 2400 line conditioner for just the air conditioner circuit.
The Autoformer DOES NOT take power from the park.
It does not affect the park or input voltage, or make electricity.
What it is doing is changing the voltage – amperage relationship, lowering the amperage and raising the voltage. Since appliances run better on higher voltage, lower amperage, less overall power is used from the park, and better service is enjoyed from your RV
I don't claim to be an expert but is this not true ?
dockmasterdave wrote:
I don't claim to be an expert but is this not true ?
I don't claim to be an expert but is this not true ?
Put your common sense hat on ... what do you think?
![[emoticon]](http://www.coastresorts.com/sharedcontent/cfb/images/tongue.gif "tongue")
I "Installed" it
IN the compartment where Damon hid my Transfer switch was enough room so I pulled the SHORE wires from the switch and repalced with a short (in my case) 50 amp pigtail.. this plugs into the autoformer at this time. More plans later
Then I plug the autoformer into an outlet that "Replaced" the transfer switch on teh shore line.. Outta Sight.. OUtta mind. Management never sees it, in fact neither do I unless I specifically look.
Future plan is to add a PI HW-50c post-autoformer.. For obvious reasons.
But so far my voltmeters have been... Nice.
Home was where I park it. but alas the.
2005 Damon Intruder 377 Alas declared a total loss
after a semi "nicked" it. Still have the radios
Kenwood TS-2000, ICOM ID-5100, ID-51A+2, ID-880 REF030C most times
dockmasterdave wrote:
From the Hughes website:
The Autoformer DOES NOT take power from the park.
It does not affect the park or input voltage, or make electricity.
What it is doing is changing the voltage – amperage relationship, lowering the amperage and raising the voltage. Since appliances run better on higher voltage, lower amperage, less overall power is used from the park, and better service is enjoyed from your RV
I don't claim to be an expert but is this not true ?
I read once the boosters take 50 to 100 watts for the conversion.From the Hughes website:
The Autoformer DOES NOT take power from the park.
It does not affect the park or input voltage, or make electricity.
What it is doing is changing the voltage – amperage relationship, lowering the amperage and raising the voltage. Since appliances run better on higher voltage, lower amperage, less overall power is used from the park, and better service is enjoyed from your RV
I don't claim to be an expert but is this not true ?
Put the fridge and water on propane and you will draw less power with the booster.
Lynnmor wrote:
This nonsense will go on forever and there is no use trying to debate it. It is incorrect. If my AC and other appliances are laboring with high amperage and low voltage, which is both damaging and efficient, would it make you feel better when all of us ruin our possessions?
ScottG wrote:
Right on the mark.
An autoformer is not ever going to cause problems for the USER. It only creates more of a low voltage issue for others.
GordonThree wrote:
AC current is neat, you can trade voltage for current and vice versa, using simple magnetic coils.
Boosting 100 volts to 120 volts, with wattage remaining fixed (same load), means your transformer will drawing more amps over an already overloaded distribution system to make up the volts.
I can see a park with a sub-standard system being upset about blowing a main transformer or damaging lines if everyone were running their own transformer.
It will make the problem worse for others on the system that don't have their own transformer. Your transformer will only cause the voltage to drop even lower for others.
Given today's society, the me-first thinking that's popular, lowering someone else's voltage is not my problem, others can buy a transformer too of course.
Report this park to the County building inspector, and the state building inspector. Low voltage is a safety issue.
AC current is neat, you can trade voltage for current and vice versa, using simple magnetic coils.
Boosting 100 volts to 120 volts, with wattage remaining fixed (same load), means your transformer will drawing more amps over an already overloaded distribution system to make up the volts.
I can see a park with a sub-standard system being upset about blowing a main transformer or damaging lines if everyone were running their own transformer.
It will make the problem worse for others on the system that don't have their own transformer. Your transformer will only cause the voltage to drop even lower for others.
Given today's society, the me-first thinking that's popular, lowering someone else's voltage is not my problem, others can buy a transformer too of course.
Report this park to the County building inspector, and the state building inspector. Low voltage is a safety issue.
Right on the mark.
An autoformer is not ever going to cause problems for the USER. It only creates more of a low voltage issue for others.
This nonsense will go on forever and there is no use trying to debate it. It is incorrect. If my AC and other appliances are laboring with high amperage and low voltage, which is both damaging and efficient, would it make you feel better when all of us ruin our possessions?
You clearly do not understand how an autoformer works.
To make voltage higher, it pulls more current - period, end of sentence.
If and it's a big "if", the AC or something else then uses less current, it doesn't mean the autoformer isn't still drawing more NET current. The more loads you turn on, like AC, the more current the autoformer uses just to make it's conversion.
People get hung up on OHM's law. They think just because voltage goes up current goes down. This is not always true. A resistive load will cause the current to go UP when voltage is increased. There are many exceptions.
BTW, Autoformer the company did not invent these. Common autoformers have been around for 100+ years and this company's claims just aren't accurate.
* This post was last edited 04/15/18 07:10pm by ScottG *
ScottG wrote:
You clearly do not understand how an autoformer works.
To make voltage higher, it pulls more current - period, end of sentence.
You clearly do not understand how an autoformer works.
To make voltage higher, it pulls more current - period, end of sentence.
Against my better judgement, I'll add another comment to this useless debate:
If a device has the ability to "pull more current" wouldn't it pull it all the way back to the power plant? Total nonsense.
Lynnmor wrote:
Against my better judgement, I'll add another comment to this useless debate:
If a device has the ability to "pull more current" wouldn't it pull it all the way back to the power plant? Total nonsense.
ScottG wrote:
You clearly do not understand how an autoformer works.
To make voltage higher, it pulls more current - period, end of sentence.
You clearly do not understand how an autoformer works.
To make voltage higher, it pulls more current - period, end of sentence.
Against my better judgement, I'll add another comment to this useless debate:
If a device has the ability to "pull more current" wouldn't it pull it all the way back to the power plant? Total nonsense.
Well of course it does. That also means everything along the way is working harder. When it comes to a CG's transformer that maybe at its limits already, something has to give.
You'd do well to lose the insulting attitude when you don't understand something. Communicating in an respectful way is a great way to learn something.
SoundGuy wrote:
Put your common sense hat on ... what do you think?
dockmasterdave wrote:
I don't claim to be an expert but is this not true ?
I don't claim to be an expert but is this not true ?
Put your common sense hat on ... what do you think?
Hat on. I’d say yes. No magic box is going to pull more than the rated amperage through the breaker. It’s just trading amps for volts.
Larry
GordonThree wrote:
higher voltage, lower amperage, IS TRUE for devices downstream of the product. but that higher voltage does not come for free, out of thin air. where does it come from?
higher voltage, lower amperage, IS TRUE for devices downstream of the product. but that higher voltage does not come for free, out of thin air. where does it come from?
It comes from a transformer that trades amps for volts. The wattage remains constant.
Lynnmor wrote:
Against my better judgement, I'll add another comment to this useless debate:
If a device has the ability to "pull more current" wouldn't it pull it all the way back to the power plant? Total nonsense.
ScottG wrote:
You clearly do not understand how an autoformer works.
To make voltage higher, it pulls more current - period, end of sentence.
You clearly do not understand how an autoformer works.
To make voltage higher, it pulls more current - period, end of sentence.
Against my better judgement, I'll add another comment to this useless debate:
If a device has the ability to "pull more current" wouldn't it pull it all the way back to the power plant? Total nonsense.
X2!
ljr wrote:
It comes from a transformer that trades amps for volts. The wattage remains constant.
GordonThree wrote:
higher voltage, lower amperage, IS TRUE for devices downstream of the product. but that higher voltage does not come for free, out of thin air. where does it come from?
higher voltage, lower amperage, IS TRUE for devices downstream of the product. but that higher voltage does not come for free, out of thin air. where does it come from?
It comes from a transformer that trades amps for volts. The wattage remains constant.
That is NOT always true and the trade is not 100% efficient so the wattage does not remain constant.
Take something simple like a space heater. If you lower the voltage, the current goes DOWN. Raise the V and Current goes UP.
Like I wrote, people get hung up on OHM's law and don't understand the external effects.
ScottG wrote:
That is NOT always true and the trade is not 100% efficient so the wattage does not remain constant.
Take something simple like a space heater. If you raise lower the voltage, the current goes DOWN. Raise the V and Current goes UP.
Like I wrote, people get hung up on OHM's law and don't understand the external effects.
ljr wrote:
It comes from a transformer that trades amps for volts. The wattage remains constant.
GordonThree wrote:
higher voltage, lower amperage, IS TRUE for devices downstream of the product. but that higher voltage does not come for free, out of thin air. where does it come from?
higher voltage, lower amperage, IS TRUE for devices downstream of the product. but that higher voltage does not come for free, out of thin air. where does it come from?
It comes from a transformer that trades amps for volts. The wattage remains constant.
That is NOT always true and the trade is not 100% efficient so the wattage does not remain constant.
Take something simple like a space heater. If you raise lower the voltage, the current goes DOWN. Raise the V and Current goes UP.
Like I wrote, people get hung up on OHM's law and don't understand the external effects.
Wow!
Lets use a 30 amp circuit operating properly
P= I x E 3600 =30 x 120
However under low voltage conditions
there is only 100 volts instead of 120
P= I x E or 30 x 100 =3000
the autoformer takes that same 3000 watts
and keeps the voltage consistent but the available current drops
3000 = 25 x 120 .(note current dropped from 30 amps to 25 amps).
Power is still 3000 watts
Now there are some heat losses and losses do to impedance. But over all that is the fundamental function of the autoformer.
It ensures adequate voltage, however in the process less current is available.
On a 50 amp circuit we don't necessarily need the full 6000 watts.
50 amps x 120 volts=6000 watts
So if the current drops a bit it doesn't matter as long as adequate voltage is maintained.
19'Duramax w/hips,12'Open Range,Titan Disc Brake
BD3,RV safepower,22" Blackstone
Ox Bedsaver,RV760 w/BC20,Glow Steps, Enduraplas25,Pedego
BakFlip,RVLock,5500 Onan LP,Prog.50A surge,Hughes autoformer
Porta Bote 8.0 Nissan,Sailun S637
Correct Trax,Splendide
Lantley wrote:
P=I*E Power = current x volts
Lets use a 30 amp circuit operating properly
P= I x E 3600 =30 x 120
However under low voltage conditions
there is only 100 volts instead of 120
P= I x E or 30 x 100 =3000
the autoformer takes that same 3000 watts
and keeps the voltage consistent but the available current drops
3000 = 25 x 120 .(note current dropped from 30 amps to 25 amps).
Power is still 3000 watts
Now there are some heat losses and losses do to impedance. But over all that is the fundamental function of the autoformer.
It ensures adequate voltage, however in the process less current is available.
On a 50 amp circuit we don't necessarily need the full 6000 watts.
50 amps x 120 volts=6000 watts
So if the current drops a bit it doesn't matter as long as adequate voltage is maintained.
P=I*E Power = current x volts
Lets use a 30 amp circuit operating properly
P= I x E 3600 =30 x 120
However under low voltage conditions
there is only 100 volts instead of 120
P= I x E or 30 x 100 =3000
the autoformer takes that same 3000 watts
and keeps the voltage consistent but the available current drops
3000 = 25 x 120 .(note current dropped from 30 amps to 25 amps).
Power is still 3000 watts
Now there are some heat losses and losses do to impedance. But over all that is the fundamental function of the autoformer.
It ensures adequate voltage, however in the process less current is available.
On a 50 amp circuit we don't necessarily need the full 6000 watts.
50 amps x 120 volts=6000 watts
So if the current drops a bit it doesn't matter as long as adequate voltage is maintained.
What??
The voltage stays consistent through the autoformer?
Maybe you meant wattage? You'd still be wrong.
Some heat losses due to impedance?
Impedance has nothing to do with it. The heat comes from flux generation.
Current doesn't drop in the autoformer, it goes UP as it raises the voltage.
There's much wrong with your understanding of electricity.
ScottG wrote:
What??
The voltage stays consistent through the autoformer?
Maybe you meant wattage? You'd still be wrong.
Some heat losses due to impedance?
Impedance has nothing to do with it. The heat comes from flux generation.
Current doesn't drop in the autoformer, it goes UP as it raises the voltage.
There's much wrong with your understanding of electricity.
Lantley wrote:
P=I*E Power = current x volts
Lets use a 30 amp circuit operating properly
P= I x E 3600 =30 x 120
However under low voltage conditions
there is only 100 volts instead of 120
P= I x E or 30 x 100 =3000
the autoformer takes that same 3000 watts
and keeps the voltage consistent but the available current drops
3000 = 25 x 120 .(note current dropped from 30 amps to 25 amps).
Power is still 3000 watts
Now there are some heat losses and losses do to impedance. But over all that is the fundamental function of the autoformer.
It ensures adequate voltage, however in the process less current is available.
On a 50 amp circuit we don't necessarily need the full 6000 watts.
50 amps x 120 volts=6000 watts
So if the current drops a bit it doesn't matter as long as adequate voltage is maintained.
P=I*E Power = current x volts
Lets use a 30 amp circuit operating properly
P= I x E 3600 =30 x 120
However under low voltage conditions
there is only 100 volts instead of 120
P= I x E or 30 x 100 =3000
the autoformer takes that same 3000 watts
and keeps the voltage consistent but the available current drops
3000 = 25 x 120 .(note current dropped from 30 amps to 25 amps).
Power is still 3000 watts
Now there are some heat losses and losses do to impedance. But over all that is the fundamental function of the autoformer.
It ensures adequate voltage, however in the process less current is available.
On a 50 amp circuit we don't necessarily need the full 6000 watts.
50 amps x 120 volts=6000 watts
So if the current drops a bit it doesn't matter as long as adequate voltage is maintained.
What??
The voltage stays consistent through the autoformer?
Maybe you meant wattage? You'd still be wrong.
Some heat losses due to impedance?
Impedance has nothing to do with it. The heat comes from flux generation.
Current doesn't drop in the autoformer, it goes UP as it raises the voltage.
There's much wrong with your understanding of electricity.
I think Lantley is talking about input voltage/current where you're thinking output and vice-versa. The autoformer is designed or intended to maintain--or at least enable one to maintain--a more or less constant output voltage, despite fluctuating input voltages. In the process, the output current you can use goes down if the input voltage goes down since the input current is limited by the circuit breaker etc.
I think you're all agreeing, more or less, on the basic concepts without realizing it.
![[emoticon]](http://www.coastresorts.com/sharedcontent/cfb/images/wink.gif "wink")
![[emoticon]](http://www.coastresorts.com/sharedcontent/cfb/images/smile.gif "smile")
For the folks that use a transformer, I'm glad it works for you. I accept and agree they have utility in protecting motor loads inside the RV that would be otherwise harmed by low voltage.
I'm just saying they are not magic, they DO make problems worse for others in the park who do not have the luxury of such a device.
/unsubscribe
GordonThree wrote:
ScottG I'm tossing in the towel. Luckily this is a travel forum and not an electrician forum, or physics forum
For the folks that use a transformer, I'm glad it works for you. I accept and agree they have utility in protecting motor loads inside the RV that would be otherwise harmed by low voltage.
I'm just saying they are not magic, they DO make problems worse for others in the park who do not have the luxury of such a device.
/unsubscribe
ScottG I'm tossing in the towel. Luckily this is a travel forum and not an electrician forum, or physics forum
For the folks that use a transformer, I'm glad it works for you. I accept and agree they have utility in protecting motor loads inside the RV that would be otherwise harmed by low voltage.
I'm just saying they are not magic, they DO make problems worse for others in the park who do not have the luxury of such a device.
/unsubscribe
And with that, we totally agree!
Low voltage is created by ALL connected using more power than the circuit was designed for. If the few people using a Hughes were to run without... the voltage would not suddenly pop back up to 120.
Really need the maintenance guy to turn off half the breakers on each circuit to reduce usage. Then alternate each hour who gets power.
* This post was edited 04/15/18 10:17pm by time2roll *
If the park has a substandard system that can't provide what they are selling, it's not my fault.
If I bypass the circuit breaker on the pedestal and start drawing 40amps, they have a legitimate complaint but otherwise, they can provide what they sold or shut up about the use of voltage boosters.
If you are worried about being called out, you can mount the box in the compartment (with reasonable airflow to allow cooling) and they will never know the difference.
Tammy & Mike
Ford F250 V10
2021 Gray Wolf
Gemini Catamaran 34'
Full Time spliting time between boat and RV
valhalla360 wrote:
If the park sells me a site with 30amp electricity unless they specifically call out the voltage, the assumption is it's standard 120v power so if I take 30amps at 120v at the RV by boosting the voltage back up around 120v, I have only taken what was contractually agreed to.
If the park has a substandard system that can't provide what they are selling, it's not my fault.
If I bypass the circuit breaker on the pedestal and start drawing 40amps, they have a legitimate complaint but otherwise, they can provide what they sold or shut up about the use of voltage boosters.
If you are worried about being called out, you can mount the box in the compartment (with reasonable airflow to allow cooling) and they will never know the difference.
If the park sells me a site with 30amp electricity unless they specifically call out the voltage, the assumption is it's standard 120v power so if I take 30amps at 120v at the RV by boosting the voltage back up around 120v, I have only taken what was contractually agreed to.
If the park has a substandard system that can't provide what they are selling, it's not my fault.
If I bypass the circuit breaker on the pedestal and start drawing 40amps, they have a legitimate complaint but otherwise, they can provide what they sold or shut up about the use of voltage boosters.
If you are worried about being called out, you can mount the box in the compartment (with reasonable airflow to allow cooling) and they will never know the difference.
What, a post based on common sense? Amazing!
time2roll wrote:
Yes the autoformer uses a bit more power but it is negligible.
Low voltage is created by ALL connected using more power than the circuit was designed for. If the few people using a Hughes were to run without... the voltage would not suddenly pop back up to 120.
Yes the autoformer uses a bit more power but it is negligible.
Low voltage is created by ALL connected using more power than the circuit was designed for. If the few people using a Hughes were to run without... the voltage would not suddenly pop back up to 120.
Exactly, THe autoformer does not create the low voltage problem. The problem already exist.
Ralph Cramden wrote:
Absolutely.....did so in 2008, and twice since as recent as last season. System has not been touched.
GordonThree wrote:
Report this park to the County building inspector, and the state building inspector. Low voltage is a safety issue.
Report this park to the County building inspector, and the state building inspector. Low voltage is a safety issue.
Absolutely.....did so in 2008, and twice since as recent as last season. System has not been touched.
I dunno Ralph. If you've been there to a park with this problem a number of times in the past 10 years, I think some of that may be on you.
Jerry & Jeanne
1996 Safari Sahara 3530 - 'White Tiger'
CAT 3126/Allison 6 speed/Magnum Chassis
2014 Equinox AWD / Blue Ox
dockmasterdave wrote:
Old Biscuit I only have the PI surge protector, not EMS. Yes, I would like to buy one but can't afford everything at once.
So my surge protector won't be correcting before the hughes, just protecting it.
This deal just showed up for a good condition Hughes 30 amp for $120.
Possibly too good to pass up. I can still buy the good PI ems later and put it inline after the Hughes as you suggest.
Old Biscuit I only have the PI surge protector, not EMS. Yes, I would like to buy one but can't afford everything at once.
So my surge protector won't be correcting before the hughes, just protecting it.
This deal just showed up for a good condition Hughes 30 amp for $120.
Possibly too good to pass up. I can still buy the good PI ems later and put it inline after the Hughes as you suggest.
That's exactly the way I have mine....surge only in front of the Autoformer and EMS after. Everything connected with plugs/receptacles so removing a unit in the event of failure is just a matter of unplugging.
I have had the autoformer for about 15 years. I bought it after a trip to the northeast and having to move out of a few older campgrounds due to low voltage when people were running their AC's . My autoformer is in a bay so it's protected from elements and prying eyes.
Joe
2013 Dutch Star 4338- all electric
Toad is 2015 F-150 with bikes,kayaks and Harley aboard
dockmasterdave wrote:
I am looking at a used hughes autoformer. I know some parks rules say they are not allowed.
Some parks we have been in, I have seen voltage at @ 102 to 104 with my a/c on.
I would be using a PI 3o amp surge protector in front of a hughes autoformer then the rv cord.
I just wondered if anyone has gotten in trouble for using their autoformer ?
I am looking at a used hughes autoformer. I know some parks rules say they are not allowed.
Some parks we have been in, I have seen voltage at @ 102 to 104 with my a/c on.
I would be using a PI 3o amp surge protector in front of a hughes autoformer then the rv cord.
I just wondered if anyone has gotten in trouble for using their autoformer ?
Good idea to test it. I have had a 50 amp autoformer for a long time, it suddenly started boosting voltage to 135 VAC. Hughes rebuilt it and all is back to normal but the rebuild is not cheap. The shipping of those heavy things is also not cheap.
I took it to Quartzsite where Hughes had a sales booth and they took it with them thus saving me one way shipping.
Jim
2007 Monaco Signature Noble III ISX 600HP
jplante4 wrote:
I dunno Ralph. If you've been there to a park with this problem a number of times in the past 10 years, I think some of that may be on you.
Ralph Cramden wrote:
Absolutely.....did so in 2008, and twice since as recent as last season. System has not been touched.
GordonThree wrote:
Report this park to the County building inspector, and the state building inspector. Low voltage is a safety issue.
Report this park to the County building inspector, and the state building inspector. Low voltage is a safety issue.
Absolutely.....did so in 2008, and twice since as recent as last season. System has not been touched.
I dunno Ralph. If you've been there to a park with this problem a number of times in the past 10 years, I think some of that may be on you.
Funny I just had to get out my autoformer at a park over the weekend, that is notorious for low voltage. It is a decent park otherwise. This park is on of the reasons I purchased a autoformer.
I can ruin my equipment waiting for the park to upgrade their system or I can address the low voltage issue myself.
I have to laugh at those who somehow think the autoformer is making things worse. The park had a low voltage problem when I arrived, It had a low voltage problem while I was there plugged in via my autoformer, and it had the same low voltage problem when I left.
The problem will remain until the CG address the root of the issue.
Until then I will keep auto forming!
Lantley wrote:
Funny I just had to get out my autoformer at a park over the weekend, that is notorious for low voltage. It is a decent park otherwise. This park is on of the reasons I purchased a autoformer.
Funny I just had to get out my autoformer at a park over the weekend, that is notorious for low voltage. It is a decent park otherwise. This park is on of the reasons I purchased a autoformer.
Even well run, well funded park systems with up-to-date electrical facilities such as our Ontario Provincial Parks can be stressed during the busy summer months to the point where low voltage becomes a real issue. It's happened to us each year at The Pinery which has a 1000 sites in operation, about 40% of which are 30 amp electrical. During July especially it's tough to get a site of any kind without reserving well in advance, an electric site is almost impossible. At those times when everyone is running A/C voltage takes a nosedive and every summer my Progressive EMS says enough is enough and disconnects. A voltage regulator like the Hughes Autoformer would solve this but at something like $800+ Cdn it's pretty hard to justify when this only happens 2 or 3 times a season. Disconnecting with my EMS isn't the end of the world as the trailer just continues to run on propane & battery power - we just can't run the A/C but we use it so seldom anyway losing shore power for a few hours just hasn't proven to be the issue for us that it would be who is a full timer or lives seasonally in their camper.
The way an autoformer works is simple: power in = power out, minus autoformer internal losses. If voltage is down on the input side and voltage is up on the output side, the current on the input side HAS TO go up. Example - if voltage is boosted by 10% on the output, current draw on the input side will go up by 10%. An autoformer can't make power but it can lose a bit.
You are limited to the 30 amps at the pedestal (or 50 amps) and the breakers do not care what the voltage is. So say a 30 amp pedestal was at 100 volts, the most you can draw is 3,000 watts (down from 3600 @ 120 volts). The autoformer will be boosting the output by 10% to 110 volts but will only be able to draw max 27 amps inside the RV (not really a big deal). When an autoformer is in boost mode, you lose available capacity compared to being at 120 volts.
If you had to, I would argue with a CG that if the voltage is low, you draw less power compared to being at the normal 120 volt level so what's the problem... Have fun with that.
Voltage drop in CGs is due either to the NEC min. code requirements that were used at the time of construction or inadequate maintenance of CG wiring. It's usually the former, and older CGs are just not able to keep up with the high demands of today's RVs. Newer campgrounds are wired with loop-fed pedestals with up to 9 sites on a 200 amp feeder and are MUCH less likely to have voltage issues. Older CGs had remote panels around the property often with individual 30 amp (or 50 amp) runs to sites from a remote panel. You may be connected to a #10 wiring run to your site or be on a 200 amp run shared by other users.
In CGS that are predominantly 30 amp pedestals, many 50 amp RVs are often plugged into them and draw more load than the CG would have been designed for. Prior to 2005, only 5% of CGs had to have 50 amp pedestals, after 2005 it was changed to 20% being required. In the 2017 edition of the NEC, CGs are now required to have 40% 50 amp pedestals. This is a HUGE change from prior to 2005. Good luck on finding newly built CGs anywhere. Some owners will have voluntarily built above min. code requirements.
Another thing that comes into play is the demand calculation requirements of the NEC. One 30 amp pedestal has a demand load of 3600 watts and a 50 amp, 9600 watts (now increased to 12,000 in the 2017 NEC). One site only is calculated at 100% and the more sites there are, the lower the demand figure is up to 36 sites or more which is down to 41% total overall. So there could be a case where many newer higher demand RVs using 50/30 adapters are pushing the main service and sub-feeders to the max in an older CG
So, if a CG is maxed out on "normal" demand loads on a busy & hot summer day, the demand at the main service point or a feeder to a CG section could be near it's limit already. Theoretically, if enough sites were using autoformers, a section or entire CG could be taken down. We were in a CG once that was in that predicament and asked everyone to minimize their electrical usage, despite being very hot out. In reality though, I don't think there are really that many autoformers being used. I've only ever seen a small handful of them in our travels.
We bought a used 30 amp Hughes autoformer a few seasons ago for just over $200US after being in a few too many CGs with low voltage. One was so bad, as soon as we plugged into the 30 amp pedestal, our EMS tripped because the voltage went below 104 volts before even turning anything on. If you value voltage sensitive electrical things in your RV you can either find a better site in the CG with good voltage, find another CG or pull out your autoformer. I'd opt for an autoformer every time. If staying in an older CG especially, you can easily have low voltage. It's not a rare occurrence out there. In the beginning I was not in favor of autoformers but now have no problem with them.
I made a 6' extension cord for the autoformer so I can put it under our TT rather than have it sitting at the pedestal.
I have heard of CGs banning the use of autoformers but have never run across one. Have also heard of some CGs banning electric heaters which I don't understand because they don't restrict the use of AC units. I think some CGs have no clue about electrical stuff. Why frown on autoformers and not limit how much electrical things people use in their RVs? We rarely go over 15 amps and can't see another 10% draw from the autoformer causing anyone a problem.
Lastly, the output of resistive appliances (toasters, coffee makers, space heaters, etc.) varies as the square of the voltage. If at 100 volts for ex., the output would be .9 x .9 = 81% of the rating at the nominal 120 volts. It can take longer for toast & coffee and you may not be warm enough inside. One more reason to have good voltage.
myredracer wrote:
When an autoformer is in boost mode, you lose available capacity compared to being at 120 volts.
When an autoformer is in boost mode, you lose available capacity compared to being at 120 volts.
Although I may be plugged into a 30 amp campsite supply my normal draw is but a few amps, enough to keep the fridge running, the converter idling, etc, and it's only when we may briefly run the toaster or coffee maker would that draw increase ... but only for a few minutes and still only adding ~ 6 amps to the draw. Only those few times each season we may run the A/C for a few hours would we draw an additional 14 amps but in those cases, because we always practice power management and would turn off the A/C compressor for a few minutes while using another high draw device such as my wife's hair dryer or the toaster or coffee maker, our total draw is always still within 20 amps max. I can't think of any time we've pulled more than that so any loss in capacity due to autoformer use would be a moot point for us ... and moot for anyone else who gives this any thought.
myredracer wrote:
If you had to, I would argue with a CG that if the voltage is low, you draw less power compared to being at the normal 120 volt level so what's the problem... Have fun with that.
If you had to, I would argue with a CG that if the voltage is low, you draw less power compared to being at the normal 120 volt level so what's the problem... Have fun with that.
Too funny.
![[emoticon]](http://www.coastresorts.com/sharedcontent/cfb/images/biggrin.gif "biggrin")
You just made me spit out my tea. ![[emoticon]](http://www.coastresorts.com/sharedcontent/cfb/images/awink.gif "awink")
myredracer wrote:
In reality though, I don't think there are really that many autoformers being used. I've only ever seen a small handful of them in our travels.
In reality though, I don't think there are really that many autoformers being used. I've only ever seen a small handful of them in our travels.
A "handful" I'd bet would even be an overestimation, more like hardly any at all.
myredracer wrote:
Have also heard of some CGs banning electric heaters which I don't understand because they don't restrict the use of AC units.
Have also heard of some CGs banning electric heaters which I don't understand because they don't restrict the use of AC units.
I've never seen this here in Ontario but we have run into several campgrounds in the US where we've been advised when checking in to let them know if we intend to use either an electric heater or A/C and pay an additional fee for doing so.
![[emoticon]](http://www.coastresorts.com/sharedcontent/cfb/images/frown.gif "frown")
myredracer wrote:
Have also heard of some CGs banning electric heaters which I don't understand because they don't restrict the use of AC units.
Campground would prefer to sell you propane for the furnace than give free electric.Have also heard of some CGs banning electric heaters which I don't understand because they don't restrict the use of AC units.
And of course with anything free people over do it so the maintenance guy has to deal with overloaded RVs and the pedestals tripping.
BTW last Summer I was at a Montana campground with BRAND NEW 30 amp electric and less than 95 volts during the afternoon heat wave (almost 100F). Even my Franks booster was cutting out. Have since adjusted the cut out down to 80 volts and will let the PI-EMS decide when too low to boost is reached.
* This post was edited 04/16/18 01:19pm by time2roll *
myredracer wrote:
Have also heard of some CGs banning electric heaters which I don't understand because they don't restrict the use of AC units.
AC uses less power. It takes more power to bring a space up 30 degrees than down 20.
Have also heard of some CGs banning electric heaters which I don't understand because they don't restrict the use of AC units.
Could you give us a good estimate of power usage between an AC laboring on 100 volts, and an AC operating more efficiently on 110 volts boosted by an autoformer? Of course the one on low voltage may well burn up.
Dutch
2001 GBM Landau 34' Class A
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Bigfoot Automatic Leveling System
2011 Toyota RAV4 4WD/Remco pump
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GordonThree wrote:
Boosting 100 volts to 120 volts, with wattage remaining fixed (same load), means your transformer will drawing more amps over an already overloaded distribution system to make up the volts.
I can see a park with a sub-standard system being upset about blowing a main transformer or damaging lines if everyone were running their own transformer.
It will make the problem worse for others on the system that don't have their own transformer. Your transformer will only cause the voltage to drop even lower for others.
Given today's society, the me-first thinking that's popular, lowering someone else's voltage is not my problem, others can buy a transformer too of course.
Boosting 100 volts to 120 volts, with wattage remaining fixed (same load), means your transformer will drawing more amps over an already overloaded distribution system to make up the volts.
I can see a park with a sub-standard system being upset about blowing a main transformer or damaging lines if everyone were running their own transformer.
It will make the problem worse for others on the system that don't have their own transformer. Your transformer will only cause the voltage to drop even lower for others.
Given today's society, the me-first thinking that's popular, lowering someone else's voltage is not my problem, others can buy a transformer too of course.
Here is the statement from Hughes:
"How Does it Work?
Autoformers are used in industries to stabilize voltage and lower the operating cost of equipment. The Autoformer has 5 windings: 2 primary and 3 secondary. All models have surge and spike protection. When the unit is in Automatic and the park or input voltage is 116 volts or below, the output is 10% over the input. When the input is over 118 volts, the output is 2% over the input.
The Autoformer DOES NOT take power from the park.
It does not affect the park or input voltage, or make electricity.
What it is doing is changing the voltage – amperage relationship, lowering the amperage and raising the voltage. Since appliances run better on higher voltage, lower amperage, less overall power is used from the park, and better service is enjoyed from your RV
An Autoformer running at full output (50amps) will use 1 amp, but will cause appliances to cycle more often and run cooler. This will use less total power from the park. "
If I am reading this correctly, the Hughes works by sacrificing Amperage availability by boosting voltage based on the Wattage demand of what the RV "appliances" are demanding. Net, the ones you need running will run more efficiently, but you will not be able to run as many since the AMPS will not be available. If that is correct, a person using an Hughes Autoformer isn't stealing anything from the park or anyone else in the park.
To answer the OP's question: I have used the Hughes Autoformer with several RV's and have never been questioned by any Park I've been in. Many parks have been upgrading their electrical and I find fewer now that have low voltage issues than I used to. Although on hot days with everyone's AC going, the voltage does tend to drop a bit in mid day even in parks with good electrical. I use the Hughes to protect my AC and other "appliances" from struggling on too few volts.
"Second star to the right and straight on 'til morning." Captain Kirk in Star Trek VI 'The Undiscovered Country'
2007 39K Winnebago Journey "The Enterprise"
Jeep Cherokee Sport 4x4
Dutch_12078 wrote:
I don't use an autoformer, nor have I run across a park to date where I needed one, but in those that prohibit them in their rules, I've found the predominate reasons are that they believe the devices somehow "steal" power, although I've never found a park manager or owner that could logically explain how that happens. The other reason has been possible liability insurance issues because the NEC prohibits the use of auto(trans)formers in RV's, which it does. I have inquired of the NFPA what the reasoning is behind the prohibition a couple of times, but I've never gotten a response.
I don't use an autoformer, nor have I run across a park to date where I needed one, but in those that prohibit them in their rules, I've found the predominate reasons are that they believe the devices somehow "steal" power, although I've never found a park manager or owner that could logically explain how that happens. The other reason has been possible liability insurance issues because the NEC prohibits the use of auto(trans)formers in RV's, which it does. I have inquired of the NFPA what the reasoning is behind the prohibition a couple of times, but I've never gotten a response.
The wording of that section in the NEC is none to clear, but I think the intent of the prohibition is only to have it applied to the convert. The overall section it's in deals with the interaction of the 12V system and the 120V system (I think the term is "separately derived systems" here, but it's been a bit since I read it). If so, it makes sense that they would want full galvanic isolation between the 12V side and the 120V side, which means the transformer in the converter can't be an autotransformer but instead needs isolated input and output lines. This avoids creating a ground fault on the AC side (connecting the neutral to the chassis ground via the 12V negative lead), among other difficulties.
Assuming that's the intent, they could have worded it a bit more specifically and clearly!
Dutch_12078 wrote:
I don't use an autoformer, nor have I run across a park to date where I needed one, but in those that prohibit them in their rules, I've found the predominate reasons are that they believe the devices somehow "steal" power, although I've never found a park manager or owner that could logically explain how that happens. The other reason has been possible liability insurance issues because the NEC prohibits the use of auto(trans)formers in RV's, which it does. I have inquired of the NFPA what the reasoning is behind the prohibition a couple of times, but I've never gotten a response.
I don't use an autoformer, nor have I run across a park to date where I needed one, but in those that prohibit them in their rules, I've found the predominate reasons are that they believe the devices somehow "steal" power, although I've never found a park manager or owner that could logically explain how that happens. The other reason has been possible liability insurance issues because the NEC prohibits the use of auto(trans)formers in RV's, which it does. I have inquired of the NFPA what the reasoning is behind the prohibition a couple of times, but I've never gotten a response.
First question: How do you know you haven't needed one? Unless you have a voltage meter that you monitor, you may well have had 104v power and were slowly cooking the air/con compressor but it may not fail until months later at another park with good power.
We didn't pick up an autoformer until we had low voltage kill and air/con unit. Then we started monitoring and found it surprisingly common to have low voltage on hot days.
jplante4 wrote:
I dunno Ralph. If you've been there to a park with this problem a number of times in the past 10 years, I think some of that may be on you.
Ralph Cramden wrote:
Absolutely.....did so in 2008, and twice since as recent as last season. System has not been touched.
GordonThree wrote:
Report this park to the County building inspector, and the state building inspector. Low voltage is a safety issue.
Report this park to the County building inspector, and the state building inspector. Low voltage is a safety issue.
Absolutely.....did so in 2008, and twice since as recent as last season. System has not been touched.
I dunno Ralph. If you've been there to a park with this problem a number of times in the past 10 years, I think some of that may be on you.
Maybe so, but I really like the park and started going there with my parents in the late 60's. The electric was installed sometime in the early 80's and was all 30 amp with one duplex pedestal for every two sites. No issues if not crowded or someone is on the next site that shares the same pedestal, but when crowded that's when an autoformer is a must if anything to keep the EMS from kicking out.
Interestingly the state chose to spend a ton of money upgrading 10 sites to 50 amp full hookup 2 years ago, instead of addressing power issues/capacity on the other 150+ electric only sites wired 40 some odd years ago. And it was never much of an issue until the trend became camping in 36' monster rigs with 2 AC's, 4 TV's,and washers and dryers. Most people don't understand the limitations, they buy that huge rig and use it a few weekends a year, and are clueless to what is involved or required to do so. They whip out the dogbones, plug the 50 amp rig into the 30 amp, and let er rip. Then they wonder why the microwave pukes and the AC goes poof. When that happens they expect the state DCNR to foot the bill. The state's solution to that issue is they now list them as 20 amp sites in their brochures and the reservation website despite 30 amp receptacles and 1980 30 amp wiring. It still does not stop the people with the double wide mobile homes on Memorial, Independence, and labor day weekends.
This... Or the 45' monsters with three AC units running and no one in the coach.
"First question: How do you know you haven't needed one? Unless you have a voltage meter that you monitor, you may well have had 104v power and were slowly cooking the air/con compressor but it may not fail until months later at another park with good power"
This weekend I had my autoformer in use however no one else seemed concerned about the low voltage. Without an EMS or at least a meter I imagine they were not aware the low voltage condition existed.
As the saying goes "Ignorance is bliss"
Lantley wrote:
This weekend I had my autoformer in use however no one else seemed concerned about the low voltage. Without an EMS or at least a meter I imagine they were not aware the low voltage condition existed.
As the saying goes "Ignorance is bliss"
This weekend I had my autoformer in use however no one else seemed concerned about the low voltage. Without an EMS or at least a meter I imagine they were not aware the low voltage condition existed.
As the saying goes "Ignorance is bliss"
Totally unscientific but I'd bet that describes 99.9% of RVrs.
Of the many friends and others we know who camp I can't think of a single one who owns an autoformer and only one other than myself who plugs in using an EMS ... virtually everyone else simply plugs in and doesn't give it another thought. No wonder my own dealer does a brisk business every season selling replacement converters and microwave ovens, including myself before I figured out how damaging low voltage can be. Yeah, apparently "ignorance is bliss" ... until you suffer a failure and have to ante up to fix the damage.
SoundGuy wrote:
Totally unscientific but I'd bet that describes 99.9% of RVrs. Of the many friends and others we know who camp I can't think of a single one who owns an autoformer and only one other than myself who plugs in using an EMS ... virtually everyone else simply plugs in and doesn't give it another thought. No wonder my own dealer does a brisk business every season selling replacement converters and microwave ovens, including myself before I figured out how damaging low voltage can be. Yeah, apparently "ignorance is bliss" ... until you suffer a failure and have to ante up to fix the damage.
Lantley wrote:
This weekend I had my autoformer in use however no one else seemed concerned about the low voltage. Without an EMS or at least a meter I imagine they were not aware the low voltage condition existed.
As the saying goes "Ignorance is bliss"
This weekend I had my autoformer in use however no one else seemed concerned about the low voltage. Without an EMS or at least a meter I imagine they were not aware the low voltage condition existed.
As the saying goes "Ignorance is bliss"
Totally unscientific but I'd bet that describes 99.9% of RVrs.
Of the many friends and others we know who camp I can't think of a single one who owns an autoformer and only one other than myself who plugs in using an EMS ... virtually everyone else simply plugs in and doesn't give it another thought. No wonder my own dealer does a brisk business every season selling replacement converters and microwave ovens, including myself before I figured out how damaging low voltage can be. Yeah, apparently "ignorance is bliss" ... until you suffer a failure and have to ante up to fix the damage. I admit it. I was in the 99.9% until we cooked the air/con unit and I started checking to see if there was a reason and found voltage as low as 98V.
One thing to note: If the voltage is good, the autoformer doesn't do anything, so you aren't changing your draw. The only time it activates is if the park supplies substandard power.
Surge protectors (Really spike suppressors) are nothing more than MOV's
The Hughes autoformer.. Huse put 'em in there. So putting a spike supressor type surge protector before it.. Over kill
They are easy to replace when they wear out and they do wear out.
That said. I have 'em too. It is possible, in theory. to have too MUCH spike supression. but you'd be looking at a very large pile of MOV's Very Large.
wa8yxm wrote:
Surge protectors (Really spike suppressors) are nothing more than MOV's
The Hughes autoformer.. Huse put 'em in there. So putting a spike supressor type surge protector before it.. Over kill
They are easy to replace when they wear out and they do wear out.
Surge protectors (Really spike suppressors) are nothing more than MOV's
The Hughes autoformer.. Huse put 'em in there. So putting a spike supressor type surge protector before it.. Over kill
They are easy to replace when they wear out and they do wear out.
Well, yes and no.
Blow the MOVs in your Hughes Autoformer and the company wants you to return the entire unit to them for repair. For a unit weighing in excess of 20 lbs shipping costs, depending on where you are, can be an issue. For we Canadians we also have the additional problem of having to deal with customs, both sending it to the US and having it returned ... it's just a PITA. ![[emoticon]](http://www.coastresorts.com/sharedcontent/cfb/images/mad.gif "mad")
Same for a portable EMS like the Progressive EMS-PT30C or X - manufacturer wants you to return the entire unit to them for repair. That's one of the main reasons I instead chose a hard wire EMS-HW30C which the company considers "field serviceable" ... if it fails I can simply call Progressive, describe the problem and provide any error codes, and they'll mail me the replacement parts (which themselves are quite small and light weight) via USPS. MUCH easier ... but for me, as a Canadian, this why I think I'll just stick with my EMS that disconnects power to the rig when an error, including low voltage is detected, rather than change to an autoformer that would be significantly more aggravating to have repaired.
2012 Silverado 1500 Crew Cab
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Lantley wrote:
valhalla360 wrote:
"First question: How do you know you haven't needed one? Unless you have a voltage meter that you monitor, you may well have had 104v power and were slowly cooking the air/con compressor but it may not fail until months later at another park with good power"
This weekend I had my autoformer in use however no one else seemed concerned about the low voltage. Without an EMS or at least a meter I imagine they were not aware the low voltage condition existed.
As the saying goes "Ignorance is bliss"
valhalla360 wrote:
"First question: How do you know you haven't needed one? Unless you have a voltage meter that you monitor, you may well have had 104v power and were slowly cooking the air/con compressor but it may not fail until months later at another park with good power"
This weekend I had my autoformer in use however no one else seemed concerned about the low voltage. Without an EMS or at least a meter I imagine they were not aware the low voltage condition existed.
As the saying goes "Ignorance is bliss"
I decided on an autoformer purchase after being in a campground as the Friday night crowd rolled in. They start up the AC's and water heater's all within a short period of time and the voltage dipped to 99. When I walked about the campground, I asked a few if they knew that the voltage was low, only to be met with stupid looks and the "never had a problem" answers.
Lantley wrote:
This weekend I had my autoformer in use however no one else seemed concerned about the low voltage. Without an EMS or at least a meter I imagine they were not aware the low voltage condition existed. As the saying goes "Ignorance is bliss"
This weekend I had my autoformer in use however no one else seemed concerned about the low voltage. Without an EMS or at least a meter I imagine they were not aware the low voltage condition existed. As the saying goes "Ignorance is bliss"
Lynnmor wrote:
I decided on an autoformer purchase after being in a campground as the Friday night crowd rolled in. They start up the AC's and water heater's all within a short period of time and the voltage dipped to 99. When I walked about the campground, I asked a few if they knew that the voltage was low, only to be met with stupid looks and the "never had a problem" answers.
I decided on an autoformer purchase after being in a campground as the Friday night crowd rolled in. They start up the AC's and water heater's all within a short period of time and the voltage dipped to 99. When I walked about the campground, I asked a few if they knew that the voltage was low, only to be met with stupid looks and the "never had a problem" answers.
Sadly, par for the course.
![[image]](https://i.imgur.com/NY8UmrSl.jpg)
2015 RAM LongHorn 3500 Dually CrewCab 4X4 CUMMINS/AISIN RearAir 385HP/865TQ 4:10's
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valhalla360 wrote:
First question: How do you know you haven't needed one? Unless you have a voltage meter that you monitor, you may well have had 104v power and were slowly cooking the air/con compressor but it may not fail until months later at another park with good power.
We didn't pick up an autoformer until we had low voltage kill and air/con unit. Then we started monitoring and found it surprisingly common to have low voltage on hot days.
Dutch_12078 wrote:
I don't use an autoformer, nor have I run across a park to date where I needed one, but in those that prohibit them in their rules, I've found the predominate reasons are that they believe the devices somehow "steal" power, although I've never found a park manager or owner that could logically explain how that happens. The other reason has been possible liability insurance issues because the NEC prohibits the use of auto(trans)formers in RV's, which it does. I have inquired of the NFPA what the reasoning is behind the prohibition a couple of times, but I've never gotten a response.
I don't use an autoformer, nor have I run across a park to date where I needed one, but in those that prohibit them in their rules, I've found the predominate reasons are that they believe the devices somehow "steal" power, although I've never found a park manager or owner that could logically explain how that happens. The other reason has been possible liability insurance issues because the NEC prohibits the use of auto(trans)formers in RV's, which it does. I have inquired of the NFPA what the reasoning is behind the prohibition a couple of times, but I've never gotten a response.
First question: How do you know you haven't needed one? Unless you have a voltage meter that you monitor, you may well have had 104v power and were slowly cooking the air/con compressor but it may not fail until months later at another park with good power.
We didn't pick up an autoformer until we had low voltage kill and air/con unit. Then we started monitoring and found it surprisingly common to have low voltage on hot days.
My Surge Guard has never tripped off for low voltage.
Dutch_12078 wrote:
My Surge Guard has never tripped off for low voltage.
My Surge Guard has never tripped off for low voltage.
Maybe not, but 116 volts is much better than 105, or whatever your low point might be.
Dutch_12078 wrote:
My Surge Guard has never tripped off for low voltage.
valhalla360 wrote:
First question: How do you know you haven't needed one? Unless you have a voltage meter that you monitor, you may well have had 104v power and were slowly cooking the air/con compressor but it may not fail until months later at another park with good power.
We didn't pick up an autoformer until we had low voltage kill and air/con unit. Then we started monitoring and found it surprisingly common to have low voltage on hot days.
Dutch_12078 wrote:
I don't use an autoformer, nor have I run across a park to date where I needed one, but in those that prohibit them in their rules, I've found the predominate reasons are that they believe the devices somehow "steal" power, although I've never found a park manager or owner that could logically explain how that happens. The other reason has been possible liability insurance issues because the NEC prohibits the use of auto(trans)formers in RV's, which it does. I have inquired of the NFPA what the reasoning is behind the prohibition a couple of times, but I've never gotten a response.
I don't use an autoformer, nor have I run across a park to date where I needed one, but in those that prohibit them in their rules, I've found the predominate reasons are that they believe the devices somehow "steal" power, although I've never found a park manager or owner that could logically explain how that happens. The other reason has been possible liability insurance issues because the NEC prohibits the use of auto(trans)formers in RV's, which it does. I have inquired of the NFPA what the reasoning is behind the prohibition a couple of times, but I've never gotten a response.
First question: How do you know you haven't needed one? Unless you have a voltage meter that you monitor, you may well have had 104v power and were slowly cooking the air/con compressor but it may not fail until months later at another park with good power.
We didn't pick up an autoformer until we had low voltage kill and air/con unit. Then we started monitoring and found it surprisingly common to have low voltage on hot days.
My Surge Guard has never tripped off for low voltage.
Does your surge guard have a low voltage feature? They are not all created equal!
My Progressive EMSalets me to something 2 or 3 times a year. I am not a full timer.
There are electrical problems out there. I imagine most of us with autoformers eventually purchased them after experiencing low voltage sites first hand.
In time you realize these low voltage sites are lurking and in many cases the CG's are reluctant to address the issue.
Autoformers allow individual campers to protect their own equipment from low voltage damage.
Lantley wrote:
Does your surge guard have a low voltage feature? They are not all created equal!
My Progressive EMSalets me to something 2 or 3 times a year. I am not a full timer.
There are electrical problems out there. I imagine most of us with autoformers eventually purchased them after experiencing low voltage sites first hand.
In time you realize these low voltage sites are lurking and in many cases the CG's are reluctant to address the issue.
Autoformers allow individual campers to protect their own equipment from low voltage damage.
Dutch_12078 wrote:
My Surge Guard has never tripped off for low voltage.
My Surge Guard has never tripped off for low voltage.
Does your surge guard have a low voltage feature? They are not all created equal!
My Progressive EMSalets me to something 2 or 3 times a year. I am not a full timer.
There are electrical problems out there. I imagine most of us with autoformers eventually purchased them after experiencing low voltage sites first hand.
In time you realize these low voltage sites are lurking and in many cases the CG's are reluctant to address the issue.
Autoformers allow individual campers to protect their own equipment from low voltage damage.
I have a SurgeGuard 35550 installed in my coach:
"Product description"
"This 50 amp Surge Guard product monitors shore power continuously and shuts off when it detects power surges, open ground, open neutral, low or excessive voltage, miswired pedestals, reverse polarity, or elevated neutral current conditions that could damage electronic equipment in your coach. Like its 30 amp partner, the 50 amp hardwire unit is permanently installed within the bay of your coach, preventing potential theft and damage from the elements. Optional Remote LCD Display conveniently and remotely monitors RV electrical power."
But my surge has tracked a few low voltage scenarios over the 5 years I have had it.
Unfortunately I don't know of a simple way to create low voltage scenario in order that you may test your surge to verify it work properly.
Lantley wrote:
Unfortunately I don't know of a simple way to create low voltage scenario in order that you may test your surge to verify it work properly.
Variable transformer $55Unfortunately I don't know of a simple way to create low voltage scenario in order that you may test your surge to verify it work properly.
Or you could string a few extension cords together. Be safe.
Dutch_12078 wrote:
I have a SurgeGuard 35550 installed in my coach:
"Product description"
"This 50 amp Surge Guard product monitors shore power continuously and shuts off when it detects power surges, open ground, open neutral, low or excessive voltage, miswired pedestals, reverse polarity, or elevated neutral current conditions that could damage electronic equipment in your coach. Like its 30 amp partner, the 50 amp hardwire unit is permanently installed within the bay of your coach, preventing potential theft and damage from the elements. Optional Remote LCD Display conveniently and remotely monitors RV electrical power."
I have a SurgeGuard 35550 installed in my coach:
"Product description"
"This 50 amp Surge Guard product monitors shore power continuously and shuts off when it detects power surges, open ground, open neutral, low or excessive voltage, miswired pedestals, reverse polarity, or elevated neutral current conditions that could damage electronic equipment in your coach. Like its 30 amp partner, the 50 amp hardwire unit is permanently installed within the bay of your coach, preventing potential theft and damage from the elements. Optional Remote LCD Display conveniently and remotely monitors RV electrical power."
You do realize, your surgeguard will happily keep you powered down to 102V. That's well below what I'm comfortable with.
Lantley wrote:
Unfortunately I don't know of a simple way to create low voltage scenario in order that you may test your surge to verify it work properly.
Unfortunately I don't know of a simple way to create low voltage scenario in order that you may test your surge to verify it work properly.
Wish I could buy a Variac here in Canada for a price like that!
I notice a 30 amp version is also available ... for those of us who already own an EMS with low / high voltage disconnect I wonder if this 30 amp model couldn't be used in conjunction with the EMS to ensure adequate voltage supply to the trailer. I notice it's continuous rating is 25 amps but that's plenty for me.
Dutch_12078 wrote:
I have a SurgeGuard 35550 installed in my coach:
"This 50 amp Surge Guard product monitors shore power continuously and shuts off when it detects power surges, open ground, open neutral, low or excessive voltage, miswired pedestals, reverse polarity, or elevated neutral current conditions that could damage electronic equipment in your coach."
I have a SurgeGuard 35550 installed in my coach:
"This 50 amp Surge Guard product monitors shore power continuously and shuts off when it detects power surges, open ground, open neutral, low or excessive voltage, miswired pedestals, reverse polarity, or elevated neutral current conditions that could damage electronic equipment in your coach."
valhalla360 wrote:
You do realize, your surgeguard will happily keep you powered down to 102V. That's well below what I'm comfortable with.
You do realize, your surgeguard will happily keep you powered down to 102V. That's well below what I'm comfortable with.
And you do realize all TRC Surge Guard EMS units have always used 102 vac as the low voltage disconnect threshold?
Clearly those who designed these units are comfortable with this value, just as Progressive designers are obviously comfortable with having chosen 104 vac as their low voltage disconnect threshold. Since I'm not a design engineer I am personally comfortable with those who are having made this decision for me.
valhalla360 wrote:
You do realize, your surgeguard will happily keep you powered down to 102V. That's well below what I'm comfortable with.
Dutch_12078 wrote:
I have a SurgeGuard 35550 installed in my coach:
"Product description"
"This 50 amp Surge Guard product monitors shore power continuously and shuts off when it detects power surges, open ground, open neutral, low or excessive voltage, miswired pedestals, reverse polarity, or elevated neutral current conditions that could damage electronic equipment in your coach. Like its 30 amp partner, the 50 amp hardwire unit is permanently installed within the bay of your coach, preventing potential theft and damage from the elements. Optional Remote LCD Display conveniently and remotely monitors RV electrical power."
I have a SurgeGuard 35550 installed in my coach:
"Product description"
"This 50 amp Surge Guard product monitors shore power continuously and shuts off when it detects power surges, open ground, open neutral, low or excessive voltage, miswired pedestals, reverse polarity, or elevated neutral current conditions that could damage electronic equipment in your coach. Like its 30 amp partner, the 50 amp hardwire unit is permanently installed within the bay of your coach, preventing potential theft and damage from the elements. Optional Remote LCD Display conveniently and remotely monitors RV electrical power."
You do realize, your surgeguard will happily keep you powered down to 102V. That's well below what I'm comfortable with.
I also have an installed voltmeter where it's easily seen, and have never seen a voltage low enough to cause me any concern even at peak usage hours. I do recall seeing a brief 108 reading at a small campground some years ago, but that's the lowest I've seen in the last 15-20 years. In 75 years of camping/RV'ing, I've never had an appliance failure that I could attribute to low voltage. Maybe I'm just choosing the right places to stay. Or lucky...
Dutch_12078 wrote:
In 75 years of camping/RV'ing, I've never had an appliance failure that I could attribute to low voltage. Maybe I'm just choosing the right places to stay. Or lucky...
In 75 years of camping/RV'ing, I've never had an appliance failure that I could attribute to low voltage. Maybe I'm just choosing the right places to stay. Or lucky...
Lucky for sure.
My EMS disconnects power several times each season, not only while camping but also with the trailer plugged in here at the house. I'd never, ever plug in again without the benefit of having an EMS protect the trailer. And yes, before I started using an EMS I did lose a microwave oven - one day it worked, the next day it didn't.
SoundGuy wrote:
And you do realize all TRC Surge Guard EMS units have always used 102 vac as the low voltage disconnect threshold? Clearly those who designed these units are comfortable with this value, just as Progressive designers are obviously comfortable with having chosen 104 vac as their low voltage disconnect threshold. Since I'm not a design engineer I am personally comfortable with those who are having made this decision for me.
And you do realize all TRC Surge Guard EMS units have always used 102 vac as the low voltage disconnect threshold?
Clearly those who designed these units are comfortable with this value, just as Progressive designers are obviously comfortable with having chosen 104 vac as their low voltage disconnect threshold. Since I'm not a design engineer I am personally comfortable with those who are having made this decision for me. Kind of scary as the standard design voltage is typically 120v +-10%, so below 108v starts getting sketchy.
Doesn't mean the air/con is going to burn out the first time you see 102v but it's certainly not good for it.
Also, where is you surge guard mounted? If it's at the pedestal, you can easily have 50-60' of line with further voltage drop. Even the built in ones an have another 20' from the device to the air/con unit.
Obviously, better than nothing but the 102 is likely a compromise between it cutting out every time the voltage drops for a couple seconds below 108v.
SoundGuy wrote:
Lucky for sure. My EMS disconnects power several times each season, not only while camping but also with the trailer plugged in here at the house. I'd never, ever plug in again without the benefit of having an EMS protect the trailer. And yes, before I started using an EMS I did lose a microwave oven - one day it worked, the next day it didn't.
Dutch_12078 wrote:
In 75 years of camping/RV'ing, I've never had an appliance failure that I could attribute to low voltage. Maybe I'm just choosing the right places to stay. Or lucky...
In 75 years of camping/RV'ing, I've never had an appliance failure that I could attribute to low voltage. Maybe I'm just choosing the right places to stay. Or lucky...
Lucky for sure.
My EMS disconnects power several times each season, not only while camping but also with the trailer plugged in here at the house. I'd never, ever plug in again without the benefit of having an EMS protect the trailer. And yes, before I started using an EMS I did lose a microwave oven - one day it worked, the next day it didn't. I've replaced two microwaves in two different motorhomes in the past 10 years or so. The first one was a 15 year old Sharp with control buttons that were getting difficult to press, and the second one was a 13 year old Sharp with an LCD display that was separating from its substrate, making it difficult to see. I'm pretty sure neither problem was low voltage related...
SoundGuy wrote:
And you do realize all TRC Surge Guard EMS units have always used 102 vac as the low voltage disconnect threshold? Clearly those who designed these units are comfortable with this value, just as Progressive designers are obviously comfortable with having chosen 104 vac as their low voltage disconnect threshold. Since I'm not a design engineer I am personally comfortable with those who are having made this decision for me.
And you do realize all TRC Surge Guard EMS units have always used 102 vac as the low voltage disconnect threshold?
Clearly those who designed these units are comfortable with this value, just as Progressive designers are obviously comfortable with having chosen 104 vac as their low voltage disconnect threshold. Since I'm not a design engineer I am personally comfortable with those who are having made this decision for me. valhalla360 wrote:
Kind of scary as the standard design voltage is typically 120v +-10%, so below 108v starts getting sketchy.
Doesn't mean the air/con is going to burn out the first time you see 102v but it's certainly not good for it.
Kind of scary as the standard design voltage is typically 120v +-10%, so below 108v starts getting sketchy.
Doesn't mean the air/con is going to burn out the first time you see 102v but it's certainly not good for it.
Normal supply voltage in N America is sped'c to be 120 vac +/- 5%, meaning one should find unloaded source voltage no lower than 114 vac, no higher than 126 vac. In reality of course that's often not the case and voltage often does exceed these specified limits, in which case setting low voltage threshold much higher would result in significantly more disconnects. EMS units with low / high voltage disconnects are considered the last defense against damaging source voltage, ergo the reason designers have chosen 102 vac and 104 vac as an acceptable compromise that can protect equipment without excessive disconnects. Those who disagree would be candidates for a voltage regulator designed to maintain incoming source voltage closer to specification ... I don't, and therefore am happy to protect my trailer with a Progressive EMS with a low voltage threshold of 104 vac.
Most motors on the nameplate specify 115v not 120v.
valhalla360 wrote:
Kind of scary as the standard design voltage is typically 120v +-10%, so below 108v starts getting sketchy.
Kind of scary as the standard design voltage is typically 120v +-10%, so below 108v starts getting sketchy.
SoundGuy wrote:
Normal supply voltage in N America is sped'c to be 120 vac +/- 5%, meaning one should find unloaded source voltage no lower than 114 vac, no higher than 126 vac.
ANSI C84.1 is the standard in N. America that applies to power companies. 120 volts is the standard "nominal" voltage. There are two ranges, one is Range "A" of +/- 5% of nominal and range "B" which is +6% & -13%. A poco can supply 104.4 - 127.2 volts and still meet voltage delivery requirements. Range B is only to occur on an infrequent basis. PG&E has a good explanation here.Normal supply voltage in N America is sped'c to be 120 vac +/- 5%, meaning one should find unloaded source voltage no lower than 114 vac, no higher than 126 vac.
On top of that, there is voltage drop in feeders and branch circuits on private property. The NEC does not have a max. allowable voltage drop but has instead 6 recommendations which includes 5% total for a combined feeder and branch circuit.
Voltage can be as low as 99.2 (at the point of utilization) and still meet the ANSI standard and the NEC recommendations. Voltage drop can easily exceed 5% in older CGs/RV parks due to long runs of smaller gauge wire along with the higher demand of today's RVs.
Most electrical devices, equipment and appliances are designed and rated for 120 volt but some can be less like 110 or 115 volts (esp. motors) to account for presumed lower voltage at their terminals. AirXcel says "These air conditioners were designed to operate from a 115 VAC, 60 HZ, 1 Phase power supply" and couldn't find a min. voltage. Dometic states "The unit is a 115VAC, 60Hz appliance. The proper operating range is between 103 and 126.5 volts AC. " Just because they say the min. is 103 volts it doesn't mean that prolonged use at this voltage is perfectly okay. This is running voltage and during the momentary startup, the voltage can be waaay below what is good for the compressor & fan motors. Low voltage causes the motor windings to overheat and the damage is cumulative over time.
IMO, the SurgeGuard cutoff voltage of 102 is too low. I think even the PI 104 volts is too low and would prefer 105 or maybe a bit higher. Besides an EMS unit being highly recommended (as in almost mandatory), an digital/LED voltmeter permanently mounted inside is also highly recommended. Voltage can be rock solid at/near 120 or can go up & down like a yo-yo sometimes and down to near 104 where our EMS will cut out.
* This post was edited 04/18/18 09:58am by myredracer *
valhalla360 wrote:
Also, where is you surge guard mounted? If it's at the pedestal, you can easily have 50-60' of line with further voltage drop. Even the built in ones an have another 20' from the device to the air/con unit.
Also, where is you surge guard mounted? If it's at the pedestal, you can easily have 50-60' of line with further voltage drop. Even the built in ones an have another 20' from the device to the air/con unit.
You must be confusing me with someone else as I never said I'm running a TRC Surge Guard.
Several years ago I did have an early version portable TRC Surge Guard hard wired into the trailer just before the converter but replaced it with a hard wire Progressive EMS-HW30C which sits under the sofa and is likewise wired into the main service line that runs back to the converter. Like others I've found Progressive's meter calibration lacking and have re-calibrated mine so it does indeed disconnect at an indicated 104 vac.
Lynnmor wrote:
Gil,
Could you give us a good estimate of power usage between an AC laboring on 100 volts, and an AC operating more efficiently on 110 volts boosted by an autoformer? Of course the one on low voltage may well burn up.
Excellent question and one I have tried to find the answer on in the past. Unfortunately, RV AC makers do not publish any data on current draw versus voltage so can't give a reasonable/accurate answer. Couldn't find a graph of some kind either that would demonstrate what happens, even on a generic residential air conditioner. Gil,
Could you give us a good estimate of power usage between an AC laboring on 100 volts, and an AC operating more efficiently on 110 volts boosted by an autoformer? Of course the one on low voltage may well burn up.
The mechanical load on a compressor motor stays basically the same so as the voltage drops, the current will increase as the motor works harder to produce enough power to drive the compressor. In approximation, I would say that there isn't a significant difference in power consumpution. I think the autoformer has an internal loss of something like 3-5%.
The big difference is in damage that occurs as voltage gets low. HP output of the compressor motor will go down as the square of the voltage (running condition). At initial startup, the torque will drop as the square of the voltage. Both of these cause overheating of the windings and damage to the insulation. At some point as voltage drops and current goes up, the 20 amp breaker can trip or the overload element will (due to overheating windings) and if either occurs you want to check voltage. Momentary startup current can be in the 60-70+ amp range depending on model/brand of AC unit which is around 5 times full load running amps. You *could* be at a reasonble but low voltage while running but the voltage can drop out of sight on startup due to how the CG is wired. You can't see what happens to the voltage on startup and will never know harm it is doing.
Dutch_12078 wrote:
I don't use an autoformer, nor have I run across a park to date where I needed one, but in those that prohibit them in their rules, I've found the predominate reasons are that they believe the devices somehow "steal" power, although I've never found a park manager or owner that could logically explain how that happens. The other reason has been possible liability insurance issues because the NEC prohibits the use of auto(trans)formers in RV's, which it does. I have inquired of the NFPA what the reasoning is behind the prohibition a couple of times, but I've never gotten a response.
I don't use an autoformer, nor have I run across a park to date where I needed one, but in those that prohibit them in their rules, I've found the predominate reasons are that they believe the devices somehow "steal" power, although I've never found a park manager or owner that could logically explain how that happens. The other reason has been possible liability insurance issues because the NEC prohibits the use of auto(trans)formers in RV's, which it does. I have inquired of the NFPA what the reasoning is behind the prohibition a couple of times, but I've never gotten a response.
Note that the NEC only covers permanently installed electrical wiring & components installed within RVs by RV manufacturers. It is perfectly fine to use a plug-in autoformer. Oddly, extension cords and adapters aren't required to be UL listed (which is why CW sells non-listed ones). The Hughes autoformer as a complete unit isn't UL listed and only has internal components that are. You may not want a hardwired piece of equipment in an RV that isn't UL listed... I think I know why the NEC doesn't allow them but would be speculation on my part.
The autoformers do NOT steal power in any way, shape or form. It's scientifically impossible. If there were many users in a CG using autoformers, it is theoretically possible to increase current in feeders and the main service to the point that a section of a CG or the entire CG could be overloaded. When the current goes up, the voltage goes down so the power being used is the same or less. Plus, many autoformers would drag down the voltage throughout a CG. However, the reality is that there are very few RV-ers in CGs using autoformers.
Curious what CGs/RV parks people stay at where you don't run into low voltage? Do you monitor voltage with a permanent voltmeter mounted inside?
myredracer wrote:
Note that the NEC only covers permanently installed electrical wiring & components installed within RVs by RV manufacturers.
Note that the NEC only covers permanently installed electrical wiring & components installed within RVs by RV manufacturers.
Note that on a 30 amp RV the RV manufacturer uses a chunk of 10-2 Romex from the shore power connection to the main breaker. Also note that the entire system is installed by a bunch of hacks using the piecework method of compensation. If you look closely You'll probably find they over torqued all the breaker lugs stripping out the heads with a #2 square drive impact gun, and smashed the conductors so flat of you move them the slightest they'll snap right off. Also note the entire installation is backed up by RVIA certification........a nice shiny silver sticker......that is nothing more than a sticker LOL. If the installers did not over torque the connections, they probably left them loose.
No mention in this thread of high voltage conditions. I have experienced that at certain parks on occasion and have seen voltage beyond the PI cutoff point more than once, such as 146 volts. In that case an EMS is your only defense as 140 will instantly fry most microwave control circuits even if internally fused, and the fridge element will be toast along with the 5 amp fuse on the board itself, possibly even the entire board.
Ralph Cramden wrote:
Note that on a 30 amp RV the RV manufacturer uses a chunk of 10-2 Romex from the shore power connection to the main breaker. Also note that the entire system is installed by a bunch of hacks using the piecework method of compensation. If you look closely You'll probably find they over torqued all the breaker lugs stripping out the heads with a #2 square drive impact gun, and smashed the conductors so flat of you move them the slightest they'll snap right off. Also note the entire installation is backed up by RVIA certification........a nice shiny silver sticker......that is nothing more than a sticker LOL. If the installers did not over torque the connections, they probably left them loose.
No mention in this thread of high voltage conditions. I have experienced that at certain parks on occasion and have seen voltage beyond the PI cutoff point more than once, such as 146 volts. In that case an EMS is your only defense as 140 will instantly fry most microwave control circuits even if internally fused, and the fridge element will be toast along with the 5 amp fuse on the board itself, possibly even the entire board.
myredracer wrote:
Note that the NEC only covers permanently installed electrical wiring & components installed within RVs by RV manufacturers.
Note that the NEC only covers permanently installed electrical wiring & components installed within RVs by RV manufacturers.
Note that on a 30 amp RV the RV manufacturer uses a chunk of 10-2 Romex from the shore power connection to the main breaker. Also note that the entire system is installed by a bunch of hacks using the piecework method of compensation. If you look closely You'll probably find they over torqued all the breaker lugs stripping out the heads with a #2 square drive impact gun, and smashed the conductors so flat of you move them the slightest they'll snap right off. Also note the entire installation is backed up by RVIA certification........a nice shiny silver sticker......that is nothing more than a sticker LOL. If the installers did not over torque the connections, they probably left them loose.
No mention in this thread of high voltage conditions. I have experienced that at certain parks on occasion and have seen voltage beyond the PI cutoff point more than once, such as 146 volts. In that case an EMS is your only defense as 140 will instantly fry most microwave control circuits even if internally fused, and the fridge element will be toast along with the 5 amp fuse on the board itself, possibly even the entire board.
So you are saying STAY AWAY FROM RV'S because along with poor craftmanship you will get electrocuted.
myredracer wrote:
Curious what CGs/RV parks people stay at where you don't run into low voltage? Do you monitor voltage with a permanent voltmeter mounted inside?
Curious what CGs/RV parks people stay at where you don't run into low voltage? Do you monitor voltage with a permanent voltmeter mounted inside?
I monitor voltage with a semi-permanently installed digital volt meter and also have a permanently installed SurgeGuard that cuts off power if the voltage drops too low. That's never happened, nor have I ever seen it low enough on the meter to be concerned even during peak usage hours. We were at multiple state and national parks in Florida, Georgia, and South Carolina all through January, February, and March and never saw a reading below 115, with 120-125 most of the time. All of the private parks we overnighted at while in transit showed similar voltage ranges. Where we are right now in upstate NY, we normally see ~120, although we're only seeing 114 right now. That's likely related to temporary sub-station load sharing while the power company folks are making permanent repairs due to a recent wind storm that left ~46,000 customers without power across the state for several days.
Ralph Cramden wrote:
No mention in this thread of high voltage conditions. I have experienced that at certain parks on occasion and have seen voltage beyond the PI cutoff point more than once, such as 146 volts. In that case an EMS is your only defense as 140 will instantly fry most microwave control circuits even if internally fused, and the fridge element will be toast along with the 5 amp fuse on the board itself, possibly even the entire board.
No mention in this thread of high voltage conditions. I have experienced that at certain parks on occasion and have seen voltage beyond the PI cutoff point more than once, such as 146 volts. In that case an EMS is your only defense as 140 will instantly fry most microwave control circuits even if internally fused, and the fridge element will be toast along with the 5 amp fuse on the board itself, possibly even the entire board.
I've never seen a voltage higher than the 127 volt max Range B ANSI
utilization standard so far, and my SurgeGuard also cuts off for high voltage, although I don't recall off hand what the limit is for that.
Dutch_12078 wrote:
I've never seen a voltage higher than the 127 volt max Range B ANSI
utilization standard so far, and my SurgeGuard also cuts off for high voltage, although I don't recall off hand what the limit is for that.
Ralph Cramden wrote:
No mention in this thread of high voltage conditions. I have experienced that at certain parks on occasion and have seen voltage beyond the PI cutoff point more than once, such as 146 volts. In that case an EMS is your only defense as 140 will instantly fry most microwave control circuits even if internally fused, and the fridge element will be toast along with the 5 amp fuse on the board itself, possibly even the entire board.
No mention in this thread of high voltage conditions. I have experienced that at certain parks on occasion and have seen voltage beyond the PI cutoff point more than once, such as 146 volts. In that case an EMS is your only defense as 140 will instantly fry most microwave control circuits even if internally fused, and the fridge element will be toast along with the 5 amp fuse on the board itself, possibly even the entire board.
I've never seen a voltage higher than the 127 volt max Range B ANSI
utilization standard so far, and my SurgeGuard also cuts off for high voltage, although I don't recall off hand what the limit is for that.
The PI EMS high voltage threshold is 132. At one PA tate park with older wiring and shared pedestals, I have seen voltages higher than that threshold, and the park maintenance super and I can recreate it.
What it takes is for two RVs to be plugged into the common pedestal at the end of the circuit, and 4 or 5 RVs pulling high loads between said pedestal and the MDP in the middle of the circuit. They were unable to find what causes it, or correct it. It's not like they devoted a lot of time to it either. The voltage at the MDP read a constant 116 volts.
Ralph Cramden wrote:
The PI EMS high voltage threshold is 132. At one PA tate park with older wiring and shared pedestals, I have seen voltages higher than that threshold, and the park maintenance super and I can recreate it.
What it takes is for two RVs to be plugged into the common pedestal at the end of the circuit, and 4 or 5 RVs pulling high loads between said pedestal and the MDP in the middle of the circuit. They were unable to find what causes it, or correct it. It's not like they devoted a lot of time to it either. The voltage at the MDP read a constant 116 volts.
Dutch_12078 wrote:
I've never seen a voltage higher than the 127 volt max Range B ANSI
utilization standard so far, and my SurgeGuard also cuts off for high voltage, although I don't recall off hand what the limit is for that.
Ralph Cramden wrote:
No mention in this thread of high voltage conditions. I have experienced that at certain parks on occasion and have seen voltage beyond the PI cutoff point more than once, such as 146 volts. In that case an EMS is your only defense as 140 will instantly fry most microwave control circuits even if internally fused, and the fridge element will be toast along with the 5 amp fuse on the board itself, possibly even the entire board.
No mention in this thread of high voltage conditions. I have experienced that at certain parks on occasion and have seen voltage beyond the PI cutoff point more than once, such as 146 volts. In that case an EMS is your only defense as 140 will instantly fry most microwave control circuits even if internally fused, and the fridge element will be toast along with the 5 amp fuse on the board itself, possibly even the entire board.
I've never seen a voltage higher than the 127 volt max Range B ANSI
utilization standard so far, and my SurgeGuard also cuts off for high voltage, although I don't recall off hand what the limit is for that.
The PI EMS high voltage threshold is 132. At one PA tate park with older wiring and shared pedestals, I have seen voltages higher than that threshold, and the park maintenance super and I can recreate it.
What it takes is for two RVs to be plugged into the common pedestal at the end of the circuit, and 4 or 5 RVs pulling high loads between said pedestal and the MDP in the middle of the circuit. They were unable to find what causes it, or correct it. It's not like they devoted a lot of time to it either. The voltage at the MDP read a constant 116 volts.
Sounds like a high resistance neutral, lets get Gil back in here to analyze that scenario.
Ralph Cramden wrote:
What it takes is for two RVs to be plugged into the common pedestal at the end of the circuit, and 4 or 5 RVs pulling high loads between said pedestal and the MDP in the middle of the circuit. They were unable to find what causes it, or correct it. It's not like they devoted a lot of time to it either. The voltage at the MDP read a constant 116 volts.
What it takes is for two RVs to be plugged into the common pedestal at the end of the circuit, and 4 or 5 RVs pulling high loads between said pedestal and the MDP in the middle of the circuit. They were unable to find what causes it, or correct it. It's not like they devoted a lot of time to it either. The voltage at the MDP read a constant 116 volts.
That doesn't quite make sense and without being there is hard to speculate. Yes, perhaps a bad/loose neutral connection. Occam's razor = simplest explanation is usually the correct one (I watch too much Dr. Phil). I sure wouldn't rely on a CG to understand electrical stuff.
In some cases a poco can have high voltage lines that are very long before getting to an area/neighborhood of concentrated loads like in a rural setting for ex. They may set the fixed taps on the local transformer higher at +2.5% (123V) or +5% (126V) to prop up the voltage drop for when demand gets high. Private property owners with their own onsite high voltage step-down transformers can sometimes set the fixed taps higher to compensate for large fluctuating demand loads. Commercial CGs (unless quite small) typically have a bunch of pad-mounted transformers spread around a property and it's possible sometimes taps are intentionally set above 120 volts because there are very large swings in demand from winter to summer peaks. I've yet to see over 120 volts. Choosing a site closer to a transformer can sometimes reduce voltage drop. I've seen voltage go up and down like a yo-yo from overnight to dinner time but only once have had the EMS cut us off but now use an autoformer if I know voltage is low when we first hook up. We mostly stay in older CGs (Thousand Trails) and low voltage is common in them and always a possibility. Best have been casinos with a spare-no-expense electrical system.
I once designed a major expansion of a dairy plant on Vancouver Island before they got natural gas. At the time, milk in pouches was in vogue and they had a new machine that sealed them with an electric element which was voltage sensitive to get the req'd temp. After they started up the new plant the machine was spilling milk everywhere on the floor and they wanted to blame me. Turned out the poco had a very long high voltage line to the dairy's new substation and everyone in the city was dragging down the voltage at dinner time from electric stoves and electric heating - they had to do a major transmission line upgrade pdq. I hate low voltage!