Coast Resorts Open Roads Forum: Wfco amp test.. What are you pendant guys getting?

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Topic: Wfco amp test.. What are you pendant guys getting?

Posted By: lawrosa on 10/10/17 02:07pm

So the Wfco is known to not go into bulk mode.. I think this may be mis information I am not sure. On a phone call to wfco I spoke to a tech there, and he stated you may never see the 14.4 ( why they advertise this IDK)

But high amps low voltage is how it works per our discussion..

So running down the batts to 12.2 volts or so I flipped the breaker on the charge circuit and did some readings..

I have 15 ft # 6 wire from batts to wfco..

Start 12.2 volts.
two 75 ah grp 24's. ( I have a 3rd I put on line sometimes but this test was with the two only)

1.
32 amps to batts
13.59 volts @ converter ( charge wire)
13 volts @ batts

2.
15 minutes later
24.9 amps
13.65 @ conv
13 v @ batts

3.
35 minutes later
24.2amps
13.66 volts @conv
13.2 @ batts

4.
48 minutes
22.9 amps
13.67 @ conv
13.2 @ batts

5.
1 hr 20 minutes later
19.6 amps
13.68 @ conv
13.3 @ batts

6.
1hr 48 min
13.1 amps
13.68 @ conv
13.4 @ batts

7.
2 hrs 20 min
11.8 amps
13.69@ conv
13.4 v @ batts

8.
3 hrs
8.1 amps
13.7 volts @ conv
13.5 v @ batts

So I never saw the 14.4 and I guess thats not how this converter works. It did keep a constant amps for the first hour or so. ( This was the 24 amps I saw. Thats consistent with a bulk charge as I know it I guess.)

I mean would I gain anything by upgrading the lower end of the wfco to a unit that has the pendant, or is more transparent with this 14.4 volts everyone online talk about? I mean I understand it as I have solar, and charge in bulk @ 14.7 volts, and absorb at 14.5 for how ever long it was in bulk.. But my solar controller is only a 20 amp model. I do see 15 amps on sunny days.. But it will stay in bulk at a constant amps and not taper untill the 14.7 volts is reached.

Something to consider is on the coachmens there is a 30 amp breaker/resettable on the #6 wire under the camper. Upon putting a load on my inverter thinking I could get a 14.4 reading at the wfco, the wfco started dumping 40 plus amps to the batts.. Well the breaker kept doing an on/off thing until I removed that load..

So even though you all may have 55 amp converters, its not going to get through that breaker for long.. Im going to up that breaker to a 40 or 50 amp model..

Well thats where I am at... So I dont know what to do.. As I boon dock I want to charge on generator as fast as I can. I dont want to waste 200 buck upgrading the lower end to achieve the same results.

150 ah @ c/20 is 30 amps..
Add 3rd batt and 220 ah @ c/20 is 44 amps bulk.

I rely on the solar but I was in a shaded boondock area and only had 2 hours of sun, before the trees blocked it.

Upon starting the gen I ran it for 3 hours. I also ran the a/c and a TV. That was probably 20 amps, but the wfco should of supplied the 20 or 30 to charge the batts.

So the amps were pretty constant for the first hour or so..

I would like to know what the pendant guys get at the 14.4 volts in regards to amps.. And where do you see this 14.4 volts when your charging?

My wfco read 13.5 start and 13.7 at the end of my 3 hour test. ( but the amps were there)

On a side note too I tested the amps from the trucks 7 pin and voltages. I only did this for a brief 10 min test when the camper batts were @ 12.2 volts..

truck 7 pin.

15 amps
14.5 volts @ 7 pin
13v @ batts

Maybe ill do a test with just the truck tomorrow...

Mike L ... N.J.

2006 Silverado ext cab long bed. 3:42 rear. LM7 5.3 motor. 300 hp 350 ft lbs torgue @ 4000 rpms
2018 coachmen Catalina sbx 261bh

Posted By: SidecarFlip on 10/10/17 02:19pm

You mean someone there speaks English? I'm amazed.

2015 Backpack SS1500
1997 Ford 7.3 OBS 4x4 CC LB

Posted By: lawrosa on 10/10/17 02:38pm

So I upgraded the breaker under the camper to a 40 amp model.. I ran the batts down and did another test with the wfco.. I was able to crank 60 amps out of that thing... wow.

This was running batts down to 12.2 and first turning on converter..

I did have a small load on the batts to see how high I could get it without tripping the new 40 amp breaker..

[image]

With that said and load off it held the amps pretty good once it settled in at 40 amps or so..

[image]

Upont my testing also I tried plugging the truck in. I would get an additional 10 amps or so from truck to add to the wfco amps..

Here it shows 50 amps with truck idling and wfco.

[image]

Two hours exactly of this from 12.2 batts ( truck and wfco) I produced a hydrometer reading of. 1265. I was down to 15 amps charge rate and batt voltage at 13.5 -13.6..

[image]

So If voltage lowers for amps this wfco may be at the 14.4 volts but will not show it anywhere.. Im getting the amps..

So as stated I wonder what amps the pendant guys are getting...

Posted By: lawrosa on 10/10/17 02:41pm

SidecarFlip wrote:

You mean someone there speaks English? I'm amazed.

Yes I spoke with john an 8 year veteran there. He said how the wfco is misunderstood and explained its operation to me.

They are in Indiana or Illinois I believe..

* This post was edited 10/10/17 03:26pm by lawrosa *

Posted By: MrWizard on 10/10/17 04:27pm

never saw a wfco with pendant

i had a wfco deck mount with 'boost button' on the face of the deck mount

it worked,

i overheated and fried the wfco, but it was my fault

i was on shore power, and plugged and electric heater into inverter feed outlet
inverter running 1200w heater, wfco trying to supply inverter and batteries

I can explain it to you.
But I Can Not understand it for you !
....

Connected using T-Mobile Home internet and Visible Phone service
1997 F53 Bounder 36s

Posted By: shastagary on 10/10/17 04:41pm

if you haven't found the thread on modifying the wfco to force the converter into boost mode. this is one of them. how to force the converter into boost mode

Posted By: lawrosa on 10/10/17 04:50pm

MrWizard wrote:

No.. I know I dont have the pendant.. The wfco is going into boost mode IMO..

Im getting 40 amps of so..

What im wondering is what amps are the guys with the pendants getting on thier PD brand converters..

I ask because I too may of drank the cool aid to upgrade my wfco converter when its totally un neccessry..

The wfco seems to work as designed and why waste $200 upgrading just so I can see 14.4 volts with my tester.. ( Do any on the pendant guys actually see 14.4 volts?)

Its my assumption the wfco holds amps longer and the PD's taper too quick... Seems the wfco will always win...

* This post was edited 10/10/17 05:14pm by lawrosa *

Posted By: lawrosa on 10/10/17 04:52pm

shastagary wrote:

if you haven't found the thread on modifying the wfco to force the converter into boost mode. this is one of them. how to force the converter into boost mode

I read that..Something Im not going to attempt because of the misconception on what boost mode actually is doing...

Posted By: Old-Biscuit on 10/10/17 05:31pm

55A rating does NOT mean charger section will push 55A to batteries.

55A rating is the Converter Load capability rating......charging section AND DC Supply for dist panel

Is it time for your medication or mine?

2007 DODGE 3500 QC SRW 5.9L CTD In-Bed 'quiet gen'
2007 HitchHiker II 32.5 UKTG 2000W Xantex Inverter
US NAVY------USS Decatur DDG31

Posted By: lawrosa on 10/10/17 06:05pm

Old-Biscuit wrote:

55A rating does NOT mean charger section will push 55A to batteries.

55A rating is the Converter Load capability rating......charging section AND DC Supply for dist panel

What I know is you can get full rated amps to batts. As my amp meter shows me pushing 60 amps through. That was with small load on inverter as I stated. I did that to test the new inline 40 amp breaker I replaced . ( it was 30 amp previous and would trip out at 40 amps or so during my tests)

During the tests I ran 120 volts loads such as a/c and refeer with no amp drop.

I believe if I ran DC loads, the heat blower and water pump the amps would go down from whats going in the batts.. I may try that tomorrow while I have the amp meter.

But what major DC loads are really in the camper? 7 amps on heater, and maybe 4 - 5 on water pump? So its irrelevant IMO if you can still get 30 amps.

c/20 charge rate per dekka..

220 ... 20% = 44 amps

Or just my two batts 150 ah + 20 % = 30 amps..

Posted By: Ralph Cramden on 10/10/17 06:17pm

SidecarFlip wrote:

You mean someone there speaks English? I'm amazed.

Me too lol.

Do yourself a favor. Rip out the DC side of the WFCO and replace it with Boondocker or Progressive Dynamics direct fit replacement from Bestconverter.com The WFCO will go into bulk mode someday, and when it does it will boil off the electrolyte ruining your batteries. The manufacturers use them because they are cheap, not because they are the better than sliced bread.

Posted By: BFL13 on 10/10/17 06:45pm

OP, you are really mixed up as to "Bulk" meaning. Or "Boost" for that matter.

The converter can do its 55 amps or a bit more like 60ish, at 13.6v. That is not the "Boost" you are looking for. Your batteries need to "gas" to get fully charged and " gassing voltage" is 14.x, not 13.6 even close.

What you want is to get that 60 amps at 14.x volts. To get that with a "real" 55 amp charger, you would need to connect it to the batteries with about 3 ft (one way distance--both wires being 3 ft) of #4 wire. There is no way on Earth you can get near that with 15ft of thinner wire!!!! Not even with a "real" charger.

OK, so what to do. IMO, keep the existing WFCO as your converter when on shore power. It runs everything just fine at 13.6v. and it will float a charged battery just fine too.

BUT for battery charging to full and for doing 50-90s off-grid with a generator you need a separate charger that is a real one, that will get those batts done up as soon as possible. You can buy a converter and make it a portable charger you clamp onto the battery posts and plug it into the gen (or the rig if it has a built in gen making the 120v)

I like these things and use them myself, but you can modify any brand converter with wire clamps in its terminals. This one is a bit more expensive because it has the adjustable voltage feature, which is very worthwhile. Don't worry about the 75 amps on the two or three 24s. They will love it if low, or else just will not take that many if at a higher SOC starting the recharge. --The batts protect themselves as needed.

http://www.boatandrvaccessories.com/products/powermax-pmbc-75adj-converter

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on Ford E350-460-7.5 Gas EFI
Photo in Profile
2. 1991 Bighorn 9.5ft Truck Camper on 2003 Chev 2500HD 6.0 Gas
See Profile for Electronic set-ups for 1. and 2.

Posted By: lawrosa on 10/10/17 07:12pm

Quote:

The WFCO will go into bulk mode someday, and when it does it will boil off the electrolyte ruining your batteries.

How so? Do you think its in bulk mode cranking in 40 plus amps?

How will I boil off the batt electrolyte? 40 amps is 40 amps.

Its a misconception to change the lower end is what I am trying to show. ( IMO) And I believe the PD units taper amps too fast where the wfco hold longer.. ( from readings)

So I ask anyone to show what amps they get with thier PD's.

Maybe I shouldnt bother asking what people are actually getting out of the Pd's and such..

I think this guy upgraded and got similar results. So he upgraded his wiring to 3 gauge...

If you read the comments

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6wQm4Y3iWnU&t=2s

Posted By: lawrosa on 10/10/17 07:20pm

BFL13 wrote:

If I went that route I would just get an IOTA that does 14.7 bulk and 14.2 absorp and put in the passthrough with 4 ft # 2 cable. And plug the gen into that for charging...

http://www.iotaengineering.com/dlsx.htm

Posted By: time2roll on 10/10/17 07:41pm

I have read several reports of WFCO going 5 to 10 amps above rating if you have enough battery and actually get boost mode. Mine did before it decided to just remain in boost indefinitely.

PD seems to sag a bit and the full amp rating is not at 14.4 volts but rather 13.2 so get 10+ amps rating higher than you expect.

IOTA by all reports I have seen is regulated right to the rated amps at any voltage. 14.7 boost is a bit of a misnomer as it will shift to bulk within 15 minutes of exceeding 14.6. Although I do like the IOTA program except the float seems a bit high for a hot climate.

Powermax drops similar to IOTA but goes down to 13.6 volts. Or you can get the manually controlled version. But if going manual I would sooner have a Meanwell or similar adjustable power supply.

2001 F150 SuperCrew
2006 Keystone Springdale 249FWBHLS
675w Solar pictures back up

Posted By: BFL13 on 10/10/17 07:44pm

Good! --yes do that! (except as follows) It will work.

Note that the Iota only stays at the higher voltage until the batts get to 14.6, which can be a short time if they are starting at say 60% SOC, then it drops to 14.2. for 8 hours. IMO 14.2 is a bit low, especially when the batts want 14.8 for their Absorption Stage like most deep cycles do now. 14.4 is too low even.

The Iota has no stage changing remote either, just a remote ( IQ4) that enables it to do the three stages instead of just one 13.6 stage.
With the PD you could keep hitting the boost button to keep it at the higher voltage for Absorption.

I much prefer the adjustable voltage PowerMax, but you could choose a Randy type (bestconverters.com) 14.8 PD (not adjustable), as second best choice for the same price [emoticon]

(Ok I am a PM fan. Others here are PD fans. Shoot me! [emoticon]

)

I would say the Iota is third choice for the reasons given.

Posted By: red31 on 10/10/17 07:52pm

That's the difference between 14.4 and 13.6
Note the 20A 'smart' charge @ 14+v exceeds the 13.6v/35A wfco.

What does East penn suggest, 30% of C20 or 150*.3 = 45A
45A charge until battery V = 14.7v
hold 14.7 @ battery for hrs
float 13.8v
http://www.eastpennmanufacturing.com/wp-........able-Energy-Charging-Parameters-1913.pdf

there is always this from PD, fast means high current to 14+v, hold 14+v
[image]

14.4v boost, 13.6 'normal', 13.2 float

WFCO theroy of operation:
"If the converter observes no significant variations in current draw for approximately 44 continuous hours, it will drop the output of the converter from 13.6V to 13.2V."

Ask why 44 hrs before float.

* This post was edited 10/10/17 08:37pm by red31 *

Posted By: ktmrfs on 10/10/17 07:57pm

generally you will seldom see max current at max voltage, certainly not on initial connection on a reasonably large AH (100+) reasonably discharged battery. On a reasonably discharged battery the converter starts charging as a constant current device with a current limit, 40, 50 60 or more amps and the voltage at the battery will rise to whatever is needed to support that level of current. Often this initial voltage is in the 13V range. as the battery charges up most of the converters can't hold max current as the approach the max voltage and current drops as the voltage rises to near the constant voltage threshold and they go into a constant voltage mode, 14.x V which is what the battery wants to finish charge.

As an example, I have a bank of 4 T-125's. with them near 50 percent discharged I can hit them with my PD45A unit in the panel and my 60A unit in thge pass through. Initial current will often be in the 110A range, but the voltage will still be in the low 13V range initially. It takes another hour or so before voltage starts to rise much. I would guess current would exceed 200A to get initial voltage anywhere near 14V initially.

That said the OP is one of the very very few that I've know that was able to get the WFCO into the constant current mode. most I've seen almost immediately drop into the 13.6 constant voltage mode. PD, Iota etc. behave much better.

Iota seems to be one of the best that is able to hold the constant current mode to near the 14.X constant voltage mode.

2011 Keystone Outback 295RE
2004 14' bikehauler with full living quarters
2015.5 Denali 4x4 CC/SB Duramax/Allison
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Posted By: time2roll on 10/10/17 08:11pm

lawrosa wrote:

MrWizard wrote:

No you are not in boost.

You will see 14.4 volts in boost and the amps will remain high for much longer and charge the battery much faster. 14.4 is like a rocket compared to 13.6 volts.

With plenty of good solar you may not ever need boost.

Posted By: Cydog15 on 10/10/17 08:44pm

The same internet experts saying the same thing until it changes. I'd call Bestconverter and get the job done right. They have all of them to choose from.

Posted By: lawrosa on 10/10/17 08:56pm

That said the OP is one of the very very few that I've know that was able to get the WFCO into the constant current mode. most I've seen almost immediately drop into the 13.6 constant voltage mode. wrote:

Can you explain this better?

So the comments I have read above even the PD's show a low voltage when initially plugged in with higher amps .. As theory goes high amps lower voltage.

Even though I do not see said 14.4 at the converter terminals it may be in that 14.4 mode right? Because of said amps. This may just be the algorithm of the wfco.

And the wfco will hold said amps until it drops out... Im thinking when batts reach 13.4? volts, hench why you dont see the batts reach 14.4..

Now when talking to the wfco tech I brought up the same point to him. I tried to compare it to my solar..

Mu solar will charge ar bulk 14.7 until the batts reach 14.7. The amps will stay maxed at what the solar can produce with the controller. With mine its 20 amps max. Common I see is 17 amps. Then the solar will go to absorp stage and amps then taper.

Tech stated the wfco's dont work like that

And I understand the 14.7 thing will charge faster.

But is it true say the wfco charging at 30 amps 13.6 vs the PD at 14.4 20 amps ( lower volts = more amps) it would be a wash?

Posted By: BFL13 on 10/10/17 09:00pm

Let's not confuse charger voltage with battery voltage. You start off at battery voltage of say 12.1. It spikes to 13.x, then slowly rises until eventually hours later it (almost) reaches charger voltage and so there is no spread between them and so no more amps.

But at first, the charger is at its rated voltage such as 14.8 while the batt has spiked to 13.x. So you get lots of amps with that much spread.

(You can see during bulk stage with the battery still at 13.x that the charger is going full blast, by using a Kill-A -Watt. This shows the charger is pulling full rated watts as VA from the gen or other supply. Do not think the charger is also at 13.x but just a little higher.)

The charger is current limited, so the amps are clipped to that so you get constant amps at that limit until the battery voltage rises close enough to the charger's voltage, that the spread is too small to make that many amps, so amps taper.

The absorption constant voltage stage is mis-named because the charger is still at its 14.8 but now the amps are tapering but the battery voltage is still slowly rising--or no amps would flow.

Amps stop at the very end when battery voltage gets (almost) the same as charger voltage. Actually absorption can go to infinity, so you just have to cut it off and let the rest happen on Float.

The big thing is that the charger needs to be at 14.8 vs 13.8 right from the start, so there is lots of spread between it and the battery's voltage, AND to get the battery above "gassing voltage" for the absorption stage.

BTW, I have had my single stage 13.8v Parallax 7355 doing 56 amps at its 13.8v. I had it backing up the batts which were being drawn down by the inverter sucking 98 amps. Short fat wires so no issues about voltage sag and all that.

The converter was acting as a power supply and was able to do its rated amps no sweat. That is a completely different thing from using it as a battery charger, facing huge resistance and only able to do less than rated amps at first and tapering from there too.

So, don't get all confused.

Posted By: lawrosa on 10/10/17 09:01pm

red31 wrote:

east penn states c/20 --- 20%... The 30% is for a monoblock design.

Those charts above , wfco vs 20 amp charger, mean nothing IMO as anyone can make a chart.. I would need testing data to prove anything...

Posted By: lawrosa on 10/10/17 09:17pm

BFL13 wrote:

OK. Its just I dont want to waste $200 bucks on a new charger lower end unit if what I have perfors the same.

As I said the wfco and my truck idling for 2 hours took the batts from 12.2 volts to a 1265 hydrometer reading. Starting at 50 amps and working its way to about 10 amps when it reached 13.6 volts at the batts..

I can do more testing of the wfco but I need to know what to look for when testing..

Id also like to compare readings of someone with a PD under similar conditions.. Wire size, length, amp readings, voltages, etc..

I know, I have too much time on my hands....LOL... Im a little OCD....LOL

Posted By: time2roll on 10/10/17 09:33pm

lawrosa wrote:

But is it true say the wfco charging at 30 amps 13.6 vs the PD at 14.4 20 amps ( lower volts = more amps) it would be a wash?

Depends on the rating but no PD-55 will be sagging to 20 amps if the batteries need the charge. WFCO at 13.6 will taper off the charge faster every time. Once in absorption mode it is not about the converter but the voltage and the battery. If the same rated WFCO puts out more amps it will only be for a few minutes.

Posted By: ktmrfs on 10/10/17 09:36pm

BFL13 wrote:

do some voltage measuring AT the converter, in bulk mode, voltage will be the battery voltage plus line drop. the converter is in constant CURRENT mode. It supplies the current regardless of what the voltage is. (up to 14.xV) converter output voltage may be in the 13V range even with 60+A. with a single battery it may be that converter output voltage is near 14.x v due to battery internal resistance. But that is not necessarily the case with a large battery bank.

the problem with the WFCO is it often goes out of constant current mode very quickly into the constant voltage 13.6V mode which will not deliver much current.

now as the battery charges you want the current to remain constant till the battery is near 14.5V or so, then go into a constant VOLTAGE mode, and hold that voltage till the current drops to a few % of rated AH.

then drop down to the 13.6ish volts

Posted By: ktmrfs on 10/10/17 09:45pm

lawrosa wrote:

In your case it appears the WFCO is acting like a PD or similar. when the batteries are discharged it starts in a constant current mode giving 30 amps to the battery and then holds it till the battery voltage rises to near 14.X V and the goes to constant voltage to finish charging. then hopefully will drop back to 13.6V to keep the battery charged.

Now a PD 40, 50, 60 etc A unit would do similar. you'd see the PD rate current or near it initially, dropping some as it gets near 14.6V.

Now, many with the WFCO have found it NEVER goes into the constant current mode as it should or they drop out pretty quick and goes to the 13.6V constant voltage mode with low current. It immediately thinks the battery is fully charged and goes to the 13.6 constant voltage mode. in that case it can't supply much currrent to the battery, especially if the run between the battery and converter is very long with the typical #6 wire. what I have seen is 10-15A or so.

as an example one camper friend's 4 GC batteries were way down, around 40 percent SOC, and the WFCO would immediately go in the 13.6V constant voltage mode giving a whopping 15A charging current. I pulled my 60A PD out of the pass through and we hooked it up to the battery bank and it immediately started stuffing 60A into the bank and continued for several hours. Initial voltage was still only arou 13.4V with the 60A, it's constant current mode. gradually as expected battery voltage rose, current started to drop and when current was around 25A it finally reached 14.6 volts and went into constant voltage mode to finish the charge.

* This post was edited 10/10/17 09:51pm by ktmrfs *

Posted By: BFL13 on 10/10/17 10:39pm

Yes, the voltage on each end of the wires between charger and battery is the same except for voltage drop. However, the charger is at 14.8 and the battery is just getting up from that 12.1 it was at the start.

The battery voltage appears to "spike" to 13.x, but that is just the voltage "middle-ing" between the two voltages. The charger is still at full power.

Here is what happens again:

55 amp charger not on battery, start charger, set it to 14.8v, and meter shows 14.8v at the charger's terminals. Battery is at 12.2, say.

Connect charger to battery--Kill-A-Watt between charger and 120v power supply. (Honda gen 127v no load--less with charger as load)

124.7v, 11.06 amps ( both AC) 980 watts, 1383VA PF 0.70 Charger DC amps 56.8a (what the battery is taking in as seen by Trimetric), battery voltage (and charger terminals too) showing 13.7v

So the 55 amper is doing full power at its 14.8v setting as seen by the VA it requires. If it were at a lower voltage it would not be sucking anywhere near that much power from the gen. That is why guys with Honda 1000s have to dial down their converters to 13.8 at first so it will not conk out the gen, until the battery comes up to the point where they can hit the Charge Wizard to go 14.4. By then the battery doesn't accept so many amps at 14.4 so it can now run on the 1000.

If you immediately disconnect the charger from the battery you will get 14.8v at the charger and still 12.2 at the battery (if you kill off the surface charge)

Too much confusion

Posted By: lawrosa on 10/10/17 11:36pm

Interesting...

I have a gen, 2400 watt, and a kilowatt meter.Id like to do a test to see when this comes out of constant current and into constant voltage.. How would I know.. The wfco wants 980 watts AFAIK...

And as stated my wfco may be in a constant current mode, but at no time do I see 14.4 volts anywhere. As in my first post I show voltages at batts and converter..

Its clearly dropping out of 14.4 constant current mode at some point... but when?

As far as the pd,s the few you tube vids I see show the higher voltage at the converter, but I believe in those cases the batts are pretty much fully charged..

So its vids like this that I have trouble with..

7:45 mark.

This guy states his 4 6 volt batts were down 12.2. He says he used his old converter as a test ( wfco) and was getting 11 amps. Converter 20 ft away.

Then he states he plugged in the new PD converter and was getting 27 amps... ( LOL converter is 2 ft from batterys)

Then he states he pushed the wizard button and got 40 amps..

Trouble is these PD's would go in boost without pushing the button ( with 12.2 batts) so his video is flawed..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6kgF_RlZyR4

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6kgF_RlZyR4

Well I dont want to beat a dead horse... lol.. Ill do some more testing...reading

Posted By: MEXICOWANDERER on 10/11/17 12:02am

Time is money when using a generator to recharge a battery. If a charger does not have a correct voltage profile you pay for it in wasted fuel. With a manual Megawatt, a 36 amp model I guarantee I can fully recharge a battery in One - Third the time it takes your WFCO. With my big manual charger I slice twenty minutes more. No brand of automatic charger can do this but trying to make a WFCO into an optimum charger is like hiring a one-armed brick-layer. Or buying Lucas electrical parts to gain reliability. An oxymoron with oak-leaf-clusters and diamonds.

Posted By: MrWizard on 10/11/17 12:29am

get the batteries LOW enough and they will take upteen amps at 13v

that is NOT BOOST

BOOST is getting the battery voltage to 14.4 at what ever amps they will accept
and a full charge is when you get the batteries accepting about 1 amp PER battery or less

so when you get (3) batteries in parallel at 14.8v taking less than 3 amps
they are fully charged

bulk is high amps, boost is getting enough voltage to actually get to a fully charged condition

and getting a full charge is when they accept less than 1% of AMpHr capacity at full gassing voltage, which does shift slightly with ambient temperature

the peak voltage 14.4 to 15.0v varies with the construction of the battery, who mfg it, and for what design purpose

Posted By: lawrosa on 10/11/17 12:56am

I think theres two battery lugs at the wfco. I was told the wfco only accepts #6 size. If there is another lug I have some extra #6 wire. Maybe ill run another line to the battery and see what happens...

Posted By: lawrosa on 10/11/17 03:19am

BFL good read from 2008....lol

https://www.rv.net/forum/index.cfm/fuseaction/thread/tid/22180733/srt/pa/pging/1/page/15.cfm

Posted By: red31 on 10/11/17 06:11am

higher amps from higher voltage. WFCO not designed to use higher voltage for normal charging.

http://wfcoelectronics.com/oem-bulletin-archives/
april 16 issue
"For those cases when the battery charge drops significantly due to prolonged disuse, poor maintenance, or significantly heavy system overloads, our 14.4 Volt Fast Charge (Bulk) Mode kicks in. Our Fast Charge delivers a maximum four-hour charge "

From their Their theroy of operation. "preset level"
http://wfcoelectronics.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/03/WFCO-Theory-of-Operation-v2.pdf
"When the microprocessor detects the preset voltage level, it will boost the converter voltage to 14.4 VDC. The increased voltage will help the battery charge faster, while still providing power to the DC appliances in the RV.
In Bulk Mode, it may not be possible to observe the 14.4 VDC output because of the voltage-current relationship. To measure the 14.4 VDC, reduce some DC loads while monitoring the voltage at the converter output. As the DC loads are removed, the voltage will begin to climb until 14.4 VDC (nominal) is shown on the meter.
As the battery continues to charge, the current drawn by the battery will gradually decrease. WFCO Converters are designed to drop out of Bulk Mode when the total amperage-draw from the converter reaches a preset point, indicating the battery is charged. If the amperage-draw stays above the preset point, the converter will stay in Bulk Mode for a maximum of four hours."

1. Wfco not designed to go into bulk for normal charging, only for abused and heavily discharged batts.

2. if it does go into bulk it does not stay there.

3. Wfco is clear their product is sub par as battery charger if getting to FULL and/or fast charging is a goal.

* This post was edited 10/11/17 06:19am by red31 *

Posted By: BFL13 on 10/11/17 06:19am

lawrosa wrote:

BFL good read from 2008....lol

https://www.rv.net/forum/index.cfm/fuseaction/thread/tid/22180733/srt/pa/pging/1/page/15.cfm

https://www.rv.net/forum/index.cfm/fusea......../tid/22180733/srt/pa/pging/1/page/15.cfm

In the above blurb from WFCO they are confusing Boost and Absorption this time. The "preset" drop out for deemed "full" is actually when it drops out of the absorption stage of the battery.

Most chargers do that around the 97% SOC point and let the battery complete the recharge during the subsequent Float. It is not a WFCO fault. Absorption can go to infinity unless you cut it off somewhere.

What WFCO says is that their 14.4 Boost will run for 4 hours or less if it hits the preset. During that four hours, the battery does Bulk and Absorption. If the absorption gets the amps tapered down to the preset, the converter stops its Boost at 14.4 and drops to 13.6.

The problem with the WFCO is getting it to trigger its Boost at 14.4 with that 13.2v trigger. It is all about that initial spike in voltage once the charger gets on the battery. If the spike stays below 13.2v, it will go into Boost.

That means the battery and wiring from it to the WFCO must have low R, which means the battery must be low R and the wiring be low R. The spike also relates to the size of the battery bank in AH (bigger means lower R and vv) wrt to the initial charging amps. Higher percentage of amps to AH means a higher spike.

So to keep that spike from going over 13.2 you should not hit the smaller bank with a bigger amp WFCO. You also need short fat wiring and no loose connections to keep the R down that the WFCO "sees"

That is why time2roll advises to use a 35 amp WFCO on a small battery bank instead of your 55 amper, because when the small bank is down to 50% and so needs a recharge, the 35 amper might not spike the batts above 13.2, whereas the 55 amper will. Especially if the wiring is long and thin. Note--that "might" work--it all depends on the total set up.

I don't blame the WFCO as such, but the way it works is not suitable for most RVs where you just can't get that spike to be under the magic 13.2 trigger.

* This post was edited 10/11/17 06:44am by BFL13 *

Posted By: time2roll on 10/11/17 08:47am

lawrosa wrote:

Its clearly dropping out of 14.4 constant current mode at some point... but when?

Your WFCO is never in boost.

There is no constant current mode. There is a maximum current and a maximum voltage. The battery determines the rest.

When you start charging, the voltage at the WFCO is above 13.2 volts so you will never see boost mode. You may still see max amps for a short time at 13.6 volts. Then it just tapers off to a trickle charge.

Posted By: 12thgenusa on 10/11/17 09:39am

A lot of misinformation and half truths on this thread. The WFCO as installed by most manufacturers does perform poorly as most posts indicate. If it is installed close to the batteries with adequate wiring it will indeed perform to its designed specs.

Here is my experience after moving the WFCO from under the fridge, 30 wire feet away from the batteries and connected with #8 wiring to a location just above the batteries and connected with large wiring.
Link to WFCO mod

I did not record the voltage during the post mod testing but it responds as ktmrfs describes in this thread.

It outperforms its rated amperage 65a vs 55a.
It will remain in boost (constant current) for 4 hours if battery bank will accept it.
It will revert to float if the electrical system is undisturbed for 48 hours.

To the OP, based on the results you are getting I wouldn't recommend replacing the WFCO.

* This post was edited 10/11/17 09:48am by 12thgenusa *

2007 Tundra DC 4X4 5.7, Alcan custom rear springs, 2009 Cougar 245RKS, 370 watts ET solar,
Rogue MPT-3024, 440 AH GC2 bank, ProWatt 2000,100% LED lighting

Posted By: BFL13 on 10/11/17 09:56am

The PD does exactly the same as the WFCO wrt that four hours.

The PD without being Charge Wizarded will go into boost on a low battery. How low and what triggers that I don't know, but it won't if it is facing high R from a small battery bank or long thin wire or both. there is no four hours with that. It just gets the batts up to about 97% SOC and goes to 13.6.

If it did not go into boost then you can hit the CW boost button and get your 14.4 (or 14.8 on the ones with that) Now it will stay at 14.4 on the timer for four hours, while the battery does bulk and absorption. If the absorption stage gets down to 97%ish SOC before the four hours is up, the PD will drop to 13.6 "early" If the battery is not to 97% SOC yet, it will stay in boost until the four hour timer drops it to 13.6.

If the latter, you must hit the CW boost button again to continue the absorption stage until it does get to 97% SOC and drops to 13.6 to finish the recharge to 100% some day.

However, your Iota without its IQ4 will not do any boost ever. It is a single stage 13.6. With the IQ4 is is now a three stage but you cannot trigger boost with it once the converter drops from 14.8 to 14.2 It does what it does. It can be just fine as a charging profile depending on what you need for a charging profile. Or not.

The original PowerMax was a WFCO clone under licence, so it had that same 13.2 trigger for going into boost or not. PowerMax got away from that real quick and set their own design with its own profile. You get boost every time same as an Iota for 15 minutes regardless of the battery SOC. But, same as the Iota, if the battery was low to start with, it stays in boost longer until Vabs is reached. It then drops to 13.6 instead of the Iota 14.2. That will make it take longer to do the absorption stage at 13.6 instead of 14.2, but both those voltages are too low for fast charging off a generator ideally.

So for that reason, after much arm-twisting, PowerMax came out with their adjustable voltage model so you can control it all to suit any charging profile you want. They believe they have done folks that want that a huge favour--and they have! [emoticon]

Meanwhile the vast majority of their customers are quite happy with the standard charge profile of the standard three stage models, just as most RVers only ever want their converter at 13.6 for when on shore power all their camping time so they don't care about any of this battery stuff [emoticon]

Posted By: road-runner on 10/11/17 11:54am

12thgenusa wrote:

The WFCO as installed by most manufacturers does perform poorly as most posts indicate. If it is installed close to the batteries with adequate wiring it will indeed perform to its designed specs.

This is the correct answer, except I'd add that if a higher current wfco converter is installed with a smaller battery bank, that will also result in no boost mode. The wfco technique of sensing the voltage after supplying power is IMO a better system than the PD technique of sensing before power is applied. The problem is that it's incompatible with the wimpy converter-to-battery wiring in most RVs, resulting in the "better" technique ending up being worse than the less-better technique. The other problem with wfco converters is their historically high failure rate.

2009 Fleetwood Icon

Posted By: lawrosa on 10/11/17 03:26pm

I assume this is the recommended converter?

http://www.bestconverter.com/PD4655MBA-W........udes-4600-Remote_p_616.html#.Wd6K-WhSyUk

Im draining batts down now and added a wire parrelel to the existing.

Its #8 wire. In preliminary testing I get more amps through the #8 then the #6. I believe thats because there is a 40 amp breaker inline on the #6 and it adds resistance...

Ill let you know if I get a bulk of 14.4 readings anywhere. Ill test for two hours or so.

Question..

If its in bulk mode, how will I know?

Lower amps more constant?
Should I see 14.4 at the converters charge wires?
How will I know when it drops out of bulk mode? ( if it even goes in..)ie: will the amps gor from say 24 amps to 30 amps when it changes to 13.6?

* This post was edited 10/11/17 03:33pm by lawrosa *

Posted By: time2roll on 10/11/17 04:14pm

That 4655 converter is fine.

You will know in 120 seconds if you go to boost. You'll just know.

Converter will drop to 13.6 when boost mode is done.

Boost, normal, float are converter terms relating to voltage.

Bulk, absorption, float are battery charging terms. You can go through all these stages at any of the converter voltage modes.

Posted By: lawrosa on 10/11/17 04:53pm

So I added the wire. Im 1 hr into test. Got 60 plus amps constant for an hour so far. I have video. Converter now holding at 14.5 volts. I am waiting to see when it drops out to 13.6 mode..

I will post complete data later..

Posted By: time2roll on 10/11/17 06:53pm

Now that is a bit different from the first data [emoticon]

I assume you are plotting how to pull #4 wire and install an 80 amp breaker.

Posted By: BFL13 on 10/11/17 07:25pm

The OP is not out of the woods just yet! [emoticon]

What drove me crazy with my first PowerMax, which was a WFCO clone with that 13.2 trigger thing, was you had to get the batts so low to get it to do Boost same as with a WFCO.

I complained to the PM boss, saying, "Whyinheck can't I recharge from 60% SOC in Boost? Why do I have to run the batts down even more to below 50% before I can recharge them back up again in Boost? This is beyond stupid!!!!"

The PowerMax boss paid attention. [emoticon]

Soon, it was fixed so you could now start off with the batts at 60% or whatever, and the converter would kick off in Boost no matter what. (Same as Iota)

The OP appears to have solved his WFCO issue for when the batts are low enough, but is still stuck with that 13.2 "issue." If you want to recharge with a "Boost" voltage when the batts are not so low as that at first, then you still need a different charger.

Posted By: lawrosa on 10/11/17 07:33pm

BFL13 wrote:

The OP is not out of the woods just yet! [emoticon]

Yes I will test that down the road..

Interesting read here on theroy of operation.. Says you can charge in 3 hours in normal absorption mode... May be true as my first test was successful somewhat..

http://wfcoelectronics.com/wp-content/up......../2016/03/WFCO-Theory-of-Operation-v2.pdf

But now that I got it in boost it is still there after 3 1/2 hours..

Its the 3 hour 45 min mark so I will go check.. I am down to 9 amps in but still in bulk.,.. ( I dont know why and what the trigger is..)

Ill post details later..

Posted By: lawrosa on 10/11/17 07:41pm

Im probably almost 100% charged being down to 7 amps at 14.5 volts @ batts?

Im 14.61 at converter...

It will be 4 hours in 5 minutes..

Posted By: BFL13 on 10/11/17 07:48pm

No, you are down to 9 amps still in "Boost" You are also down there in "Absorption" (amps tapering), (Sigh!) You are not in "Bulk" you are in "Absorption", but the converter is still at its "Boost" voltage of 14.4 (Sigh!)

If it does not get down enough in amps to trigger its drop to 13.6 after four hours and it does drop, you have to reset by unplugging its 120v (wait a minute to let the caps drain) and start over for another four hour run--but that run will no doubt end before second four hours as the amps get down enough to trigger the drop to 13.6.

Posted By: time2roll on 10/11/17 07:52pm

You need to be under 1 percent of capacity to call tip top full.
You are 170 amp/hrs? That is 1.7 amps.

I think you are approaching 95 percent.

Posted By: lawrosa on 10/11/17 08:09pm

time2roll wrote:

You need to be under 1 percent of capacity to call tip top full.
You are 170 amp/hrs? That is 1.7 amps.

I think you are approaching 95 percent.

OK just kicked off at the 4 hour mark. I have it recorded. I have to check my video and post the results in detail. I think it was down to 7 amps.

I used the two batts @ 75 ah each. 150 ah..

Give me a few I will post text data. I will maybe do a you tube vid later tonight of each measurement...

Posted By: BFL13 on 10/11/17 08:24pm

Yes, it shut down from the 4 hr timer, but you were not finished the absorption stage yet. So un-plug the 120v, wait a couple minutes, plug 120v back in and---oops it won't go back into Boost, because the batts are too high in SOC.

You have to hope the batts will eventually reach 100% at 13.6 (don't count on it!)

This is the beauty of the PowerMax adjustable. It stays at your version of "Boost" (might be 14.8 or when colder 15.1, whatever) until YOU decide when to drop it to 13.6 (or any other voltage depending on temperature).

The PD Charge Wiz will let you do more time at Boost too, but no adjustments up or down for temperature.

Posted By: lawrosa on 10/11/17 09:26pm

Ok old results re-posted...

Start 12.2 volts.
two 75 ah grp 24's. ( I have a 3rd I put on line sometimes but this test was with the two only)

1.
32 amps to batts
13.59 volts @ converter ( charge wire)
13 volts @ batts

2.
15 minutes later
24.9 amps
13.65 @ conv
13 v @ batts

3.
35 minutes later
24.2amps
13.66 volts @conv
13.2 @ batts

4.
48 minutes
22.9 amps
13.67 @ conv
13.2 @ batts

5.
1 hr 20 minutes later
19.6 amps
13.68 @ conv
13.3 @ batts

6.
1hr 48 min
13.1 amps
13.68 @ conv
13.4 @ batts

7.
2 hrs 20 min
11.8 amps
13.69@ conv
13.4 v @ batts

8.
3 hrs
8.1 amps
13.7 volts @ conv
13.5 v @ batts

New 4 hour test . Got into bulk mode I believe by adding a wire to the extra lug..

This wire says AWG 6 gauge THWN 2.. Its electricians wire I got from a solar company I worked for..

This was two batts only test 150 ah...

1.
Start
64.2amps
13.6 conv
12.8 batts

2.
15min
64.2amps
13.93 conv
13.2 batts

3.
30 min
64.2 amps
14.3 conv
13.6 batts

4.
45 min
57 amps
14.47 conv
13.8 batts

5.
1hr
52amps
14.52 conv
14 batts

6.
1 hr 15 min
44.7 amps
14.54 conv
14.1 batts

7.
1 hr 30 min
32 amps
14.56 conv
14.2 batts

8.
1 hr 45 min
27 amps
14.57 conv
14.3 batts

9.
2hr
22amps
14.60conv
14.36 batts

10
2 hr 15 min
19.3 amps
14.61 conv
14.4 batts

11.
2 hr 30 min
16.3 amps
14.62 conv
14.45 batts

12
2hr 45 min
14.4 amps
14.62 conv
14.46 batts

13
3 hr
12.7 amps
14.6 conv
14.49 batts

14
3hr 15 min
11.2 amps
14.61 conv
14.51 batts

15
3 hr 30 min
9.3 amps
14.62 conv
14.53 batts

16
3 hr 45 min
8.1 amps
14.62 conv
14.55 batts

4 hrs...? ( converter went off on time)

14.63 conv..

It changed to absorb 13.6 before I could see the amps ...

My guess 6.9 amps maybe..

Posted By: ktmrfs on 10/11/17 09:43pm

if you have two 75Ah batteries down to around 50 percent, you should be able to get them more than fully charged in 4 hours. even if you start at 40A and it tapers down to 30 after an hour our so, in two hours you would have put 70AH into the batteries. In fact a SWAG says that looking at your data you have put about 110-120AH into the battery in 4 hours. That should have got them to full charge. Or, there is enough other accy draw that is keeping the charge current low, or the meter measuring current isn't real accurate.

your WFCO is doing better than most, but a 55A PD or Iota or Powermax would have the batteries close to 90 or 95 percent in two hours. Now no big deal if you are hooked to shore power, but on a generator, another story. At least it isn't stuck at 13.6V forever which will never get the batteries charged.

I have a bank of 4 T-125's. if they are down around 50 percent, 250AH my 65A PD will get them close to 95 percent in four hours, if I also put the 45A in parallel, closer to 2 1/2 hours.

On another trailer I have a pair of T-125's with a 55A PD. even down to 50 percent, in less than 4 hours current has dropped to between 1 and 2 amps at 14.6V and the converter has dropped down to 13.6V.

Posted By: lawrosa on 10/11/17 10:44pm

Now I know I cant be specific about how discharge the batts were in each test, it would seem I reached the 8 amp threshold in both tests.. At different time frames. 3 hrs vs 4 hours..

I may have drained the batts down a bit too far on the second test though...

But it would seem less time @ 13.6 volts...

So with the link to the wfco instruction that I posted the link above, states short charging time @ 13.6 volts, whats up with that?

There was no accy draw on either tests but one LED light in the camper so I could see..

I do understand the 14.7 volt thing that will push amps in faster.. I have solar so I understand it...

Ill post the vid I made shortly.. its rendering

Posted By: lawrosa on 10/11/17 11:54pm

My Video... Sry I mumble...lol... Its a New Jersey thing... ha ha.. And im not a good video maker...

But here is wfco 8955 pec amp test in bulk mode...

WFCO amp test in bulk mode....

Posted By: 2112 on 10/12/17 04:18am

Excellent discussion and effort on your part lawrosa. I now better understand how my WFCO operates and why I never see it go to 13.2V while in storage. I never leave it on for 2 days!

Even knowing now I think I'll keep doing what I've been doing.

2011 Ford F-150 EcoBoost SuperCab Max Tow, 2084# Payload, 11,300# Tow,
Timbrens, PullRite SuperGlide 2700 15K
2013 KZ Durango 2857

Posted By: BFL13 on 10/12/17 07:47am

Very good work on this! Nice to see.

It seems the batteries must have been really low so the WFCO saw its trigger to go into Boost, because the wiring shows a big voltage drop with the 60 amp flow. That indicates the wiring is still too long and thin, so the reduced R is all from the battery bank being low (I think-)

In my experience you need say 3 ft (one way) of no thinner than #4 wire to get 60 amps with a 55 amper. That's with a converter that does not have any 13.2 thing.

The battery end of the wiring has lower voltage than ideal because of that voltage drop, so the battery is not getting the full benefit of the higher voltage from the WFCO, adding to the time in absorption (I think-)

I expect you will be able to keep the WFCO acting right on batteries not quite so low if you fatten/shorten that wiring.

Posted By: MEXICOWANDERER on 10/12/17 10:23am

Gotta keep in mind, a converter's "prime directive" is not duty as a power supply, but as a baby sitter for the battery.

A converter has two judgements. Either it takes adequate care of a battery or it doesn't.

Posted By: lawrosa on 10/12/17 11:02am

So what should I try with the wiring?

For no cost I can use what I show in my video.

My plan is to change that breaker again to a 50 amp. Run the new wire to it, along with the existing #6 wire, then a piece from the breaker to the battery's..

Or I would have to buy new wire and see what fits in the lug..

Posted By: time2roll on 10/12/17 11:12am

WFCO claims the lug is rated for #2. I could not get every strand to fit (tinned marine battery cable) so I recommend #4. Maybe welding cable would be easier to manage.

With larger wire I would be at 80 amp breaker. I use Bussmann Hi-Amp.

Upgrade the entire loop including ground at battery and converter.

Posted By: BFL13 on 10/12/17 11:28am

I am unclear what your options are for moving the WFCO closer to the batteries or VV to shorten the distance. Might not be a way. Whatever makes sense. ( I avoided all that by using a second higher amp charger close to the batteries and just use the converter that came with the trailer for when on shore power.)

On wire terminals, you are not limited in wire gauge by what the WFCO's will hold. Use short "pigtails" in the WFCO that will fit, and join your fat wire to the pigtail. The little pigtails do not act as chokepoints because they are so short.

Another way is to shave strands in the fat wire until they fit. I find this not so good because the shaved end is uneven in shape and is hard to keep tight in the terminal and can pull out. Maybe needs strain relief to help with that.

Posted By: lawrosa on 10/12/17 12:36pm

Id rather retain the current converter. Its easy for me to run another wire or replace the existing.

I mean I was getting 60 amps with both wires.. measuring seperatly the wire I added had more amps running through it..like 38 amps on added wire vs 24 amps on the existing..

But I am not sure if this is a good formula but they do use this technique in the electrical world...

As I said the existing wire has a breaker and the wire I added had no breaker during my test..

As far finding a large breaker a 50 amps is the only one thats available off the shelf... ( walmart).. I think thats sufficient as they dont trip until a certain percentage..

Posted By: time2roll on 10/12/17 12:46pm

https://www.amazon.com/Cooper-Bussmann-CB185-80-High-Amp-Breaker

If you are getting one of those self resetting automotive breakers... just stop. They are absolute junk at best and fire hazard often enough. Especially putting 60 amps through it.

Posted By: lawrosa on 10/12/17 03:17pm

time2roll wrote:

I have this that I bought for a solar project but I thought it was too many amps..

Its a 100 amp model like you show..although yours is 80 amps

https://www.walmart.com/ip/Bussmann-CB18........wl11=online&wl12=128038267&wl13=&veh=sem

Posted By: time2roll on 10/12/17 03:34pm

Ampacity is about 135 so no trouble with 100 amp breaker on #4 wire.
Even #6 is good for 100 amps as primary wire, not bundled, 105C insulation.

http://www.genuinedealz.com/voltage-drop-calculator

Posted By: ktmrfs on 10/12/17 03:39pm

time2roll wrote:

agreed, at the very very least get one that does NOT automatically reset. why would you want a breaker that trips, resets, trips, resets and lets an overload go on.....

even better get a real breaker or a maxifuse.

best, get a breaker like in the above link.

Posted By: lawrosa on 10/12/17 05:45pm

I think I will do the parallel. I found this that states two #6 = 1- #3..

Its crazy your calculator shows at 15 ft #6 has a 6% voltage drop @ 60 amps.

So I will do better then putting a # 4 to replace..

https://www.wirebarn.com/combined-wire-gauge-calculator_ep_42.html

Posted By: BFL13 on 10/12/17 06:29pm

I don't know, so am just asking---can those clamp meters measure the total amps with two wires at a time like that?

Perhaps related, is I am amazed at the 60 amps on that long a run of fairly thin wires. I couldn't get that.

But I use my Trimetric as the ammeter for what is going into the battery bank. I had a 55 amper on about 3 ft of #8 and it did about 55 amps, but was able to get 60 amps by changing to #4. 15 ft seems like it should be too far, but I am not there with my meter.

Posted By: lawrosa on 10/12/17 07:29pm

BFL13 wrote:

It was additive of amps.. If I put the amp meter on the existing wire it was like 26 amps. The wire I added was like 36 amps..

The existing wire has that re-settable breaker. Maybe why more resistance.. Another issue with the factory wire is there is a soldered butt splice in it.. Story is factory wire was pinched in frame. Dealer cut it and did a shoddy repair. so I butt sliced and soldered.

This guy shows 200 amps through 4 wires...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EYEiXy_ToT0&t=304s

Posted By: time2roll on 10/12/17 07:35pm

I recommend a single wire.

Posted By: lawrosa on 10/12/17 07:48pm

time2roll wrote:

I recommend a single wire.

reason?

Posted By: BFL13 on 10/12/17 08:11pm

Once you have the wiring such that the converter is maxed out, there is no point adding more wire unless you plan to swap to a higher amp converter in place. As you noted, you are getting the max amps now.

A few years ago, I decided to improve my 7355 converter (mid trailer) connection to the battery bank up front, since I could only get 25 amps or whatever at its 13.8v.

I ran a 20 ft length of copper water pipe under the trailer and wired it at each end to battery and converter to run in parallel with the frame on the neg side. Boom! Big increase in amps to battery.

Then I added a run of fat wire on the pos side in parallel with the existing pos wire. Boom some more! Using the 7355 as a power supply, not as a battery charger, I was now able to get 56 amps to the battery. Just for battery charging I was able to get more like 40 amps on that same pos and neg path instead of 25 amps. of course with that 13.8 single voltage converter, I was not able to test for amps to a battery at 14.4v.

So I am a believer in parallel DC wiring, but you can get it wrong. Eg, if one of the wires fails, the other should still have the ampacity to run the amps without melting. The one wire will have a huge voltage drop, but that is not melting. Different issue.

The idea is to have both paths in parallel take about half the amps, but they will actually do it in proportion, so you can have it where one is doing nearly all of it. In that case it might not be "worth it" to have the other one.

Posted By: time2roll on 10/12/17 08:22pm

lawrosa wrote:

time2roll wrote:

I recommend a single wire.

reason?

NEC

Posted By: lawrosa on 10/12/17 09:33pm

BFL13 wrote:

interesting..Id like to discuss this..

Well what I think is if I run the other # 6 , its similar to the #6 thats there now.. The factory #6 may have more strands and thicker jacket why they look different.

Actually the #6 I have is typical 600v AC wire I assume.. Its good for 75 amps @ 194F

I believe once that goes on the breaker I have that was linked above ( 100 amp) it will have similar resistance to the factory wire..

Ummmm,,,, now that I think about it maybe I should treat them seperatly and fuse each line?

The reason is I am not an electrician. Im a plumber 35 years.. If as you say one line faults it may not trip that breaker. The wire may burn before the breaker trips.. FIRE!!!!! lol

I think I am best off putting a 40 amp breaker or 50 amp on each line...

Easy to do.... and cheaper for me as I have the wire..

If I had to buy wire to try to increase the size I dont think I would gain as much as I did when I paralleled them...

What do you think? Because the specs for the wire are as so..

Quote:

Type THHN or THWN-2 conductors are primarily used in conduit and cable trays for services, feeders, and branch circuits in commercial or industrial applications as specified in the National Electric Code
When used as a type THHN conductor it is suitable for use in dry locations that are not to exceed temperatures of 90ºC
THHN copper conductors are annealed (soft) copper
Heat-, moisture-, gasoline- and oil-resistant

But what I see online it shows it makes no difference as long as it carry's the amps...

and both #6 wires will carry the amp rating of the converter if one fails...

Posted By: time2roll on 10/12/17 09:39pm

Would you run parallel drains or supply pipes to mitigate inadequate flow?

Posted By: lawrosa on 10/12/17 09:55pm

time2roll wrote:

Would you run parallel drains or supply pipes to mitigate inadequate flow?

The nec allows parallel wireing... Im just trying to find code on 12 volt instead of 120 v..

Plumbing is different then electric as venting is involved.

But yes if vented properly I can install two floor drains to disapate a specific gallons of water @ 2" pipe, or install one 3" floor drain...

Posted By: Cydog15 on 10/12/17 09:58pm

All the info and there is just nothing better than the 4655 MBA for the WcFO. Never understand any logic spending time on the original OEM. They just don't do the job like that 4655 MBA.

Posted By: MEXICOWANDERER on 10/12/17 10:11pm

Depends entirely on personality.

Some folks despise investing a lot of time into a products that lack

Others see it as a challenge to update the product. Innovate.

One foot should end up pivoting on reality even if a project is a purely educational exercise.

Posted By: lawrosa on 10/12/17 10:32pm

Cydog15 wrote:

All the info and there is just nothing better than the 4655 MBA for the WcFO. Never understand any logic spending time on the original OEM. They just don't do the job like that 4655 MBA.

But lets me realistic... I got my wfco into boost by adding a wire and getting 62 amps..

If I upgrade the bottom end to another model with the button, and no additional wiring, I will only get 30 amps or less as demonstrated by putting my amp probe on each wire separate..

Im all ears for better suggestions..

Posted By: Cydog15 on 10/12/17 11:22pm

lawrosa wrote:

Cydog15 wrote:

All the info and there is just nothing better than the 4655 MBA for the WcFO. Never understand any logic spending time on the original OEM. They just don't do the job like that 4655 MBA.

No question you can modify anything but the flickering and dimming lights deal keeps me away. Hear about it all the time. Just cheap made.

Posted By: MEXICOWANDERER on 10/13/17 02:38am

One of the things you can do to the Wiffie, is to lose the two main capacitors and replace them with Panasonic low ESR 105c rated units. Add a very quiet fan to move more air across the vertical inductors.

"Improving Perforance" means a marginally designed power supply is going to be even more greatly stressed. I would keep this in mind. Converter "designers" love to save money by using morphadite lower temperature crummy ESR caps and low voltage low amperage transistors and rectifiers and marginal air movement. Putting a Turbo on a Yugo may not prove to be a viable option.

Posted By: BFL13 on 10/13/17 08:32am

Here is that thread on my reduction of R converter to battery mentioned earlier.

Note in the thread how it works for parallel Rs--you get a bonus reduction.

Note you can reduce the R on either neg or pos paths or both, it all helps. You don't need to have both neg and pos at the same R either; it is the total R that counts--it is a circuit.

More on how to measure it. Multimeter for voltage and you must know the amps across the thing being measured for R. I use the Trimetric.

If it is a long wire being measured--say 25 ft from converter to battery, add speaker wire to one of the two multimeter wires and put an alligator clip on the end of the speaker wire. Now you can clip that end to the converter lug and go many feet away with the meter and touch the other meter wire to the battery post.

You can now read the voltage and you know the amps. EG, you have 21 amps flow and voltage is 0.03v. R= V/I so 0.03/21 = 0.0014

That 0.03 voltage is also your "voltage drop" across the thing being measured. OK so here is that thread:

http://forums.trailerlife.com/index.cfm/........d/tid/26602216/srt/pa/pging/1/page/1.cfm

Posted By: lawrosa on 10/13/17 01:41pm

BFL13 wrote:

Very nice!!! : )

Posted By: lawrosa on 10/14/17 04:55pm

Ran the wire today.. was fairly simple..

Its same wire thats there, 600v #6. So I have two # 6 wires from converter to batts.

I ran them both to a 60 amps breaker. From the breaker to batts I have #3 wire I was going to run but I ran two #5 to a common ring terminal..

Now that I am thinking would it be better to run one #6 to one battery, and the other #6 to the other battery?

I still need to do an amp test to see how the amps are divided. That will be maybe next week..

There are two tubes through floor for LP so I ran the wire up it to back of panel..

[image]

Posted By: MEXICOWANDERER on 10/14/17 05:13pm

Without adjusting load voltage exactly even between the two batteries, amperage comparison would be a moot point. This means the bridging circuit. Even a small difference in resistance can produce a variance in current. This can be eliminated by tying the load end cables together for your test. But manifolding the feed (supply) is the best way. It insures delivery.

Posted By: lawrosa on 10/14/17 05:55pm

MEXICOWANDERER wrote:

?? What .. Do you mean just tie to one battery and do not split them?

Im probably going to change it to one piece of #3 I have from breaker to battery..

Posted By: BFL13 on 10/14/17 06:08pm

I had the parallel wires to battery bank, and saw you could save the parallel pos. wire between batteries, by putting one pos converter to battery wire on one and one to the other. That made the split into also being the pos parallel link.

This ASSumed you would get half to each battery and each battery would supply half. I was not able to measure how it actually worked, but it worked somehow.

I was not able to do the same on the neg side because of the Trimetric shunt. It took the two parallel neg wires, but had one fat one from the shunt to battery, so I still needed the parallel neg link between batteries.

Eventually, I changed my set- up yet again and didn't have that arrangement anymore.

Posted By: red31 on 10/14/17 06:46pm

And finally, finally, we keep getting asked where the chargers should be connected to. We didn't address this question because it seemed so blatantly obvious where they should be connected that it never occurred to us that anyone might be unsure. The chargers should always be connected to the same points as the loads. Without exception.

from a website about interconnecting batteries in a balanced fashion. yep, just key stokes, anyone can push buttons!

* This post was edited 10/14/17 06:56pm by red31 *

Posted By: red31 on 10/14/17 06:54pm

with starting conditions so far out of wack I'm not sure there a comparison can be made, but higher voltage is faster.

* This post was edited 10/14/17 07:01pm by red31 *

Posted By: time2roll on 10/14/17 07:01pm

The real illustration I get from those graphs is the 13.6 tapered so fast the charge was terminated at 3 hours thinking all was good. Then go to 14.4 volts and it was obvious the charge was not done at 3 hours so the time was extended to 4 hours. The drop in voltage at 4 hour mark made charging pointless to continue.

Posted By: lawrosa on 10/14/17 07:06pm

BFL13 wrote:

Oh I see.. But I have #2 between batts for the parallel cables. Dont want to risk throughput with smaller wire.

Especially when drawing upwards of 83 amps off batts for short burst with inverter.
Coffee maker, toaster oven...etc...

It was a thought.. Its together but I dont like the two wires coming off breaker to the batts..

I found a piece of #3 red and will need to find ring terminals is all..

But its done.. Ill test again when I can..

* This post was edited 10/14/17 07:30pm by lawrosa *

Posted By: red31 on 10/14/17 07:11pm

time2roll wrote:

back out ~an hr from the 14.4v to compare starting @ the same pt!

Posted By: lawrosa on 10/14/17 08:02pm

red31 wrote:

time2roll wrote:

back out ~an hr from the 14.4v to compare starting @ the same pt!

well second test at 14.4 I believe batts were down more.

But even at 13.6 now I should get more charging amps with the parallel wires.

Best testing for me will be in the field camping..

The testing may all be a fluke but I believe when I tested previously with the one wire and batts down low I could not get it to 14.4...

In the field with the generator I can gauge better..

Ill be ending the year camping on the delaware.. No hook ups.. piece and quiet...

They stay open until dec 31...

http://www.state.nj.us/dep/parksandforests/parks/worthington.html

* This post was edited 10/14/17 08:09pm by lawrosa *

Posted By: lawrosa on 10/14/17 11:28pm

red31 wrote:

I see that online.. I only have two batts I believe even wiring is for like 4 batts...

But many get it wrong ...

[image]

Posted By: BFL13 on 10/15/17 07:32am

red31 wrote:

with starting conditions so far out of wack I'm not sure there a comparison can be made, but higher voltage is faster.

The charging looks more like the charger failed to maintain constant rated amps from about 30 to 75 minutes and then proper battery absorption began. Kind of like a typical PD converter's action. (unless it has really short fat wires to battery.)

With a proper charger you get constant amps all the way until amps taper in the classic ski-jump shape as in my ugly graph plus all the pretty ones you see everywhere.

[image]

Posted By: red31 on 10/15/17 08:54am

Extrapolate the ugly graph to 42% (64.2/150) charge or 92A.

There should be no constant current time, immediate abs @ 50% Soc

My point is the battery was extremely discharged. yes, less friction also.

So if ya shift the 14.4v charge curve 30 mins to the left ya find that 55-64 A @ 14.4v (with less friction) compares to 25-30A @ 13.6v @50% DOD/Soc

If ya want to charge @14.4v ya need a charger that will do 14.4v on demand, not having to load up the batts with an inverter load before starting the charger to trick it.

Sunshine mitigates this when it is sunny.

Posted By: BFL13 on 10/15/17 09:25am

Mex says the fastest recharge and least gen time is to do just that--kick off with such high amps per battery AH size that amps taper from the start, with no constant current time at first.

The problem with that is you only save a few minutes overall in gen time, but the charger that can do those high amps costs more than the somewhat lower amp charger.

Goes back to the economics of buying an 80 amper vs a 60 amper--big price diff, vs how many minutes saved doing a 50-90.---one of the things my three ugly graphs tries to show. There is an optimum compromise you can pick depending on your situation--somebody else might pick a different one-- everyone has his own situation)

Posted By: MEXICOWANDERER on 10/15/17 11:38am

The constant voltage methodology is not a magic moment.

It is an extrapolation to a maximum point for reference. The closer you get to this point the faster the battery CAN charge. Think of it this way (might be better yet)...

Set point charging. No stages...

How many minutes or hours does it take for the battery to arrive at voltage set point?

You would be shocked at the number of setups where endpoint takes hours. Not especially because of a tiny charger - it's because of the charger amperage - battery bank capacity differential. Replacing 220 ampere hours takes muscle.
When increased to -440 amp hours how big should a charger be? Got earmuffs?

40-90's...

A single battery may accept only 10 amperes at the 90% point

Times 4 is 40 amperes. Times 8 is 80 amperes.

90% point of my 2-volt cells is over 100 amperes.

So the issue is not cut and dried. Constant voltage charging does not establish a set rule. It establishes a reference point for calculation.

A point of orientation to define "fastest"

Like using a walking speed of 5 mph versus 2 to arrive at a destination.
100 meters is trivial
1 mile is substantial
10 miles it becomes enormous.

I aimed the constant voltage scenario at serious boondockers who probable have very large battery banks. Couple that with length of stay. Throw in a pinch of
"I can't stand it anymore!" tolerance for endless generator noise, and...

There you have it!

Posted By: lawrosa on 10/15/17 12:13pm

So as east penn ( dekka) states in thier charging voltages a c/20 max charge rate.. What happens when you go above that?

example. Two 24's @75ah x 2 = 150 ah. 150ah @20% = 30 amps.

Now two 6 volts @ 225 ah @ 20% = 45 amps.

Is there damage being done getting charged @ 60 amps in either scenario?

Posted By: red31 on 10/15/17 12:24pm

got a link to that 20%? Trojan says 10-13% and can go to 20%, when asked they claim no limit but $$$$ and temp.

"Below is Trojan Battery's response:
There is really no limit to how high the initial charge current can be. We recommend that range of charge currents because charge systems are usually power limited and so we have to give customers a range. There are two things that you have to watch for when using high currents to charge batteries. The first one is that the current must be lowered before the batteries reach a voltage of 2.35 volts-per-cell. The second one is that the battery does not exceed 114°F. The only real advantage of having high charge currents is shorter charge times, but the implementation costs are usually too high.

Posted By: road-runner on 10/15/17 01:51pm

red31 wrote:

Trojan Battery's response...... the current must be lowered before the batteries reach a voltage of 2.35 volts-per-cell

2.35 * 6 = 14.1 . Am I wrong to interpret that as saying 14.4 at the battery, the common boost voltage, is too high? And no mention of battery temperature vs. voltage, either.

Posted By: BFL13 on 10/15/17 05:38pm

road-runner wrote:

red31 wrote:

Trojan Battery's response...... the current must be lowered before the batteries reach a voltage of 2.35 volts-per-cell

2.35 * 6 = 14.1 . Am I wrong to interpret that as saying 14.4 at the battery, the common boost voltage, is too high? And no mention of battery temperature vs. voltage, either.

IMO the tech is not speaking accurately, that's all. You can't reduce what amps the charger is doing, but the battery itself does that, by having an "acceptance rate" for a particular voltage at a particular SOC. At any particular voltage, as SOC rises, the amps acceptance rate goes down--ie amps taper.

The acceptance rate in amps is higher with a lower SOC, or a higher voltage. As seen in my ugly graphs, the acceptance rate starts to go vertical to the left, so it is a case of diminishing returns to go higher amps at say 50% SOC once you are close to the vertical part.

The other thing that is always missed, is that the so -called constant voltage, Absorption Stage, is not at the battery, but at the charger. The battery does not reach the charger's voltage until the very end, and not even then really, when no spread between the two voltages means no more amps flow.

Once amps taper due to the battery acceptance rate at whatever SOC--(higher charging rate sooner at a lower SOC), battery voltage continues to climb towards the charger's voltage. The charger is what has the constant voltage as set for its Vabs, not the battery.

(y ugly graphs are with a 220AH bank with Vector chargers that have a pre-set amps tapering at 14 volts on the battery. So amps taper a bit earlier than you would see with a charger that went higher before amps tapered. However, the charger voltage keeps rising instead of staying constant, which keeps the amps higher during the absorption stage, so the over-all time it takes to do a 50-90 comes out even with a charger that lets things go a bit longer before amps taper. therefore the ugly graphs are still about right for regular, non-Vector, chargers.)

You can use the graphs for other size battery banks with the same amps of charger. It is proportionate. Double the AHs, double the time. 1/3 more AH and 1/3 more time, etc. However, as seen, you do not halve the time by doubling the amps!!! Diminishing returns on that.

So if you like 70 amps on 220AH, you can get the same gen time by using 140 amps on 440AH. It is all in proportion--and that is true whether you have AGMs or Flooded.

The usual limiter is your generator. It can only do so much in VA, which can only run so much of a charger (more in amps if the charger is PF corrected) So your gen time calculation starts there with the charger amps you can do with your gen. After that, it is all about how much battery bank you have in AH and how far down it is. Whatever, you would never try to go above 90% on the gen unless you are crazy [emoticon]

I have a Honda 3000 running 155 amps worth of chargers, and that's that. So my gen time is shorter with a 4 battery bank to do a 50-90 than with a 6 battery bank and a 50-90. I can't use more charger amps with the 6 batts, because the gen can't do that. It is maxed. that is my limiter.

Posted By: MEXICOWANDERER on 10/15/17 08:57pm

road-runner wrote:

red31 wrote:

Trojan Battery's response...... the current must be lowered before the batteries reach a voltage of 2.35 volts-per-cell

2.35 * 6 = 14.1 . Am I wrong to interpret that as saying 14.4 at the battery, the common boost voltage, is too high? And no mention of battery temperature vs. voltage, either.

Hundreds and hundreds of times, thousands of batteries. Constant voltage charge rate. My elderly L16s and 2-volt cells have lived longer than 95% of other batteries out there. But it does help lifespan to have thicker-than-translucent plates. Time is money. Trojan does not buy your generator or fuel or travel time to replenish them. It only cares about one thing --- make the batteries look good! Ask them to come listen to your generator and ride with you to refuel at the c20 rate.

I'll say it yet again

"Ohhhh Mannn! It increased the lifespan of my hundred dollar RV battery by a whopping 30% and it only took an extra sixty dollars to do it"

The new math...

Posted By: lawrosa on 10/16/17 01:19am

red31 wrote:

Yes flooded max current here for deka batts... ( AKA duracells from sams club)

Also max time 1.2 times AH/ avg current.......

I float mine at 13.8 on solar....

http://www.eastpennmanufacturing.com/wp-........able-Energy-Charging-Parameters-1913.pdf

Posted By: red31 on 10/16/17 05:04am

doubt you have D series batteries, see bottom of 1st page you posted,
Note what 2 volt cells -flooded consist of.
D series http://johnsonbatteryco.com/files/4314/1175/3708/D-Series-Flyer-0705.pdf

Then note what monobloc flooded consists of 'DC27'
the list of either is not complete.

Then note the marine master product line, the DC24 is right next to the DC27
http://johnsonbatteryco.com/files/4314/1175/3708/D-Series-Flyer-0705.pdf

Now note
http://www.eastpennmanufacturing.com/wp-........ttery-Care-Maintenance-Brochure-0273.pdf
that includes a charging time chart @ 50A / battery.

Posted By: lawrosa on 10/16/17 07:17am

red31 wrote:

Interesting... Basically these battery's stink...lol..

Same charginging as my truck batt basically... Funny it states 12.4 volts as 50% soc...

http://www2.exide.com/Media/files/Locati........0%26%20Storage%20Specs%20%2011_13_15.pdf

Posted By: red31 on 10/16/17 07:49am

long

http://www.pbase.com/mainecruising/deep_cycle_battery

if ya make it to page 2 youll find

[image]

compass marine

Posted By: MEXICOWANDERER on 10/16/17 08:13am

"We doan need no steenking sediment chambers"

Good image. Now imagine the clearances inside an AGM battery and why laser alignment in so important. And why envelope separators were "such a big deal" when they were introduced.

Posted By: landyacht318 on 10/16/17 11:54am

When I joined this forum I had a very poor understanding of the relationship between volts and amps. I thought a charging source could manipulate each of those individually and had complicated algorithms that could somehow sense the battery capacity and adjust accordingly. This was extremely foolish and ignorant.

After trying to fins some charging source which would be reliable, and could deal with different types of future batteries, and with the help of Mex, I Now use a 40 amp adjustable voltage Meanwell powersupply and use a 90 Amphour AGM battery for both engine starting and house loads. though I have enough room for 345Ah of total capacity.

The adjustable voltage power supply has been modified by me with a 10 turn potentiometer and more heatsinking and ventilation, and I can set it to any voltage between 13.12 and 19.23v and can, if it has to, deliver 40 amps continuously at those chosen voltages. I have a wattmeter/ammeter on the output, as well as a shunted ammeter/Ah counter reading amps into or out of battery. SO I can always see how much amps the power supply is supplying, at what voltage, and how much of that is going into my battery as compared to how much of that is powering DC loads. This removes ALL mystery as to what is going on, and there is no second guessing what the automatic charger is trying to do and and what it is actually doing.

The other night I was unable to sleep, and had not realized I left on a bunch of bigger loads, and at 3:30 AM I clicked my battery monitor and saw I was at 11.7v, 63Ah from full, under a 4.7 amp load.

I go outside and plug in, then plug in my Meanwell power supply, and knowing I will likely fall asleep soon, I set it to 13.6v rather than 14.7v.

When I hooked up the Anderson powerpoles to complete the DC circuit to depleted battery instantly 40 amps was flowing, as there is a big difference between 11.7, and 13.6v. Battery voltage rose instantly to 12.6v but only slowly rose from there, and I went to bed. I am not sure how long it held 40 amps when seeking to hold 13.6v, but I can say for sure it held them for a much shorter timespan compared to if I had set it to 14.7v.

How much amperage is required to get this well depleted battery at ~700 deep cycles and approaching 4 years of Age, to 14.7v instantly? Likely 90+ amps.

I know that now as is, when depleted to about 40% state of charge it will accept 65 amps for ~25 minutes before voltage at battery terminals reaches 14.7v at which point the amps begin tapering.

There is an initial voltage Yoyo when I hook up 65 available amps to a battery this depleted. usually the voltage on this AGM battery will climb to 14.4 fairly quickly at 65 amps, then plateau, then drop to as low as 13.6v, all while sucking up 65 amps. Then some 20 minutes later voltage at battery terminals has risen to 14.7v and at that point the amperage begins to taper.

My point is that when one determines the desired voltage, the charging source should be at maximum output in its quest to get the battery to that voltage.

Anything Automatic is likely trying to figure out a way to not overcharge the batteries, instead of charge the batteries as fast as possible.

The fastest way to recharge is to reach absorption voltage instantly, and depending on the battery(s) and their capacity this can be a huge number, and such high amperage might not be very good for them.

When boondocking off the grid, and time to recharge is a big factor, high amps likley means the batteries reach a higher state of charge when one shuts down the generator, and they wil lnot be discharged as much as otherwise that night, and that is likely overall better for the batteries than coddling them with lighter currents.

Looks like the WFco only did 60 amps when you had a huge load on the DC system, and it never bothered getting the batteries upto absorption voltage. This is fine when plugged into the grid but not fine for boondocking.

Follow BFL13's advice, when boondocking and generator recharging, The powermax adjustable voltage chargers will pump out maximum output until they reach the voltage you have chosen, and then they will hold that voltage as long as you run the generator, and thus basically charge the batteries as fast as safely possible.

When at home and plugged in the Wfco is fine and dandy but if using it to generator recharge you are wasting time and gas and shortening the lifespans of the batteries, especially if the next discharge begins when they are no where near fully charged and you do this every day for 2 weeks.

When one can spin a voltage dial and watch how many amps flow at that voltage, the mystery of how batteries recharge mostly disappears.

I still have an automatic 25 amp charger, but I cannot trust it, and always have to monitor it and second guess it. With the adjustable voltage power supply, the only guessing is how long it will take 40 amps of constant current to achieve absorption voltage, and how long at absorption voltage will be required before amps taper to 0.5% of AGM battery capacity.

I beat the Snot out of this AGM battery by discharging it well below 50% regularly, but then I recharge it to full promptly and often. At 700 + deep cycles the time it takes in absorption to reach full charge is much longer than when it was new, and it can accept 65 amps for less time before reaching absorption voltage, and battery voltage falls further when cranking my engine, but overnight discharges, the voltage held under X amount of amps with X amount of AH removed from battery, well the voltage held is still raising my eyebrows as I have never had any set of batteries last this long and do this well even at half the depth of average discharge.

And it is all due to recharging fully, promptly.

So I Snort in contempt at automatic charging sources, other than my solar controller, whose absorption voltage duration and end amps can be programmed. But hte solar could not keep this battery happy, as there is not enough amps available from my 200 watt array.

Posted By: MEXICOWANDERER on 10/16/17 01:07pm

"Shucks, so what, if it take the generator twice as long to charge my big bank of batteries?"

[image]

Let'r Rip...
When the piston comes out the air filter I might get another to eat now and a second one for later

[image]

Posted By: lawrosa on 10/31/17 08:52pm

Its official.. That wfco sucks..

I went boondocking with heavy use of coffee maker, toaster oven , tv's etc.. 1st night 11.9 volts in morning.. Generator running only 40 amps from wfco. No bulk mode. ( I forgot to put load on batts with my heater) I had amp meter to test.

Propane heater ran that night too as temps got cold.

Charged 3 hours or so..( didnt time it) batts showed 13.6 volts, and I let solar take over.. Was getting about 15 amps. had good sun..

But stuff was being used in the camper throughout the day.

Also that first day I had the truck plugged in.. This added that third battery..

Thinking I have a parasitic draw from the truck I ran the next night with just the two batts.

I managed to get the voltage up to 14.7 with the solar for a brief moment and it went out of bulk. It started getting dark and absorp stage slowly faded.

I assumed I had 90% batts at least..

Well next morning I got up late. Wife was up with kid and grand kids and making coffee with coffee maker.. Inverter was beeping away but never shut down. ( Also TV and outside LED's were left on all night. Son in law never set timer for TV) Heat never came on as was hotter that night.

Got up went out and batts 10.6 or so. UUUgggg

Quickly started generator and plugged in. Still failed to put additional load on batts. I dont even know if it went into bulk as I needed to pack up get kids fed and get out of there. Ran the gen for toaster oven for waffles ect ect. I didnt care at this point... ha ha

Moral of story???

I need the wizard I think. I need to know I can push button and charge at max amps period. I need to know that it came out of bulk and know when I am at 90%. I need to know what stage I am in.

Am I ready to give up on the wfco... I think so. There is nothing more I can try..

Also 2-6 volt batts @ 225 ah will probably serve me better then 3- 12 volts @ 220 aH...

Posted By: time2roll on 10/31/17 10:01pm

Did you ever upgrade the wire in the battery charging loop?
Get the PD9260-14.8 if you really want to juice it up.... and I think you need to.

Posted By: lawrosa on 10/31/17 11:26pm

time2roll wrote:

Did you ever upgrade the wire in the battery charging loop?
Get the PD9260-14.8 if you really want to juice it up.... and I think you need to.

Yes...

Posted By: CJW8 on 11/01/17 02:01pm

I just read the whole post and have a couple of comments:
1. I was thinking from the beginning you need to boondock to prove to yourself what most of us know about the WFCO. It is not up to the task for boondocking. I've had prior experience with them as OEM chargers and always ended up replacing them.
2. On the bench is one thing but when camping and charging, if "ANY" load is put on the system (switch on some lights) it will immediately revert to 13.6 mode and stay there. This was confirmed to me by my own test and by WFCO tech support. It is like the WFCO senses a change in load and says "ok, user is using so I need to go into converter mode".
3. If you are as OCD as you say you are, I see a Trimetric in your future
4. My current 2015 camper came with a 80 deck mounted WFCO converter. I could never get to go into boost even if I pushed the boost button. I replaced it with a 70 amp PD with charge wizard. I can make it go to 14.4 volts (wish I could get 14.6-8) for 4 hours at any time by pushing the button. My solar does 14.7 when I have sun.
5. My 80 WFCO is now a shop charger as I connected some #4 cable to it with battery clamps.

2003 Forest River Sierra M-37SP Toy Hauler- Traded in
2015 Keystone Raptor 332TS 5th wheel toy Hauler (sold)
2004 Winnebago Vectra. 2011 Jeep Grand Cherokee toad

Posted By: MEXICOWANDERER on 11/01/17 02:24pm

NAWWWWWWWWWWW....

It's preferable to spend a camping trip paranoid.

Press buttons until the plastic wears through

Whistle Dixie backward and Kiss the converter's ### to get it to do anything

You will get rewarded with flames, smoke and a wartime grade blackout.

But a Wiffie Gives Great Heatsink

Posted By: lawrosa on 11/01/17 03:24pm

So what will fit in the alotted location?

They show these at best converter...

There is an MBA and an L model that have the wizard and 14.4 ... The boondockers dont look like they have a button... But the bd's are 14.6..

I dont want to get stuck having same issue as the wfco...

http://www.bestconverter.com/WFCO-8955-A........nd-PEC-Replacement-Converters_c_116.html

Posted By: lawrosa on 11/01/17 03:44pm

Quote:

, if "ANY" load is put on the system (switch on some lights) it will immediately revert to 13.6 mode and stay there. This was confirmed to me by my own test and by WFCO tech support. It is like the WFCO senses a change in load and says "ok, user is using so I need to go into converter mode".

My wfco does a good job here.. Its in 13.2 mode now. I even went in and ran the heater for 10 minutes and it stayed in 13.2 mode...

Im sure if I put a larger load on it it will come out and go to 13.6...

Posted By: Cydog15 on 11/01/17 08:34pm

lawrosa wrote:

Quote:

That's not what you want man. It should have went to 13.6 immediately with a furnace coming on. Same old story with those things not going into boost or coming out of float. What is converter mode?
Like you mentioned i'd sure be looking at there new PD version with the L designation. That covers it all.

* This post was edited 11/01/17 08:48pm by Cydog15 *

Posted By: lawrosa on 11/01/17 09:42pm

Quote:

Like you mentioned i'd sure be looking at there new PD version with the L designation. That covers it all.

They have an MBA and an L MBA... whats the difference?

Posted By: lawrosa on 11/01/17 10:07pm

lawrosa wrote:

Quote:

Like you mentioned i'd sure be looking at there new PD version with the L designation. That covers it all.

They have an MBA and an L MBA... whats the difference?

Quote:

New "L" models now include a jumper for charging Lithium-ion batteries (Pics 1&2) Optional remote plugs directly into the converter, not the fuse board (Pic 3)

I found it in the text... I dont need the lithium option. The other MBA shows the penant plug on board too...

I would prefer a unit that would fit with 14.8 volts...or 14.6... Ill have to measure the opening...

Posted By: time2roll on 11/01/17 10:47pm

Boondocker MBA will ALWAYS start in boost. That is just the way it functions. However charging at 14.6 is a bit of a misnomer. Once BD holds 14.6 for 15 minutes Boondocker shifts down into normal mode at 13.6 volts. Depending on amp rating and battery size this shift happens about 70 to 85 percent charged. Could work well as a direct WFCO replacement if you can rely on your solar to finish the absorption phase of charging. I recommend the 45 amp with 2x GC2. This is probably the low cost option.

http://www.bestconverter.com/Boondocker-Main-Board-Assembly

You could get the manually controlled Boondocker and crank on the battery as hard as you see fit. This would be a portable system or mounted near the battery connected direct. Need to watch this one to avoid running the generator too long. Not exactly a boost and forget converter.

http://www.bestconverter.com/Specialty-Converter

Honestly I recommend the PD9260-14.8 converter. This should fit in the WFCO slot and automatically boost the battery four hours at 14.8 volts before dropping to 13.6 normal mode.

http://www.bestconverter.com/9200-148-Volt-Deck-Mount

The PD4655 or regular PD9260/70 should also serve well charging four hours at the standard 14.4 volts.

Posted By: MEXICOWANDERER on 11/01/17 11:22pm

THISis what a person pays attention to, not a gaggle of meaningless numbers.

[image]

But then again people that don't mind hauling a ton of batteries short 30% in ampere hour fill will be happy playing tonka toy lookie at my voltage. Power Pedestal Princess usage could care less. However, "Gee I have six batteries and still run out of power" needs to have the BS scraped off the converter voltage numbers game.

Lights and fans and circuit boards could care less if power is 12.2 or 13.9 But the battery will stick a knife in its belly and jerk upward if it is mistreated. Happy with capacity and battery life? Then there is zero need to stress over converter wheel of fortune charge controls.

Posted By: time2roll on 11/02/17 08:35am

Really we are supposed to dip every cell once an hour while charging to determine "full"? Every day?

Not for me. No way am I taking a hydrometer camping. I use a hydrometer for diagnostics only.

Posted By: MEXICOWANDERER on 11/02/17 08:53am

Read my post about low IQ consumer protection re: propane pots.

You are SUPPOSED TO USE YOUR NOODLE...

Ya think maybe just maybe dipping once cell is too much psychic or psychical effort?

Not once a minute not all cells, that's entirely double digit rationalization

"MY EINSTEIN MODEL SUPER TURBO BOOST I.Q. SWEARS UP AND DOWN VIA LITTLE COLORED BLINKING LIGHTS THAT THE BATTERY IS CHARGED But my heater keeps shutting off at midnight. Mex, recommends I actually stand, walk to a side compartment, grab a...a...a I can't bear to say it, a HYDROMETER and actually use it to dip a battery cell...

Oooooo that can't be! The hydrometer says the battery is nowhere near charged. Well, I fix that! I'll put the hydrometer away and buy another type of magic gauge that agrees with the blinking lights. When it does, I'll then go screaming for a warranty replacement of the battery".

It's merely exercising what lies between the ears...

Posted By: BFL13 on 11/02/17 09:11am

Off grid, with gen charging, you only do 50-90s so who cares about how to tell if the batts are full? All you want is to get that 50-90 done as fast as you can with the gen and charger you have (or wish you had)

Getting batts to true full is done back at home with no load on the batts and lots of time to do it. Now you can use the hydrometer for Wets. You need an ammeter for the AGMs.

Posted By: lawrosa on 11/02/17 11:17am

lol I have a hydrometer, and I carry it with me... But having 8 people camping with you I didnt have time to open the batt boxes and do a hydrometer test. Two grandkids 4 and 2 yrs keep you busy.

But I figures with full batts the first day I would wake up with better then 11.9v -11.8v the next morning.. That was the 3 12 volts @ 220 aH...

As I said second day I just tried the two batts as I though I nay have had a parisitic draw from the truck.. Well 10.5v the next day wasnt good, and that day we were leaving..

Im trying to find the current dimentions of whats in there now so I can chose what I can fit in there...

I dont want a stand alone and just want to replace the bottom end for simplicity..

I wonder if I brought my old 50 amps sears charger from 1985 and put on 50 amp start for 1 hour or so I would get better results...

[image]

Posted By: lawrosa on 11/02/17 10:27pm

I e mailed randy from best converters. I like the unit with the "L" designation as its got a jumper for lithium batts..

I asked him whats the difference in charging voltages with the lithium jumper setting..

From what I read on line Lithium wants 14.6?

If so I would get this unit and leave jumper on lithium setting... But I am not sure...

http://www.bestconverter.com/PD-4655L-MB........des-4600-Remote-_p_677.html#.WfvsVWhSyUk

Posted By: lawrosa on 11/02/17 10:35pm

Heres a funny thing. Still its thursday and back 4 days from the trip. I dipped the cells today and batts read 1250 on hydrometer. And wfco was in float. Down .1 v from 13.2 to 13.1.

Camper got plugged in as soon as I got home. I guess the truck didnt charge the batts much on the way home...

And I guess the wfco is doing something wrong.

I through my old sears charger on it for 15 minutes on 50 amp ( Was like 15.3 volts) then turned it down to the 10 amp setting ( held at 14.7-14.6 volts on this setting...

Dipped again about 2 hours later and batts 1275 on hydro...

Crazy...

Posted By: red31 on 11/03/17 07:31am

lawrosa wrote:

Crazy...

what's so crazy about reversing the chemical reaction with energy and giving the fluid a bit of a stir?

Posted By: MEXICOWANDERER on 11/03/17 09:57am

Dipped again about 2 hours later and batts 1275 on hydro...

Crazy...

Waking from the Smart Charger dream can be rude. Kudos for using your noodle. I now pronounce you "GREENER". Actually doing something to save energy and resources.

Posted By: lawrosa on 11/03/17 10:18am

MEXICOWANDERER wrote:

What did I do? It just seemed the wfco went into float after its 40 hour thing and the batts are not even charged after 4 days...

So I hit them with my old portable.. Ill set up my solar panel this weekend.. I leave it on 13.7 In the morning solar goes into bulk 14.7 for a breif moment then to float the rest of the day..

So I assume by reading that the pd unit above I linked to that has the lithium option, charges always @ 14.6 volts. 24/7... Is this true?

If so I dont think I need the L model then...

Posted By: lawrosa on 11/03/17 12:36pm

I guess my findings were correct... I dont think ill ever go litium but randy says constant 14.6 volts when jumper is moved...

So I think Ill go with the other one thats a few bucks cheaper...

http://www.bestconverter.com/PD4655MBA-W........udes-4600-Remote_p_616.html#.Wfy3rmhSyUl

Quote:

Hi Mike

That 4566VL is exactly what I recommend. It will do a great job with any flooded or AGM and you can control it with the pendant that comes with it. If you switch to lithium in the future, you just move the jumper and it changes to constant 14.6, which is what most lithium manufactures use for the target voltage. Thanks.

Randy
BestConverter
Direct 208-514-8950

Posted By: pnichols on 11/03/17 01:00pm

lawrosa wrote:

Mike ... what a small world. That old Sears 10/2/50 charger in your photo is the exact model that I carry along in our RV to help charge our AGM RV batteries faster! The charger in your photo looks to be in immaculate condtion, unlike my old rusted and battle-worn 10/2/50.

When drycamping, I charge my AGM batteries using a little ultra-quiet Honda EX650 generator to power BOTH the RV's stock 13.8 volt converter hooked up in parallel with the Sears 10/2/50 set to it's 50 amp "Start" position. The two chargers together in parallel pump more current into the batteries per hour than just the converter alone does.

I can't believe those old Sears war-horse chargers are still around and still work ... they don't make em' like they used to.

2005 E450 Itasca 24V Class C

Posted By: lawrosa on 11/03/17 02:10pm

LOL... That was a stock pic I found.. This is my one actually...

Bought in 1985

I guess it pays keeping it in original box... lol

[image]

Posted By: MEXICOWANDERER on 11/03/17 04:46pm

A new SMART charger lasts months, not decades. Look at the energy efficiency of THIS smart charger....

[image]

Posted By: scrubjaysnest on 11/03/17 04:55pm

lawrosa wrote:

Looking over your numbers I see two things:
The wire from the WFCO is to small for the 15 foot run, over 0.5 volt loss in the wire.
For the truck it's even worse at 1.5 volts loss.

3rd thing to note is your WFCO is working better then any I've seen. Our current one will do 24 amps for 15 minutes; that's a 12% ROC for each house battery. After that it drops to 6 amps or 3 per battery which is pretty much a float current on a 105 aH battery. Our WFCO will rise to 14.2 volts at the batteries for ~ 1hour after which it drops to float.
For those times I need to run the jenny I separate the two house batteries and put automotive smart charges on each. This puts 20 amps into each battery for about an hour at which time the charges now switch to 14.8 volts for the absorb cycle. This starts about 80% SOC for the batteries.
Most of the time We just let the solar handle it. For full sun that is 25 amps or 12.5 amps per battery @ 12.6 to 12.8 volts. Once the batteries reach 14.8 volts the will then taper until full charge is reached usually between 1 and 2 pm. Again that's for full sun.
It looks like your one of the few WFCO owners with a keeper.

Axis 24.1 class A 500watts solar TS-45CC Trimetric
Very noisy generator ">
2016 Wrangler JK dinghy
“They who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety.” Benjamin Franklin

Posted By: Cydog15 on 11/03/17 05:46pm

lawrosa wrote:

Quote:

For only a few bucks, you also get the new style board. I think PD corrected some minor fan issues as well with the new style board. I'd take advantage if the new board with the lithium option if for nothing else, a good selling point if you ever trade.

Posted By: CJW8 on 11/04/17 10:36am

More damning WFCO evidence. I took my 3 Grp 24 batteries down to 12.05v. Dragged out my WFCO 89100 that now has battery jumper clamps with 6' of #4 welding lead. Results: over 7 hours, volts stayed flat. The 3 hour gap in the last two readings is because we went to a movie. It is a good converter that will provide lots of amps but a pretty sorry charger as we all know.

time volts amps
1647 13.39 105.8
1702 13.46 98.1
1723 13.62 82
1755 13.41 36.6
1839 13.49 25.36
2157 13.62 5.67

Posted By: time2roll on 11/04/17 10:42am

Boost button does not work? [emoticon]

Posted By: MEXICOWANDERER on 11/04/17 12:31pm

The one and only "BOOOOst Button" that really works

[image]

Posted By: CJW8 on 11/04/17 12:42pm

time2roll wrote:

Boost button does not work? [emoticon]

Never has worked on mine.

Posted By: pnichols on 11/05/17 09:39am

MEXICOWANDERER wrote:

The one and only "BOOOOst Button" that really works

That boost button doesn't even work when camping with plenty of other things to take up your time.

Set It and Forget It should be the goal of battery charger designers.

I sure wish Parallax hadn't discontinued their converter design such that every time it was powered up it's output automatically went to 14.X volts for 4 hours and then switched back and remained at 13.6-13.8 volts after that if it was left continuously powered. IAW, a built-in 4 hour timer with each turn-on without one having to turn a timer knob. If one wanted to force it's 14.X volt output anytime, all you had to do was switch it off at the power panel and then immediately switch it back on.

That Parallax converter model line would have been very close to Set It and Forget It for today's AGM batteries that specify 13.5-13.8 volts float and 14.X volts for cycle service.

It was probably ahead of it's time because back then lead acid batteries - liquid or AGM - with a specified float voltage of 13.5-13.8 volts weren't widely available, if at all.

Posted By: BFL13 on 11/05/17 10:02am

Phil, you might be thinking of the 7300s with the T option. It had a Timer that started in boost of only 14.2ish and it ran for 13 hours before dropping to regular 13.8. So it would not have been so nifty IMO.

Posted By: pnichols on 11/05/17 05:01pm

BF .... right you may regarding the ~13 hours at 14.2 volts. I thought I had recalled some T Series literature long ago that talked of 4 hours being the time for the high voltage period before it automatically dropped to the 13.6-13.8 volt range.

That still would be better to use for longer term drycamping stays with the brand of AGM batteries I've been using instead of - for the rare times we camp longer term - our 13.8 volt fixed voltage 7345 paralled with a Sears 10/2/50 or our 7345 supplimented with our idling V10's alternator.

Here's some info on the discontinued Parallax T series: http://d163axztg8am2h.cloudfront.net/sta........c/26/77/f0e81d6f50d9a8f29fed7063ad4d.pdf

Posted By: lawrosa on 11/05/17 07:03pm

Hers my alternator charging set up when I had the old camper and towed with an s 10.. Even now with the silverado I only get 15 amps to the 7 pin because wire too small..

I may do something similar to current TV.. IDK. But back they I didnt want a generator.. Now that I aquired one its a different story.

TV charge mod s10 to RV batterys..

Posted By: pnichols on 11/05/17 09:24pm

Mike, nice write-up in your link above on how you used your idling tow vehicle and it's alternator to do very silent RV battery charging in noise sensitive camping environments.

I've been kindof advocating to use this approach in these forums. My 130 amp Ford alternator has dumped as much as 70 amps into our batteries at engine idle - which is very quiet. It works very well as a beginning phase for up to an hour before I use our generator to finish the charging through our stock 13.8 volt RV converter.

It all seems to play very well together.

* This post was edited 11/05/17 11:18pm by pnichols *

Posted By: Cydog15 on 11/08/17 10:00pm

lawrosa wrote:

Mike,
I'd do that in a pinch but the reason not to has nothing to do with the alternator. Are you sure you want to idle your motor that long without an idle up switch like the law enforcement vehicles use?

Posted By: SoundGuy on 11/08/17 10:41pm

lawrosa wrote:

I did the same with my Silverado using 4 gauge booster cable to minimize voltage drop. Rather than using for recharging the battery I mostly used it to load support the trailer's G27 battery when I wanted to power high draw devices such as the toaster with my 1000 watt PSW inverter.

[image]

It worked well, the stock truck alternator easily handled the task, BUT recently when I tried to use it I got no load support. Arrggh ... turned out those very same Anderson SB50 connectors you used had corroded over time so the increased resistance caused the connectors to melt. [emoticon]

I've since torn it out but if I replace it next season I'll have to use a different kind of connector that can survive the elements better than the Andersons.

Posted By: MEXICOWANDERER on 11/08/17 10:53pm

I had nothing but misery with Anderson connectors. Bad fit, difficult connect and disconnect and decomposition. I quit in frustration.

The image below makes it hard to see the pins but they are cross split. For a reason.

When the socket wears down, insert a knife tip into the cross plug splits and spread the pins. This is commercial truck stuff and trucker's would throw things at anyone recommending an Anderson Pole Connector...

[image]

GROTE 82-10412 Pole Socket

Posted By: lawrosa on 11/08/17 11:29pm

I use 8 gauge trolling motor plug for my solar panels.. That grote plug looks good @ 4 gauge... Interesting... Same concept but bigger wire...

Good info here guys... This is a good thread. Ive learned a lot from all of you...

[image]

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