I have a quantity of 2 AWG wire on a spool, a supply of tin clad copper wire ends in various sizes, and a heavy terminal "hammer spike crimper thing"
I would like to add a battery turn off and shunt to measure amps and also be able to measure voltage/charge remaining.
So here's the setup.
1. Four batteries in a row, long sides against each other. Call them A, B, C, D. A&B pair #1, C&D pair #2
2. Two 2 AWG cables for each section to allow higher amps. Ex. two 2 AWG cables between battery A(-) and B(+), and two 2 AWG cables between battery C(-) and D(+), and two 2 AWG cables between B(-) and C(+) to make two sets of series then paralleled together to get 12v "super battery" LOL
3. Two 2 AWG cables from D(-) to one end of shunt and then two 2 AWG cables from other end of shunt to inverter (switch, then (-)) and PD9270 (-)
4. Two 2 AWG cables from A(+) to inverter (+) and PD9270(+)
5. 120v AC line to distribution box (30 amp transfer switch?) and PD9270
It's a little foggy, so I'll stop there and ask for input
![[emoticon]](http://www.coastresorts.com/sharedcontent/cfb/images/wink.gif "wink")
Wire size, wiring diagram, etc.
Caveat, the PS1800 has built in transfer switch, but I prefer not to use it. Want to keep a separate circuit and/or transfer switch at the 30 amp 120v incoming cable for pedestal/generator.
Help?
2011 Keystone Outback 295RE
2004 14' bikehauler with full living quarters
2015.5 Denali 4x4 CC/SB Duramax/Allison
2004.5 Silverado 4x4 CC/SB Duramax/Allison passed on to our Son!
![[image]](https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/814jNtxLqsL._SL1500_.jpg)
It will have one output to the distribution panel, one input from shore power/generator, one input from inverter.
If it has shore power/generator, it gets priority and shuts off the inverter input.
2oldman wrote:
Sounds good but why not use the Pro transfer switch?
Sounds good but why not use the Pro transfer switch?
Amps. It won't handle microwaver, air conditioner, etc.
Better to bypass it and get the full 30 amps
http://www.genuinedealz.com/custom-cables?size=46
2001 F150 SuperCrew
2006 Keystone Springdale 249FWBHLS
675w Solar pictures back up
Also, the two lines (positive and negative) run 'em in a loom or tape them side by side for as much of the run as possible.
Other than that.. Enjoy.
Home was where I park it. but alas the.
2005 Damon Intruder 377 Alas declared a total loss
after a semi "nicked" it. Still have the radios
Kenwood TS-2000, ICOM ID-5100, ID-51A+2, ID-880 REF030C most times
time2roll wrote:
IIRC Xantrex recommends 4/0 minimum wire.
http://www.genuinedealz.com/custom-cables?size=46
IIRC Xantrex recommends 4/0 minimum wire.
http://www.genuinedealz.com/custom-cables?size=46
x2 ... OP mentions 2-4 ft, at worst case, that's 8 feet of cable, plus the lengths of interconnects between batteries. The heavier the better JMHO
Welding cable is cheap if you buy it from a brick 'n mortar welding shop. it's silly expensive online for some reason. I bought 4/0 locally for less than I could get 1 gauge on Amazon.
Super soft high temp silicone (or maybe neoprene?) insulation, ultra fine strands so it is very flexible
2013 KZ Sportsmen Classic 200, 20 ft TT
2020 RAM 1500, 5.7 4x4, 8 speed
Okay, I'll start sourcing that tomorrow.
Here is the start of a diagram of the wiring I anticipate. Feel free to chop it up and make any corrections
Thanks!
{deleted incorrect diagram, see update later in the thread}
* This post was edited 06/06/17 09:11pm by DiskDoctr *
DiskDoctr wrote:
So it looks like I need to jump to 4/0 wires?
I thought your plan of 2-2awg would be fine. 4/0 is real bear to work with, and is only needed for big draw stuff like extended MW use and maybe coffee makers - which 4 batteries can only handle comfortably for relatively short periods.So it looks like I need to jump to 4/0 wires?
The ampacity of 2 2awgs is almost the same as 4/0..assuming they work in parallel as you're hoping they will.
2oldman wrote:
The ampacity of 2 2awgs is almost the same as 4/0..assuming they work in parallel as you're hoping they will.
DiskDoctr wrote:
So it looks like I need to jump to 4/0 wires?
I thought your plan of 2-2awg would be fine. 4/0 is real bear to work with, and is only needed for big draw stuff like extended MW use and maybe coffee makers - which 4 batteries can only handle comfortably for relatively short periods.So it looks like I need to jump to 4/0 wires?
The ampacity of 2 2awgs is almost the same as 4/0..assuming they work in parallel as you're hoping they will.
Are you sure about this? I have 2 AWG here and ends for it.
2oldman wrote:
Sure about what.. the ampacity? I just looked it up. I thought that was why you were doubling up on them. Did I read that right?
Sure about what.. the ampacity? I just looked it up. I thought that was why you were doubling up on them. Did I read that right?
I'm a bit out of my area, never really have to spec something this big, so hand-holding is good here
If I add up all my wires, I'll have 6 connections about 1ft each between the four batteries to make them a bank.
Then 2 lengths around 5 ft or so max for the inverter and PD9270.
Is it acceptable to run grounds to Chassis/frame? I saw that in Roy's diagram in another thread.
So are you sure that I can just double up the 1ft lengths between batteries (is this needed, each one would be 100 amps, right?), and then find 4/0 or something for the 5ft lengths?
I'm concerned not with *your* knowledge, but my interpretation of what I *think* you're saying.
![[image]](http://photos.imageevent.com/2oldman/rvnetlinks/4batteryAmpDraw.jpg)
Before we get too involved in this, please share with us what will be the largest loads on your inverter.
The shunt outer end can't hold all those negs, so you need a neg buss bar to hold a bunch of negs, then a fat wire from the neg buss to the outer end of the shunt.
The PD 70 has two sets of terminals AFAIK. You can use the second set as a buss to connect something else.
Double #2 short wire is huge. Can't see any point in going fatter single. Just have to reduce the ends anyway to fit the inverter and converter terminals. Vector 2000w (4000w surge) inverter specifies a wiring kit of twin #4 three feet long. Twin #2 is way more than that. Holy cow. The inverter is 1800, less than 2000.
My 3000w inverter also has twin terminals and they have a kit for it with double #4 three feet long.
Of course if you have a run of much more than 3 feet distance, say over 6 ft (one way) you would have to go fatter wire.
* This post was edited 06/06/17 06:26pm by BFL13 *
1. 1991 Oakland 28DB Class C
on Ford E350-460-7.5 Gas EFI
Photo in Profile
2. 1991 Bighorn 9.5ft Truck Camper on 2003 Chev 2500HD 6.0 Gas
See Profile for Electronic set-ups for 1. and 2.
2oldman wrote:
For a 1200w appliance, this is what the approximate amperages to the inverter look like in your setup:
Before we get too involved in this, please share with us what will be the largest loads on your inverter.
For a 1200w appliance, this is what the approximate amperages to the inverter look like in your setup:
Before we get too involved in this, please share with us what will be the largest loads on your inverter.
Okay, so this is my planned battery wiring diagram.
![[image]](http://www.diskdoctor.us/camper/cougar304bhs/BatteryBank.png)
Each of the 6 wires would be about a foot and would carry up to 100 amps each, correct? They wouldn't have to be doubled, right?
Then the two leads from the center to the right side of the drawing would have to carry 400 amps and would be...doubled 2 AWG (not 2/0), right?
Microwave 13amps is biggest load. I was trying to account for startup surge
BFL13 wrote:
That neg from battery to frame needs to be changed to go to the outer end of the shunt along with all the other negs. Only thing from battery neg is one fat (or double thinner) wire(s) to the inner end of the shunt.
That neg from battery to frame needs to be changed to go to the outer end of the shunt along with all the other negs. Only thing from battery neg is one fat (or double thinner) wire(s) to the inner end of the shunt.
I had shunt wired in series in positive line. Is that wrong?
Quote:
The shunt outer end can't hold all those negs, so you need a neg buss bar to hold a bunch of negs, then a fat wire from the neg buss to the outer end of the shunt.
The shunt outer end can't hold all those negs, so you need a neg buss bar to hold a bunch of negs, then a fat wire from the neg buss to the outer end of the shunt.
Still not sure why/where negative goes to the shunt?
Quote:
Double #2 short wire is huge. Can't see any point in going fatter single. Just have to reduce the ends anyway to fit the inverter and converter terminals. Vector 2000w (4000w surge) inverter specifies a wiring kit of twin #4 three feet long. Twin #2 is way more than that. Holy cow. The inverter is 1800, less than 2000.
Double #2 short wire is huge. Can't see any point in going fatter single. Just have to reduce the ends anyway to fit the inverter and converter terminals. Vector 2000w (4000w surge) inverter specifies a wiring kit of twin #4 three feet long. Twin #2 is way more than that. Holy cow. The inverter is 1800, less than 2000.
Surge capability is 2800 watts. I was designing for that. I'm also wrong on that?
Quote:
Of course if you have a run of much more than 3 feet distance, say over 6 ft (one way) you would have to go fatter wire.
Of course if you have a run of much more than 3 feet distance, say over 6 ft (one way) you would have to go fatter wire.
The inverter is going to have to go into the front storage area, so out of bottom of battery box, under front and up through floor to inverter.
The PD9270 should fit in the box, so it will be closer. I was estimating worst case- if both have to go into the front storage pass through area.
ampacity isn't the main issue with wire. it is the voltage drop in a 12V system. to much drop and the inverter kicks out thinking battery voltage is low.
The inverter wiring is for the amps you will see. The surge rating is for a very short moment that might happen. The fuse on the pos is supposed to protect the wires in that case, like an ANL fuse will not blow right off, but gives a moment for the surge to go away before it blows but then it will if it stays on.
Others might correct me on that but they would have to explain it, which is ok if they do.
BFL13 wrote:
Is the shunt not for a Trimetric monitor? Read the installation manual--it is quite clear on what goes where. Shunts go on the neg side. BTW you want the 500a shunt for the higher amps the inverter will draw, not the 100a.
The inverter wiring is for the amps you will see. The surge rating is for a very short moment that might happen. The fuse on the pos is supposed to protect the wires in that case, like an ANL fuse will not blow right off, but gives a moment for the surge to go away before it blows but then it will if it stays on.
Others might correct me on that but they would have to explain it, which is ok if they do.
Is the shunt not for a Trimetric monitor? Read the installation manual--it is quite clear on what goes where. Shunts go on the neg side. BTW you want the 500a shunt for the higher amps the inverter will draw, not the 100a.
The inverter wiring is for the amps you will see. The surge rating is for a very short moment that might happen. The fuse on the pos is supposed to protect the wires in that case, like an ANL fuse will not blow right off, but gives a moment for the surge to go away before it blows but then it will if it stays on.
Others might correct me on that but they would have to explain it, which is ok if they do.
Okay, so I should design the wires for 2kw loads, not 2800 watts?
Not a trimetric, just something cheap and simple
So I should move the shunt to negative side?
I was modeling after Roy's diagram below:
![[image]](http://www.diskdoctor.us/camper/cougar304bhs/Roy-wiring.png)
Except for splitting the battery banks
![[image]](http://www.diskdoctor.us/camper/cougar304bhs/12v%20Wire%20AWG%20Gauge%20per%20foot%20300%20amps.png)
![[emoticon]](http://www.coastresorts.com/sharedcontent/cfb/images/smile.gif "smile")
Forget a switch and just have a fuse on the positive main cable near the battery. Fewer connections the better.
BFL13 wrote:
IMO keep it simple for now and just go camping. IMO you are going faster than your research can keep up before your time to depart. IMO just use all that #2 as best you can and see how it all works, then start to tidy up as you figure it all out. At least I can't keep up! Maybe others can, no idea.
IMO keep it simple for now and just go camping. IMO you are going faster than your research can keep up before your time to depart. IMO just use all that #2 as best you can and see how it all works, then start to tidy up as you figure it all out. At least I can't keep up! Maybe others can, no idea.
Haha, yeah it's JUST like that! LOL
time2roll wrote:
I went 2/0 for the parallel connectors. Undiscovered bad connection could put full amps through one side.
Forget a switch and just have a fuse on the positive main cable near the battery. Fewer connections the better.
I went 2/0 for the parallel connectors. Undiscovered bad connection could put full amps through one side.
Forget a switch and just have a fuse on the positive main cable near the battery. Fewer connections the better.
Okay, so switch changes to fuse...how many amps?
Series connectors in Bank 1 and Bank 2 are okay with single 2 AWG 12" connectors, then use doubled 2 AWG for both the Bank 1 to Bank 2 connectors, and then use...
Doubled 2 AWG connectors to inverter and PD9270 for now and see how it goes?
Does this sound right?
![[emoticon]](http://www.coastresorts.com/sharedcontent/cfb/images/frown.gif "frown")
Looks like I can make the PD9270 2 AWG quite easily, it's only 70 amps
time2roll wrote:
I went 2/0 for the parallel connectors. Undiscovered bad connection could put full amps through one side.
Forget a switch and just have a fuse on the positive main cable near the battery. Fewer connections the better.
I went 2/0 for the parallel connectors. Undiscovered bad connection could put full amps through one side.
Forget a switch and just have a fuse on the positive main cable near the battery. Fewer connections the better.
That is a valid point. Using twin thinner wires instead of one fat wire has that risk. Now it is down to your fuse(s) EG with a spec for a 300a fuse on the fat wire, you could go with two thinner wires to the 300a fuse or have a 150a fuse on each wire to the pos battery post.
In the latter case the 150a fuse on the one thinner wire now taking 300a would save the day.
BFL13 wrote:
That is a valid point. Using twin thinner wires instead of one fat wire has that risk. Now it is down to your fuse(s) EG with a spec for a 300a fuse on the fat wire, you could go with two thinner wires to the 300a fuse or have a 150a fuse on each wire to the pos battery post.
In the latter case the 150a fuse on the one thinner wire now taking 300a would save the day.
time2roll wrote:
I went 2/0 for the parallel connectors. Undiscovered bad connection could put full amps through one side.
Forget a switch and just have a fuse on the positive main cable near the battery. Fewer connections the better.
I went 2/0 for the parallel connectors. Undiscovered bad connection could put full amps through one side.
Forget a switch and just have a fuse on the positive main cable near the battery. Fewer connections the better.
That is a valid point. Using twin thinner wires instead of one fat wire has that risk. Now it is down to your fuse(s) EG with a spec for a 300a fuse on the fat wire, you could go with two thinner wires to the 300a fuse or have a 150a fuse on each wire to the pos battery post.
In the latter case the 150a fuse on the one thinner wire now taking 300a would save the day.
All wisdom from you guys there
So should I use the threaded posts or the terminals? Any preferences?
DiskDoctr wrote:
I am having trouble finding 500amp shunt for ammeter-
The above is 500a.
I am having trouble finding 500amp shunt for ammeter-
2oldman wrote:
The cool thing about this unit is it displays on your smartphone:Victron BMV-700 meter (500a shunt)
The cool thing about this unit is it displays on your smartphone:Victron BMV-700 meter (500a shunt)
DiskDoctr wrote:
I am having trouble finding 500amp shunt for ammeter-
The above is 500a.I am having trouble finding 500amp shunt for ammeter-
Thanks, but that is about $100 or so more than I'd like to spend
I prefer the term "frugal" ... unless it saves me money
![[emoticon]](http://www.coastresorts.com/sharedcontent/cfb/images/tongue.gif "tongue")
LOL
DiskDoctr wrote:
So should I use the threaded posts or the terminals? Any preferences?
I would use both. Interconnects on one and the main inverter feed on the other.So should I use the threaded posts or the terminals? Any preferences?
On my link toward the start you can configure any way you like. Get the right stud hole in the lugs too. Most batteries are 5/16" and I think the inverter is 3/8". Do verify before you order.
* This post was edited 06/06/17 07:54pm by DiskDoctr *
DiskDoctr wrote:
Looking at my diagram, if I move the shunt to the negative side, "what" gets grounded to the frame, anything?
Looking at my diagram, if I move the shunt to the negative side, "what" gets grounded to the frame, anything?
You still need the battery neg to frame but now it goes via the shunt so the shunt can read anything that uses the frame for a neg path, which a lot of RV things do,
BFL13 wrote:
You still need the battery neg to frame but now it goes via the shunt so the shunt can read anything that uses the frame for a neg path, which a lot of RV things do,
You still need the battery neg to frame but now it goes via the shunt so the shunt can read anything that uses the frame for a neg path, which a lot of RV things do,
![[emoticon]](http://www.coastresorts.com/sharedcontent/cfb/images/doh.gif "doh")
Uhm...yeah. Don't tell anybody I actually asked that dumb question! LOL!
Yep...lots to digest!
I'm looking for 2/0, looks much more likely to happen and from the charts, double the distance- so double the capacity, right?
Thanks!
*Removed old drawing*
* This post was edited 06/24/17 08:25am by DiskDoctr *
Just add a fuse same as the prewired GP TS-30
![[image]](http://gpelectric.com/files/gpelectric/images/graphics/GP-TS_Wiring_vD2.jpg)
there are ONLY (4) interconnect wires used/needed
only one positive to negative connection in each pair
(2) batteries side by side positive to neg
is going to blow up
DiskDoctr wrote:
Okay, so this is my planned battery wiring diagram.
Each of the 6 wires would be about a foot and would carry up to 100 amps each, correct? They wouldn't have to be doubled, right?
Then the two leads from the center to the right side of the drawing would have to carry 400 amps and would be...doubled 2 AWG (not 2/0), right?
Microwave 13amps is biggest load. I was trying to account for startup surge
2oldman wrote:
For a 1200w appliance, this is what the approximate amperages to the inverter look like in your setup:
Before we get too involved in this, please share with us what will be the largest loads on your inverter.
For a 1200w appliance, this is what the approximate amperages to the inverter look like in your setup:
Before we get too involved in this, please share with us what will be the largest loads on your inverter.
Okay, so this is my planned battery wiring diagram.
Each of the 6 wires would be about a foot and would carry up to 100 amps each, correct? They wouldn't have to be doubled, right?
Then the two leads from the center to the right side of the drawing would have to carry 400 amps and would be...doubled 2 AWG (not 2/0), right?
Microwave 13amps is biggest load. I was trying to account for startup surge
I can explain it to you.
But I Can Not understand it for you !
....
Connected using T-Mobile Home internet and Visible Phone service
1997 F53 Bounder 36s
time2roll wrote:
I would skip the NC Relay and pull power for the converter from the Shore input of the TS30.
Just add a fuse same as the prewired GP TS-30
I would skip the NC Relay and pull power for the converter from the Shore input of the TS30.
Just add a fuse same as the prewired GP TS-30
Ahhhh! Now I get it...
Move the Converter/charger's power supply to the same terminal blocks in the transfer switch as the shoreline input cable. So it would only be powered if the shoreline cable/generator supplies power.
The inverter would still be "on" by getting 12vdc from the batteries, but its 120v output would be switched OFF by the presence of the shore/generator power.
I think that is okay. I can either turn off the inverter with its switch, or leave it running, since it won't have any load and the camper will have 120v supply from shore/generator providing charge to the batteries through the converter/charger- so no draining of batteries.
Sound about right?
Thanks!
MrWizard wrote:
disckDoctor your wiring diagram is wrong you have a dead short on all your batteries
there are ONLY (4) interconnect wires used/needed
only one positive to negative connection in each pair
(2) batteries side by side positive to neg
is going to blow up
disckDoctor your wiring diagram is wrong you have a dead short on all your batteries
there are ONLY (4) interconnect wires used/needed
only one positive to negative connection in each pair
(2) batteries side by side positive to neg
is going to blow up
Good catch, thanks!!!
How about this one?
a 200amp shunt will be find
150amps for 1800w
200a = 2400w
MrWizard wrote:
much better
much better
Thanks! I updated the graphic and it retroactively updated the previous posts and the quote, so it looks odd that you say it will short but is now fine, LOL. Maybe you can edit your post to drop the pic so future readers can learn from this thread and not get confused?
I guess now we won't know what "critical mass" of a 4 battery bank really is, nor the melting temp of a Keystone tongue
![[emoticon]](http://www.coastresorts.com/sharedcontent/cfb/images/eek.gif "eek")
LOL.Some things we are better off not knowing
BFL13 wrote:
If he were getting a Trimetric, AFAIK the choices are 100 or 500 and he needs more than 100. However, he is looking at other monitors.
If he were getting a Trimetric, AFAIK the choices are 100 or 500 and he needs more than 100. However, he is looking at other monitors.
Didn't you have a thread about a Poor man's Trimetric a while back? What ever became of that?
MrWizard wrote:
you don;t need a 500amp shunt
a 200amp shunt will be find
150amps for 1800w
200a = 2400w
you don;t need a 500amp shunt
a 200amp shunt will be find
150amps for 1800w
200a = 2400w
So if it surges over 200a, the shunt will burn out, or just max out?
![[image]](http://www.diskdoctor.us/camper/cougar304bhs/Xantrex%20wiring%20size%20and%20voltage%20drop.png)
At 2000 watts it shows 2 AWG wire has over twice the drop as 4/0, so two #2 wires should be close to 4/0, which agrees with time2roll's earlier comment about it.
Also, since it looks like #2 AWG is plenty for the 9270, a substantial savings can be had by using a single #2 wire everywhere except the leads from the battery bank to the inverter.
Does that sound correct?
DiskDoctr wrote:
Didn't you have a thread about a Poor man's Trimetric a while back? What ever became of that?
BFL13 wrote:
If he were getting a Trimetric, AFAIK the choices are 100 or 500 and he needs more than 100. However, he is looking at other monitors.
If he were getting a Trimetric, AFAIK the choices are 100 or 500 and he needs more than 100. However, he is looking at other monitors.
Didn't you have a thread about a Poor man's Trimetric a while back? What ever became of that?
It was an eBay gizmo. Mine was too fragile for me and broke, but others here have had some luck with theirs.
It also got complicated where some of the gizmos only read amps into or out of the battery but not both ways, like a Tri, so you have to be careful what you are buying or get two one-way jobs I guess. There is something about their AH counters having a limit? Forget--Mr Wizard has some info on that ISTR.
There were 100a or 200a versions of the one I got ISTR. The Tri choices also relate to voltage decimal point readings, where the 500 shows one and the 100 shows two on the display IIRC. Don't know about the gizmo ones for that. The Tri with one decimal point voltage is ok for government work, but sometimes you want two so out comes the multi-meter.
I needed more than 100 to show inverter amp draws, but also for charging amps. I charge at up to 155 amps at times. (Same as guys with those big inverter/chargers that are eg, 3000w/150a.)
EDIT--on where to use double #2, you need high ampacity from any buss so it will carry the total amps of all the incoming "branches" to the buss. Same with the shunt to battery--it carries the total amps of everything going into the outer end of the shunt.
If it is a pos buss, you fuse each branch wire before the buss according to its individual ampacity, then fuse the fat wire from the buss with a big fuse for that fat wire.
* This post was last edited 06/07/17 07:57am by BFL13 *
DiskDoctr wrote:
So if it surges over 200a, the shunt will burn out, or just max out?
any shunt should only be run max about 80 percent of rating or it heats up and distorts the readings. Yes it will burn open like a fuse at some point such as short circuit.So if it surges over 200a, the shunt will burn out, or just max out?
Don't ask how I know
You could get your set up going with what you have and get a monitor later sometime.
Looks like I'll wait on the shunt, but use a bolt to bond the cables at the point where a shut will be- once I find one
I just ordered 20ft of 4/0 cable. I have to work out the length of cables and ends I need and will get them installed and made up while I'm there.
Looks like I should get some copper bus bars, too?
According to this table, a 1/4" x 1" should handle 400a. I hear 12vdc usually has a bit of derating because of the DC heating, but since 400a is the SURGE rating and the column I checked was the lowest temperature rise, it should be fine, right?
![[image]](http://www.diskdoctor.us/camper/cougar304bhs/CopperBusBarAmpRatings.png)
from this site: Copper bus bar selection
DiskDoctr wrote:
Looks like I should get some copper bus bars, too?
For what? Have you run out of places to connect something?
Looks like I should get some copper bus bars, too?
time2roll wrote:
DiskDoctr wrote:
Looks like I should get some copper bus bars, too?
For what? Have you run out of places to connect something?Looks like I should get some copper bus bars, too?
Maybe not. I was picturing the shunt connector in my diagram, I think.
I can probably wait on that, too
DiskDoctr wrote:
Also, since it looks like #2 AWG is plenty for the 9270, a substantial savings can be had by using a single #2 wire everywhere except the leads from the battery bank to the inverter.Does that sound correct?
works for me...you could use 2 #2 from the inverter.
Also, since it looks like #2 AWG is plenty for the 9270, a substantial savings can be had by using a single #2 wire everywhere except the leads from the battery bank to the inverter.Does that sound correct?
However you can watch the voltage as the PD70 gets the battery voltage up to 14.4 and then just allow some more time for an absorption stage. Time2roll suggests an hour for that, thinking 35 amps on 220AH for a 50-90. With 70 amps on four batts you would have the same time.
A 70 amper on 440AH doing a 50-90 would take about two hours at 70 amps constant to reach 14.4 at 80% (all Bulk stage), then another hour of tapering amps Absorption stage to get from 80 to 90. Total three hours of gen time. You can save an hour of gen time by doing 50-80s instead if you can love with than many AH and you can get the batts fully charged not too long after doing a few of those. It makes for more sulfation to only reach at 80 than to hit 90.
So that only takes a voltmeter and a clock.
EDIT--you can run short wires from the converter over to the inverter and then use the longer fat wires from there to battery. You can still use the 70s second set of terminals for something.
It's still raining but supposed to let up shortly.
I'm planning to get metal strapping cut and weld some reinforcement strut on the bottom of it to install on the tongue to put the truck tool box on it.
Right now I'll just mock it up so I can install batteries and use thin wire to work out the proper lengths and ends needed. I can then take those pieces with me tomorrow to cut and have the ends installed at the shop and bring home "ready made" cables
I am thinking about adding a TSC Horse Stall Mat, cut to shape, under the truck tool box to act as a cushion for the batteries. I don't have enough height in the box for a piece of wood or anything inside.
Here's the box I picked up:
![[image]](http://www.diskdoctor.us/camper/cougar304bhs/LowesTruckToolbox.png)
12 inches wide "just fits"
Should look something like this when finished (not my pic)
![[image]](https://i.ytimg.com/vi/RcFBeBffF8s/maxresdefault.jpg)
Link to his video for anyone interested: Youtube link
2oldman wrote:
works for me...you could use 2 #2 from the inverter.
works for me...you could use 2 #2 from the inverter.
I have arrangements made for the 4/0 tomorrow for those leads. That will allow me to be a bit flexible on the cable routing and mounting point for the inverter
I gotta check the side of the battery cable connections on the inverter.
DiskDoctr wrote:
..the 4/0 tomorrow for those leads. That will allow me to be a bit flexible on the cable routing..
Good luck being 'flexible' with 4/0 ! ..the 4/0 tomorrow for those leads. That will allow me to be a bit flexible on the cable routing..
BFL13 wrote:
Doing 50-90s or 50-80s, a voltmeter cannot tell you when to stop the generator when charging, which is where an ammeter is so useful.
However you can watch the voltage as the PD70 gets the battery voltage up to 14.4 and then just allow some more time for an absorption stage. Time2roll suggests an hour for that, thinking 35 amps on 220AH for a 50-90. With 70 amps on four batts you would have the same time.
A 70 amper on 440AH doing a 50-90 would take about two hours at 70 amps constant to reach 14.4 at 80% (all Bulk stage), then another hour of tapering amps Absorption stage to get from 80 to 90. Total three hours of gen time. You can save an hour of gen time by doing 50-80s instead if you can love with than many AH and you can get the batts fully charged not too long after doing a few of those. It makes for more sulfation to only reach at 80 than to hit 90.
So that only takes a voltmeter and a clock.
EDIT--you can run short wires from the converter over to the inverter and then use the longer fat wires from there to battery. You can still use the 70s second set of terminals for something.
Doing 50-90s or 50-80s, a voltmeter cannot tell you when to stop the generator when charging, which is where an ammeter is so useful.
However you can watch the voltage as the PD70 gets the battery voltage up to 14.4 and then just allow some more time for an absorption stage. Time2roll suggests an hour for that, thinking 35 amps on 220AH for a 50-90. With 70 amps on four batts you would have the same time.
A 70 amper on 440AH doing a 50-90 would take about two hours at 70 amps constant to reach 14.4 at 80% (all Bulk stage), then another hour of tapering amps Absorption stage to get from 80 to 90. Total three hours of gen time. You can save an hour of gen time by doing 50-80s instead if you can love with than many AH and you can get the batts fully charged not too long after doing a few of those. It makes for more sulfation to only reach at 80 than to hit 90.
So that only takes a voltmeter and a clock.
EDIT--you can run short wires from the converter over to the inverter and then use the longer fat wires from there to battery. You can still use the 70s second set of terminals for something.
That sounds like about the time we have planned. Maybe an hour or two in the am, and an hour or two in the eve- unless we need A/C or something big during the day.
A clock? What is this "clock" of which you speak? I thought they weren't permitted in camp? LOL.
It's reassuring the generator time we have and charger should be the right match for the batteries.
You all know I didn't come up with that stuff on my own- YOU GUYS are to blame for the system being "right"
Thanks!
2oldman wrote:
Good luck being 'flexible' with 4/0 !
Good luck being 'flexible' with 4/0 !
LOL!
Now to confirm the grounds.
NOTHING gets ground wires to the battery bank, except the shunt (when added later). It ALL goes to the frame ground? Can it go to different locations on the frame, or best to all be at the same point?
What about inverter? I've read different things about ground it and not grounding it, floating grounds, etc....what is correct?
A/C side is grounded to the ATS, and distribution box, right? They are both grounded to the trailer frame, too?
The "floating ground and problem with a pedestal that is miswired or damaged" has me uncertain. House AC, ground and bond in box and one point to outside ground rod, carry grounds from any other boxes back to that first bonding bar, not in any addon boxes. That I know, but campers...?
That might be a problem
A start up spike on the MW would only last seconds at the most and still be under the 200 amps
There is no single item in the RV that can consume that much power
You would need to run wh and MW at the same time
And you don't have enough battery to run the wh from the inverter
And take showers
What do you expect to do that is going to require extended power over 200 amps
I have a 200 amp shunt
And I have baked potatoes in the mw 5~8 minutes, depending on the potatoes
No problems
MrWizard wrote:
If you run over 200 amps for several minutes
That might be a problem
A start up spike on the MW would only last seconds at the most and still be under the 200 amps
There is no single item in the RV that can consume that much power
You would need to run wh and MW at the same time
And you don't have enough battery to run the wh from the inverter
And take showers
What do you expect to do that is going to require extended power over 200 amps
I have a 200 amp shunt
And I have baked potatoes in the mw 5~8 minutes, depending on the potatoes
No problems
If you run over 200 amps for several minutes
That might be a problem
A start up spike on the MW would only last seconds at the most and still be under the 200 amps
There is no single item in the RV that can consume that much power
You would need to run wh and MW at the same time
And you don't have enough battery to run the wh from the inverter
And take showers
What do you expect to do that is going to require extended power over 200 amps
I have a 200 amp shunt
And I have baked potatoes in the mw 5~8 minutes, depending on the potatoes
No problems
I like potatoes
400a, I was looking to build the wire for the max input/output of the inverter. WH would be on only propane at the time and no A/C or electric griddle
There *may* be solar in our future, but not yet. (Just added that to make everybody cringe, LOL)
Please check this battery bank wiring, I flipped the second set to make wiring simpler...maybe.
![[image]](http://www.diskdoctor.us/camper/cougar304bhs/BatteryBank3.png)
MrWizard wrote:
A 200 amp shunt and meter, is going to more accurate at average RV power loads than a 500 amp shunt and meter
A 200 amp shunt and meter, is going to more accurate at average RV power loads than a 500 amp shunt and meter
But what about the overload situation?
Won't I be limiting myself to 200a, instead of the inverter's max capacity?
2oldman wrote:
Good luck being 'flexible' with 4/0 !
Good luck being 'flexible' with 4/0 !
LOL!
Greetings, I introduce myself here as a new member, I've been monitoring this thread and see one or two issues that may need to be addressed.
I qualify my reply with over 40 years as an EE, I have an MSEE and a PE for over 20 yrs. I have worked in various industries including
Solar power, NASA and process control.
I would like to help here, sharing my professional experience and perhaps contacting a moderator/admin to set up some sticky posts with information and tutorials about solar,batteries and the like..?
My RV experience extends over 15 years, mostly with a toy hauler. the last 10 concentrating on boondocking in this beautiful country. I turned 60 years young this year.!
from the quote.
1. NOTHING gets ground wires to the battery bank, except the shunt.
ans: correct, the load end of the shunt is now your "new" negative terminal or return point.
2. It ALL goes to the frame ground?
ans: Ideally, only one ground point should exist, and this should not carry high current loads. passing high currents through ground is not recommended due to unknown contact and weld resistances. it is better to return high currents through defined conductors to defined points.
3. Can it go to different locations on the frame,
ans: above.
4. or best to all be at the same point?
ans: ideally yes, all the power returns meet at one point, this point could be the battery or the load end of the shunt. also this point is were you would connect to ground.
( imagine the conductors wired in a star with the center point the shunt.. )
also, attempting to draw 2000 watts from a 2S2P string
is very bad for those batteries. you will experience considerable voltage drop.. the internal resistance of T105's is about 0.01 Ohms
typically so using ohms law we have: 0.01 * 200A = 2 Volts.
you have 2P ( now gives (0.01 / 2 ) * 200 A
so you might see 1 Volt of drop. this is on a new battery.. internal resistance increases with age.. so don't expect this high level of performance in a year or two..
I would say from a personal point of view that you are "maxing out"
those batteries and it will have a noticable effect on lifespan.
BTW: my name does not come from smoking power circuits !!! although I have had many close call's.. LOL
OldSmokey wrote:
.. perhaps contacting a moderator/admin to set up some sticky posts with information and tutorials about solar,batteries and the like..?
There is a FAQ, but nobody reads it. .. perhaps contacting a moderator/admin to set up some sticky posts with information and tutorials about solar,batteries and the like..?
RVing FAQ
2oldman wrote:
***Link Removed***
OldSmokey wrote:
.. perhaps contacting a moderator/admin to set up some sticky posts with information and tutorials about solar,batteries and the like..?
There is a FAQ, but nobody reads it. .. perhaps contacting a moderator/admin to set up some sticky posts with information and tutorials about solar,batteries and the like..?
***Link Removed***
thank you for the link..
I'm sure somebody setting about a high current and potentially dangerous project such as this would take time to read advice from professionals ?
the very fact that this post exists is evidence that the poster is seeking education in the art ?
OldSmokey wrote:
I'm sure somebody setting about a high current and potentially dangerous project such as this would take time to read advice from professionals ?
the very fact that this post exists is evidence that the poster is seeking education in the art ?
I'm sure somebody setting about a high current and potentially dangerous project such as this would take time to read advice from professionals ?
the very fact that this post exists is evidence that the poster is seeking education in the art ?
Welcome to the forum!
Feel free to advise away
There is often a difference between knowing things in general and then applying them in a specific way- which is where I am.
I understand the principles and can understand the explanations, but if you've read this thread, it is easy to see how easy it is (for me anyways) to get confused or overlook a simple matter.
Fortunately, good folks are quick to point it out, we all have a chuckle at my knuckle headedness, and we're all happy to see the design and implementation improved accordingly
![[emoticon]](http://www.coastresorts.com/sharedcontent/cfb/images/cool.gif "cool")
I appreciate all who offer suggestions, expertise, and/or experience- both good and bad.
![[image]](http://www.diskdoctor.us/camper/cougar304bhs/Trucktoolbox_Batterybox_sm.png)
Closeup of the proposed connections
![[image]](http://www.diskdoctor.us/camper/cougar304bhs/IMAG8890_sm.png)
I don't have the 4/0 leads from the bank yet, but should be picking up the cable in the am.
The lugs I used are actually 4/0 tinned copper lugs with purple labeling and UL stamps. We used a hammer down lug smasher-cruncher thingy (sorry for the technical jargon, LOL) to make good solid connections.
I tugged and twisted each of the connections. I cleaned with a terminal cleaner the inside of each. I'll wire brush each of the contact parts before final installation.
I ohm'd the first one and it's 0.00 @2k, with a nice spread of conductors around the inside of the lug.
The cables will get zip tied to the carrying handle brackets of the batteries to keep them away from edges, other terminals, top lid areas, etc.
We also had to put about a 30 degree downward bend about 6 inches from each end of the small connecting rod between the latches to clear the tops of the batteries.
The rod would float on top, but might get stiff or jammed, batteries might shift, etc. This way it won't happen. Better safe than sorry
Please double check the wiring, it should match my first diagram, except for the long leads, which will be 4/0 tomorrow.
Enjoy the pics!
DiskDoctr wrote:
But what about the overload situation?
Won't I be limiting myself to 200a, instead of the inverter's max capacity?
MrWizard wrote:
A 200 amp shunt and meter, is going to more accurate at average RV power loads than a 500 amp shunt and meter
A 200 amp shunt and meter, is going to more accurate at average RV power loads than a 500 amp shunt and meter
But what about the overload situation?
Won't I be limiting myself to 200a, instead of the inverter's max capacity?
NO.. you won't
did you even stop to think
that 2800w is a MAX start up surge on say a very large motor
how big a compressor are you going to carry around
how big a jack hammer
how big of an electric arc welder
its 1800w max continuous load aka a large MW or maybe Kureg coffee machine
thats 150 amps max continuous load going slowly up in amps as the batteries go down in voltage
you will never draw 200 amps continuous load aka 2400,
you will never hit 2800 for more than a split second (IF EVER)
you don't have have anything that is going to draw 2400w
certainly NOT 2800w
that inverter won't carry 2800w more than a few seconds even if you had 10 batteries, thats a surge rating, aka motor start
its an 1800w inverter, thats max full load
MrWizard wrote:
how big a compressor are you going to carry around
how big a jack hammer
how big of an electric arc welder
how big a compressor are you going to carry around
how big a jack hammer
how big of an electric arc welder
Funny you should ask that...
![[emoticon]](http://www.coastresorts.com/sharedcontent/cfb/images/biggrin.gif "biggrin")
![[image]](http://i.imgur.com/fsoYbJA.jpg)
Quote:
you will never draw 200 amps continuous load aka 2400,
you will never hit 2800 for more than a split second (IF EVER)
you don't have have anything that is going to draw 2400w
certainly NOT 2800w
that inverter won't carry 2800w more than a few seconds even if you had 10 batteries, thats a surge rating, aka motor start
its an 1800w inverter, thats max full load
you will never draw 200 amps continuous load aka 2400,
you will never hit 2800 for more than a split second (IF EVER)
you don't have have anything that is going to draw 2400w
certainly NOT 2800w
that inverter won't carry 2800w more than a few seconds even if you had 10 batteries, thats a surge rating, aka motor start
its an 1800w inverter, thats max full load
That is reassuring to know, thanks
The MW uses more per than either one,
MrWizard wrote:
I have run a hand held grinder with my inverter, also a skill saw at 12 amps
The MW uses more per than either one,
I have run a hand held grinder with my inverter, also a skill saw at 12 amps
The MW uses more per than either one,
Touche !
First, let me say THANK YOU to all who have contributed and read the posts to make sure I was on the right track for the proper gear
Next, I'll give some feedback from our trip.
1. Xantrex ProSine 1800W is a very nice and standby-efficient model inverter. Much of the time is was 0-1amp shown on the display, occasionally 2 amp. We left it running the whole time, no need to turn it off.
2. Inverter + LED 120V bulbs in our living room slide overhead lights was "nothing" to the inverter or batteries. We also left several 120v LED decorative night lights plugged in and running 24/7
3. GoPower TS-30 30 amp automatic transfer switch worked perfectly! Never missed a beat. Occasional flicker as it switched sources, but not even enough to reset the time on the microwave
4. PD9270 charger/converter worked just fine. Although it did take a while charging at 13.6v before it switched over to 14.3v or whatever. The pendant showed "Boost mode" solid light, which perplexes me. I'll play with it a bit more, maybe I missed something?
5. 4- 6v Duracell GC-2 batteries from Penn Mfg had no problem with our loads, though we did run the generator an hour or so here and there. Sometimes 2 days, sometimes twice a day. Played with it a bit
6. Champion 3100 wireless remote start generator is pretty quiet. Even up close it didn't have the harsh frequencies, rather a muffled soft sound. We ran the house cord, plus a 25ft heavy extension cord out to a rock 'platform' next to a tree so we could cable-lock the generator and have a non-flammable surface to sit it on (though it never got hot). We covered the yellow extension cord with leaves and after cooling, kept the genny covered with a green tarp to protect from rain and reduce the bright yellow 'advertisement' LOL.
7. Inverter quite easily runs the microwave. I don't know how long, but it did fine.
8. Generator quite easily runs the air conditioner.
9. The inverter WILL NOT run the air conditioner (!) Genny ran out of fuel while I was away from camp and the family was there. The genny shut down, the ATS switched the power, the inverter shut down with 'overload shutdown' or some message and beeped an "annoying alarm" as they said, LOL. I turned off the A/C, switched inverter off for a few seconds, turned it back on, no problem. Refilled genny, switched it back automatically, no problem. Not the way I wanted to test that feature, but good to know)
10. Fantastic fan and even Vortex fan don't stress the batteries.
11. Radio, AC LEDs, 12v LEDs, etc are fine with the inverter and batteries. Losing the 'fear' LOL
12. Both slides can be put out, then in, then out again without draining. I don't know the level as I'm not setup for that yet. We arrived almost midnight in the dark and pouring rain, so we just backed in and deployed the slides and removed the plug to the tow vehicle overnight and then put them back in to go fill with water, position, and level the next day....and apologize to each of the neighbors for arriving so late in our diesel
13. 120v cell phone chargers didn't bother the inverter at all.
14. Stovetop percolator makes EXCELLENT coffee! Takes about 30 mins for the 8 cups, but very superior to our electric coffee makers.
15. Cooking indoors (no bacon) was fine, without odor issues if we turned on the vent hood fan and turned the Fantastic ceiling vent fan to IN, it evacuated quite nicely. We'll likely do more indoor cooking now- except for the grillin'
16. I want to look into Solar now
Stove coffee. Melitta
Burner. Outdoor kettle used indoors too
Stainless steel coffee pot. 12 cup.
Heats water 70F to 212F in four minutes.
Got a question. Coleman propane stove versus any RV or home kitchen range...
The Coleman will heat a large pot of anything 3x as fast. Would LOVE a stove top burner one out of the four to do this. Yes, the Coleman is noisy. Because of the pressure regulation between stoves is this impossible?
I think heat to the surroundings would be the primary limit to a stovetop burner with lots of BTUs?
I've used outdoor deep fryers and they make tons of heat, but everything around them gets very hot, too.
For the stovetop peculator, we have to have the burner turned down a little or the flame spills out of the recessed bottom and goes up the sides to be wasted and/or melting the plastic handle
![[image]](http://www.diskdoctor.us/camper/cougar304bhs/IMAG9156_sm.jpg)
![[image]](http://www.diskdoctor.us/camper/cougar304bhs/IMAG9157_sm.jpg)
![[image]](http://www.diskdoctor.us/camper/cougar304bhs/IMAG9158_sm.jpg)
![[image]](http://www.diskdoctor.us/camper/cougar304bhs/IMAG9159_sm.jpg)
![[image]](http://www.diskdoctor.us/camper/cougar304bhs/IMAG9164_sm.jpg)
![[image]](http://www.diskdoctor.us/camper/cougar304bhs/IMAG9163_sm.jpg)
Edit: The inter-battery wires are 2AWG welding wire, the main battery leads go to the inverter terminals and are 4/0 welding wire. The PD9270 connects to the inverter terminals.
Connections at the battery are House DC and electric tongue jack.
I do NOT have FUSES yet or separate grounds for inverter and converter/charger, and my wires to the existing house DC/trailer are too small gauge.
I would heat shrink those cable ends to seal them up before the corrosion starts.
time2roll wrote:
Very nice. My PS1800 ran my 13.5 Dometic air just fine. Not sure why you would have trouble.
I would heat shrink those cable ends to seal them up before the corrosion starts.
Very nice. My PS1800 ran my 13.5 Dometic air just fine. Not sure why you would have trouble.
I would heat shrink those cable ends to seal them up before the corrosion starts.
Thanks
That's a good idea. I have to get some bigger heat shrink to fit over the ends.
You ran your Dometic? I'll have to look into it some more, though I wonder how long the batteries would last?
Although I considered a switch for situations where I might not want the charger to run, I can easily unplug it for those (very uncommon?) situations, plus I have the ability to unplug the charger and power directly with a standard extension cord.
While working on the ATS wiring and such, that is how I got our initial battery charge, using an external extension cord.
Never did get a "Full" charge on the batteries, but should get it after plugging into power here at the house today.
Really wish I had an idea of their capacity, state of charge, remaining capacity, etc. Will have to look into options for that shortly
![[image]](http://www.diskdoctor.us/camper/cougar304bhs/Cougar%20304BHS%20Wiring%20Diagram_5.png)
I have to figure out the shunts, monitoring, chassis grounds and fuses.
I am worried reading that you don't normally turn on your range hood fan every time you light a stove propane burner. (and also remember to open the side vent flap for that fan!)
There is a big warning label on ours that you must always do that. (incomplete combustion , etc, etc)
A few years ago I posted about that, and a surprising number of folks posted that I was being a wuss, and that they never turned on their fans. I even posted a photo of the warning label in our trailer but it didn't change anybody's mind.
Darwin explained how that all works out. Your choice.