Thanks,
John
More likely it's an issue with the rear-end, as in the wrong ratio. Do you know what it is?
With my ol trailer (about that weight) I had no problems with 60 mph on most grades. With the new (heavier) trailer (13,000) 60 can mean winding the engine to 4500 rpm (or higher)
2008 F350SD V10 with an 2012 Arctic Fox 29-5E
When someone tells you to buy the same rig they own, listen, they might be right. When they tell you to buy a different rig then they own, really pay attention, they probably know something you don't.
Have you checked basic maintenance items like the air filter?
My trailer is 12,000 pounds and and I pull 6% grades at 62 MPH.
2000 Ford E450 V10 VAN! 450,000+ miles
2014 ORV really big trailer
2015 Ford Focus ST
You have gained 10 MPH and I think that's about right.
My C with an E450 V-10 has encountered some grades where it drops down to 3rd gear (I think) and rev's up to about 4K or a bit more to hold 55.
And I'm pretty sure that all of the V-10 truck engines are not the same. Seems like I remember that there are at least two distinct versions.....with different displacement and horsepower.
2013 Chevy 3500HD CC dually
2014 Voltage 3600 toy hauler
2019 RZR 1000XP TRE
azdryheat wrote:
Get a diesel and be done with it, no more issues. Towing only a 7,000 pound trailer I doubt you'll be slowing at all. I used to tow a 6,500 pound boat/trailer up some steep grades with my Ford F-250 with a 7.5L gas motor. Speeds were 40-45 mph. I then got a Duramax diesel and the same hills were taken at whatever the speed limit was, usually 60-65 mph and in cruise control. It was a night and day difference. I'll never tow again with a diesel.
Get a diesel and be done with it, no more issues. Towing only a 7,000 pound trailer I doubt you'll be slowing at all. I used to tow a 6,500 pound boat/trailer up some steep grades with my Ford F-250 with a 7.5L gas motor. Speeds were 40-45 mph. I then got a Duramax diesel and the same hills were taken at whatever the speed limit was, usually 60-65 mph and in cruise control. It was a night and day difference. I'll never tow again with a diesel.
Why are you telling the OP to get a diesel and then say you will never tow again with a diesel?
![[emoticon]](http://www.coastresorts.com/sharedcontent/cfb/images/scratchead.gif "scratchead")
jmacpolo wrote:
I started out years ago towing our 7,000 lb trailer with my old chevy 2500 with the 350. I tow mostly in the Sierra and Rocky Mts. I hated the way I had to slow down to 45 mph going up the grades. So after reading what others had said about them, I bought a 2007 Ford 3500 V-10. I have been very disappointed with the power of the V-10. Now I can hold 50-55 mph while going up grades. I thought the v-10 would give better performance than that. Am I expecting too much from this motor, or is there a problem with my V-10?
Thanks,
John
I started out years ago towing our 7,000 lb trailer with my old chevy 2500 with the 350. I tow mostly in the Sierra and Rocky Mts. I hated the way I had to slow down to 45 mph going up the grades. So after reading what others had said about them, I bought a 2007 Ford 3500 V-10. I have been very disappointed with the power of the V-10. Now I can hold 50-55 mph while going up grades. I thought the v-10 would give better performance than that. Am I expecting too much from this motor, or is there a problem with my V-10?
Thanks,
John
John,
I would say your most likely expecting too much from your V10.
'12 Ford Super Duty FX4 ELD CC 6.7 PSD 400HP 800ft/lbs "270k Miles"
'16 Sprinter 319MKS "Wide Body"
You are not going to hurt the V-10 by letting it run from 3 to 4 thousand rpm. You will only see those rpm for brief periods on long steep grades. Yep, you will burn a little more fuel but it will get the job done. Put your foot down and go.
![[emoticon]](http://www.coastresorts.com/sharedcontent/cfb/images/cool.gif "cool")
I have kept up with maintenance. The truck only has 57,000 miles.
I have 410 or 411 or whatever Ford gears Ford put in them in the low 400's.
I went with the V-10 over the diesel because I also had a Lance camper and needed every bit of weight capacity I could get in a 350, and I had been told that letting diesel engines sit for long periods of time w/o being driven was not OK. The truck sits sometimes for several weeks at a time.
I have let it go up to 4000 rpm at times but man it sounds awful when it does and mileage goes from bad to insane.
Thanks again,
John
2011 Crossroads Cruiser 29BHS ( Traded )
2017 Grand Design 303RLS ( Sold )
Currently camperless ( Just taking a break )
2016 Chevy Silverado 2500 4x4 6.0 and 4:10’s
Me and the wife and our two daughters. Life's good!
Thanks!
Jeremiah
TV-2022 Silverado 2WD
TT - Zinger 270BH
WD Hitch- HaulMaster 1,000 lb Round Bar
Dual Friction bar sway control
It’s Kind of Fun to do the Impossible
~Walt Disney~
As far as it being bad to let a diesel sit, that has not been my experience. My truck sits pretty much all winter. So did the one before it. No issues here.
2012 RAM 3500 Laramie Longhorn DRW CC 4x4 Max Tow, Cummins HO, 60 gallon RDS aux fuel tank, Reese 18k Elite hitch
2003 Dodge Ram 3500 QC SB 4x4 Cummins HO NV5600 with Smarty JR, Jacobs EB (sold)
2002 Gulf Stream Sea Hawk 29FRB with Honda EV6010
10 Lincoln MKS Ecoboost
07 Lincoln Navigator
00 Newmar Dutch Star 3851
Dave
2005 Winnebago-Itasca Sundancer 31C
2010 Harley-Davidson Soft tail Deluxe
2014 Harley-Davidson Street Glide Special
1999 Chevrolet Tracker 4X4
SKP # 121272
jmacpolo wrote:
I had been told that letting diesel engines sit for long periods of time w/o being driven was not OK. The truck sits sometimes for several weeks at a time.
I had been told that letting diesel engines sit for long periods of time w/o being driven was not OK. The truck sits sometimes for several weeks at a time.
Several weeks is NOT a long time.
And that is just another example of bad information "I have been told".
This is a terrible post......because it might force me to spend some money !!
![[emoticon]](http://www.coastresorts.com/sharedcontent/cfb/images/wink.gif "wink")
I assume that if fixes the problem of downshifting just as you get to the top of a gentle hill ??
If it really does make a slight improvement in the fuel mileage....or doesn't make it worse.....I'm all over it.
jmacpolo wrote:
I started out years ago towing our 7,000 lb trailer with my old chevy 2500 with the 350. I tow mostly in the Sierra and Rocky Mts. I hated the way I had to slow down to 45 mph going up the grades. So after reading what others had said about them, I bought a 2007 Ford 3500 V-10. I have been very disappointed with the power of the V-10. Now I can hold 50-55 mph while going up grades. I thought the v-10 would give better performance than that. Am I expecting too much from this motor, or is there a problem with my V-10?
Thanks,
John
I started out years ago towing our 7,000 lb trailer with my old chevy 2500 with the 350. I tow mostly in the Sierra and Rocky Mts. I hated the way I had to slow down to 45 mph going up the grades. So after reading what others had said about them, I bought a 2007 Ford 3500 V-10. I have been very disappointed with the power of the V-10. Now I can hold 50-55 mph while going up grades. I thought the v-10 would give better performance than that. Am I expecting too much from this motor, or is there a problem with my V-10?
Thanks,
John
John, you have several problems.
#1. Pulling 14 thousands up a hill at 50 to 55 MPH is jamming! It really is pretty fast.
#2. If you don't wind that V10 up to 4,750 you're not making max HP and you need to make the most HP possible to make it up that hill faster. (The 572 CI engine I drive every other weekend I wind up to 7 grand on every shift so I think your little V10 will live just fine at 4,700 RPM.) (BTW, Ford says that, not just me.)
#3. I don't know where you pull but lets say you're going over Donner pass. You have about 360 HP to start with. By the time you get to the top of Donner pass you're down to about 280 HP. That's not a bunch when you're trying to pull 14K up a hill.
#4. HP takes fuel. Lots of HP takes lots of fuel. You want to go fast or get good mileage? Pick "one." Sorry, but you only get to pick one. 750 HP for me uses about 1.25 gallons of gasoline in about 10 seconds. Now you only have about half that HP but you get the drift of what kind of fuel you're going to burn if you want to make all of your HP and go fast up the hill.
#5. I don't have a HP chart for the V10 but if your winding that engine up to less than 4 grand you're "probably" making less than 300 HP. Couple that with altitude and now you're making somewhere around mid 200 HP.
Bottom line. You want to go fast up a hill. Plant your right foot to the floor and hold it there. The only bad thing that is going to happen is you're going to burn a lot of fuel. I can't help you with that. Remember the pick one I told you about earlier?
![[emoticon]](http://www.coastresorts.com/sharedcontent/cfb/images/biggrin.gif "biggrin")
~ Too many freaks & not enough circuses ~
"Life is not tried ~ it is merely survived ~ if you're standing
outside the fire"
"The best way to get a bad law repealed is to enforce it strictly."- Abraham Lincoln
The 4.10's are OK, but the 4.30's are the best, part of me wishes I would've went with 4.56's.
As far as the 5star tune, best money you can spend at this point. The biggest change is the shift programming. It makes a big difference in towing. No more short shifting and going into O/D too early. Worth every penny!
The diesel guys hate this but it will hang with a stock diesel of similar vintage all day long!
Wife Kim
Son Brandon 17yrs
Daughter Marissa 16yrs
Dog Bailey
12 Forest River Georgetown 350TS Hellwig sway bars, BlueOx TrueCenter stabilizer
13 Ford Explorer Roadmaster Stowmaster 5000, VIP Tow>
A bad day camping is
better than a good day at work!
dodge guy wrote:
I have an 02 Excursion with the V-10 and 4.30 gears. I tow a 9200lb TT with no problems. Combined I'm about 17,500lbs. It'll do 60 with no problem up a mountain! It needs to rev! 4500 all day long!
The 4.10's are OK, but the 4.30's are the best, part of me wishes I would've went with 4.56's.
As far as the 5star tune, best money you can spend at this point. The biggest change is the shift programming. It makes a big difference in towing. No more short shifting and going into O/D too early. Worth every penny!
The diesel guys hate this but it will hang with a stock diesel of similar vintage all day long!
I have an 02 Excursion with the V-10 and 4.30 gears. I tow a 9200lb TT with no problems. Combined I'm about 17,500lbs. It'll do 60 with no problem up a mountain! It needs to rev! 4500 all day long!
The 4.10's are OK, but the 4.30's are the best, part of me wishes I would've went with 4.56's.
As far as the 5star tune, best money you can spend at this point. The biggest change is the shift programming. It makes a big difference in towing. No more short shifting and going into O/D too early. Worth every penny!
The diesel guys hate this but it will hang with a stock diesel of similar vintage all day long!
I was going to say something about the diesel comment until I finished the sentence. lol
Thanks,
John
2004 F-250 XL Super Cab short bed 4x4 V-10/4R100
1977 Chevrolet Scottsdale C-20 Trailering Special 454/TH400
jmacpolo wrote:
Maybe I should be looking at a diesel. What kind of mileage will a diesel get doing 65 up a grade? What kind of mileage do they get while not towing? I an not pulling 14,000 lbs I am pulling a little under 7,000. Which diesel truck will get me up the hill at 65 and deliver the best mileage?
Thanks,
John
Maybe I should be looking at a diesel. What kind of mileage will a diesel get doing 65 up a grade? What kind of mileage do they get while not towing? I an not pulling 14,000 lbs I am pulling a little under 7,000. Which diesel truck will get me up the hill at 65 and deliver the best mileage?
Thanks,
John
On any given grade and weight a diesel will give you around 30% better mileage then a gas rig. If you get 10 with a gas rig a diesel will net you about 13 MPG.
They are all about the same. 19-20 on the Hwy. 16-17 mix and ugly in the city. (It takes a lot of energy to get a big truck up to speed light after light after light.)
![[emoticon]](http://www.coastresorts.com/sharedcontent/cfb/images/eek.gif "eek")
Sorry, but you are pulling around 14K give or take unless your truck and stuff and you are made out of helium.
Again, all of the big 3 get about the same mileage and anybody that tells you different is a fan boi.
My stock 6.0l was an improvement but wasn't day to night to me as some describe it. The worst part of the V10 drivetrain was the trans which was shifted less than smartly and seemed sloppy when its temps increased. The 5/6 sp behind diesel always shifted crisp and never chased gears. Now tuned and deleted is another story but being fair the V10 is a pulling machine in its own right. Nearly bulletproof from Ford only issues it has is an occasional COP going out or spark plug spitting if they weren't installed correctly. I only had to replace COP myself.
Now the big 3 diesels are putting out much more than they did 99-05 when the V10 was used in the Excursion. If they increased the technology on that engine like other gassers and diesels I am sure it would be that much a better engine prolly a hard pressed option to diesel for light to medium loads.
I have driven the 7.3L IDI, powerstroke, 6.0L, 6.4L and of course the 6.7L and technology and progress has done wonders for what is available.
The_real_wild1 wrote:
I was going to say something about the diesel comment until I finished the sentence. lol
dodge guy wrote:
I have an 02 Excursion with the V-10 and 4.30 gears. I tow a 9200lb TT with no problems. Combined I'm about 17,500lbs. It'll do 60 with no problem up a mountain! It needs to rev! 4500 all day long!
The 4.10's are OK, but the 4.30's are the best, part of me wishes I would've went with 4.56's.
As far as the 5star tune, best money you can spend at this point. The biggest change is the shift programming. It makes a big difference in towing. No more short shifting and going into O/D too early. Worth every penny!
The diesel guys hate this but it will hang with a stock diesel of similar vintage all day long!
I have an 02 Excursion with the V-10 and 4.30 gears. I tow a 9200lb TT with no problems. Combined I'm about 17,500lbs. It'll do 60 with no problem up a mountain! It needs to rev! 4500 all day long!
The 4.10's are OK, but the 4.30's are the best, part of me wishes I would've went with 4.56's.
As far as the 5star tune, best money you can spend at this point. The biggest change is the shift programming. It makes a big difference in towing. No more short shifting and going into O/D too early. Worth every penny!
The diesel guys hate this but it will hang with a stock diesel of similar vintage all day long!
I was going to say something about the diesel comment until I finished the sentence. lol
My V10s were quick turn keys only issue was trans which I could have had rebuilt by Woods or BTS and slight increase in towing fuel. My V10 would get 10 mpg towing trailer the 6.0l stock would get 12 mpg, tuned/deleted slighty more. The 6.4l stock wasn't as good (regen) but the 6.7l was slightly better than stock about equal to tuned/deleted but needed DPF fluid and had to be extra sensitive for fuel sources cause was worried about the WIF (water in fuel) issues that gave some owners grief.
My 6.0l would rattle when started cold to allow it to preheat (takes longer to warm up). My tuned/deleted one sounded like a jet when it would kick in high idle to warm up. The 6.4L was quieter and the 6.7. sounded almost like a gasser but there is a price delta for each jump in vintage/technology.
jmacpolo wrote:
Maybe I should be looking at a diesel. What kind of mileage will a diesel get doing 65 up a grade? What kind of mileage do they get while not towing? I an not pulling 14,000 lbs I am pulling a little under 7,000. Which diesel truck will get me up the hill at 65 and deliver the best mileage?
Thanks,
John
Maybe I should be looking at a diesel. What kind of mileage will a diesel get doing 65 up a grade? What kind of mileage do they get while not towing? I an not pulling 14,000 lbs I am pulling a little under 7,000. Which diesel truck will get me up the hill at 65 and deliver the best mileage?
Thanks,
John
midnightsadie wrote:
I agree with the right gears you could pull a freight train.
I agree with the right gears you could pull a freight train.
CONCUR !
I suspect he needs a lower rear axle ratio, like a 3.73 or possibly even a 4.10.
Chevy Sonic 1.8-Honda Passport C70B-Host Mammoth 11.5-Interstate Car Carrier 20-Joyner SandViper 250-Kawasaki Concours ZG1000-Paros 8' flatbed-Pelican Decker DLX 8.75-Ram 5500 HD
midnightsadie wrote:
I agree with the right gears you could pull a freight train.
I agree with the right gears you could pull a freight train.
True, and they are a very good engine in general, however the proverbial freight train would still get pulled slowly at very high rpms uphill at altitude.
To the op, nothing wrong with your engine unless it's not running right.
Look at the stats on your old 350. Likely around 200hp/300ft lbs. look at the V10. Around 350?hp/375ft lbs. just approximately guys. Didn't look it up.
Look at the most powerful recent gassers, 8.1, EcoB, newer 6.x engines. They are around 400/400.
Take all those and lop almost 1/3 off the numbers when you get between 1 and 2 miles up from sea level. Except the ecoboost.
Look at stock diesels in the last 10-15 years. 300/500 ish up to now 400/900+. With many running 1000+ tq with mild tunes. Take away only a couple percent at altitude due to forced induction and you'll get a feel for why your 10 year old V10 doesn't blow your socks off.
Run it with your right leg fully extended going up hill and don't watch the gas gauge! You have a good engine.
2016 Ram 2500, MotorOps.ca EFIlive tuned, 5” turbo back, 6" lift on 37s
2017 Heartland Torque T29 - Sold.
Couple of Arctic Fox TCs - Sold
theoldwizard1 wrote:
CONCUR !
I suspect he needs a lower rear axle ratio, like a 3.73 or possibly even a 4.10.
midnightsadie wrote:
I agree with the right gears you could pull a freight train.
I agree with the right gears you could pull a freight train.
CONCUR !
I suspect he needs a lower rear axle ratio, like a 3.73 or possibly even a 4.10.
Except you didn't read, he says he has 4.10s.....
![[emoticon]](http://www.coastresorts.com/sharedcontent/cfb/images/rolleyes.gif "rolleyes")
One more time...........The OP wants to go faster up hill. That takes more HP. Gears don't give you more HP; only more torque and torque is not HP. If all he needed more torque to the wheels all he has to do is drop a gear. But as Grit points out, this will slow him down even further.
Couple that with the fact that the OP does not like to go above 4,000 RPM but wants to climb hills at a high speed.
To climb that hill at the fastest speed the OP is going to have to hold that V10 to as close to 4,750 as possible. He doesn't seem to want to do this so there is no solution to this problem unless he wants to buy a new diesel. Then he can pull a mountain at high speed and make maximum HP at under 4K RPM and get 30% better mileage while doing so.
![[emoticon]](http://www.coastresorts.com/sharedcontent/cfb/images/awink.gif "awink")
Personally I do not think pulling grades with an RV should be like the pike's peak race. What are folks accomplishing by hammering it going up hill?
It has to be a mind set that I do not understand. I do not give a flip when pulling a long grade when someone blows by me with a big heat contrail coming out the pipe. How much real time is being saved?
dodge guy wrote:
I have an 02 Excursion with the V-10 and 4.30 gears. I tow a 9200lb TT with no problems. Combined I'm about 17,500lbs. It'll do 60 with no problem up a mountain! It needs to rev! 4500 all day long!
The 4.10's are OK, but the 4.30's are the best, part of me wishes I would've went with 4.56's.
As far as the 5star tune, best money you can spend at this point. The biggest change is the shift programming. It makes a big difference in towing. No more short shifting and going into O/D too early. Worth every penny!
The diesel guys hate this but it will hang with a stock diesel of similar vintage all day long!
I have an 02 Excursion with the V-10 and 4.30 gears. I tow a 9200lb TT with no problems. Combined I'm about 17,500lbs. It'll do 60 with no problem up a mountain! It needs to rev! 4500 all day long!
The 4.10's are OK, but the 4.30's are the best, part of me wishes I would've went with 4.56's.
As far as the 5star tune, best money you can spend at this point. The biggest change is the shift programming. It makes a big difference in towing. No more short shifting and going into O/D too early. Worth every penny!
The diesel guys hate this but it will hang with a stock diesel of similar vintage all day long!
The OP would be happier with his V-10 if it had more gear behind it, his trailer isn't all that heavy, so if the truck is properly setup and driven correctly (get used to the sound of some revs!) it would do just fine for his usage. Yes, at the higher altitudes it (and any other NA engine) will loose some power, but again the OP's combined weight isn't that high.
Like Dodge Guy above, I too run a V-10 Excursion which serves as our dedicated tow rig for our 11,000 lb TT. I have regeared it to 4.88s but with my 35" tires it has an effective ratio of 4.39, which makes a big difference in getting the most out of these motors. With our combined weight of approx. 19,000 lbs I have held 60 MPH while fighting heavy truck traffic on I-81 up Fancy Gap in VA. We have only towed all through the Eastern states and haven't made it out West yet but that climb is one of the East's most challenging and our setup did just fine. I do run Banks headers, 5Star tunes and a performance muffler but the single biggest towing performance mod you can do for your V-10 rig is go with the deeper gears. I actually ran the 4.88s with stock sized tires for 2 full years and the thing pulled like a locomotive, better than a stock diesel of the same vintage, same as Dodge Guy's rig. The OP has the higher output 3 Valve V-10 and the much better transmission, so I am very confident that with a change to deeper gears he would be very happy with that 7,500 lb TT in the Western mountains, if he is willing to let the engine work as designed at the higher revs.
WE3ZS wrote:
The OP would be happier with his V-10 if it had more gear behind it, his trailer isn't all that heavy, so if the truck is properly setup and driven correctly (get used to the sound of some revs!) it would do just fine for his usage. Yes, at the higher altitudes it (and any other NA engine) will loose some power, but again the OP's combined weight isn't that high.
Like Dodge Guy above, I too run a V-10 Excursion which serves as our dedicated tow rig for our 11,000 lb TT. I have regeared it to 4.88s but with my 35" tires it has an effective ratio of 4.39, which makes a big difference in getting the most out of these motors. With our combined weight of approx. 19,000 lbs I have held 60 MPH while fighting heavy truck traffic on I-81 up Fancy Gap in VA. We have only towed all through the Eastern states and haven't made it out West yet but that climb is one of the East's most challenging and our setup did just fine. I do run Banks headers, 5Star tunes and a performance muffler but the single biggest towing performance mod you can do for your V-10 rig is go with the deeper gears. I actually ran the 4.88s with stock sized tires for 2 full years and the thing pulled like a locomotive, better than a stock diesel of the same vintage, same as Dodge Guy's rig. The OP has the higher output 3 Valve V-10 and the much better transmission, so I am very confident that with a change to deeper gears he would be very happy with that 7,500 lb TT in the Western mountains, if he is willing to let the engine work as designed at the higher revs.
dodge guy wrote:
I have an 02 Excursion with the V-10 and 4.30 gears. I tow a 9200lb TT with no problems. Combined I'm about 17,500lbs. It'll do 60 with no problem up a mountain! It needs to rev! 4500 all day long!
The 4.10's are OK, but the 4.30's are the best, part of me wishes I would've went with 4.56's.
As far as the 5star tune, best money you can spend at this point. The biggest change is the shift programming. It makes a big difference in towing. No more short shifting and going into O/D too early. Worth every penny!
The diesel guys hate this but it will hang with a stock diesel of similar vintage all day long!
I have an 02 Excursion with the V-10 and 4.30 gears. I tow a 9200lb TT with no problems. Combined I'm about 17,500lbs. It'll do 60 with no problem up a mountain! It needs to rev! 4500 all day long!
The 4.10's are OK, but the 4.30's are the best, part of me wishes I would've went with 4.56's.
As far as the 5star tune, best money you can spend at this point. The biggest change is the shift programming. It makes a big difference in towing. No more short shifting and going into O/D too early. Worth every penny!
The diesel guys hate this but it will hang with a stock diesel of similar vintage all day long!
The OP would be happier with his V-10 if it had more gear behind it, his trailer isn't all that heavy, so if the truck is properly setup and driven correctly (get used to the sound of some revs!) it would do just fine for his usage. Yes, at the higher altitudes it (and any other NA engine) will loose some power, but again the OP's combined weight isn't that high.
Like Dodge Guy above, I too run a V-10 Excursion which serves as our dedicated tow rig for our 11,000 lb TT. I have regeared it to 4.88s but with my 35" tires it has an effective ratio of 4.39, which makes a big difference in getting the most out of these motors. With our combined weight of approx. 19,000 lbs I have held 60 MPH while fighting heavy truck traffic on I-81 up Fancy Gap in VA. We have only towed all through the Eastern states and haven't made it out West yet but that climb is one of the East's most challenging and our setup did just fine. I do run Banks headers, 5Star tunes and a performance muffler but the single biggest towing performance mod you can do for your V-10 rig is go with the deeper gears. I actually ran the 4.88s with stock sized tires for 2 full years and the thing pulled like a locomotive, better than a stock diesel of the same vintage, same as Dodge Guy's rig. The OP has the higher output 3 Valve V-10 and the much better transmission, so I am very confident that with a change to deeper gears he would be very happy with that 7,500 lb TT in the Western mountains, if he is willing to let the engine work as designed at the higher revs.
Listen to Tom! He knows what he is talking about. He is the towing guru on FTE! More in depth than I'll ever be!
The higher numeric diff will allow the ICE to rev HIGHER...therefore more HP delivered
Look up that V10's torque/HP curve at 4K RPM vs something like 5K RPM...the HP WILL be HIGHER
Of course...up to the point where torque drops...then HP will likewise start to drop...
But...the OP wants to stay lower in the RPM range for 'that' ICE...seemingly wanting
It to behave like a diesel...
-Ben Picture of my rig
1996 GMC SLT Suburban 3/4 ton K3500/7.4L/4:1/+150Kmiles orig owner...
1980 Chevy Silverado C10/long bed/"BUILT" 5.7L/3:73/1 ton helper springs/+329Kmiles, bought it from dad...
1998 Mazda B2500 (1/2 ton) pickup, 2nd owner...
Praise Dyno Brake equiped and all have "nose bleed" braking!
Previous trucks/offroaders: 40's Jeep restored in mid 60's / 69 DuneBuggy (approx +1K lb: VW pan/200hpCorvair: eng, cam, dual carb'w velocity stacks'n 18" runners, 4spd transaxle) made myself from ground up / 1970 Toyota FJ40 / 1973 K5 Blazer (2dr Tahoe, 1 ton axles front/rear, +255K miles when sold it)...
Sold the boat (looking for another): Trophy with twin 150's...
51 cylinders in household, what's yours?...
Dave H M wrote:
Turtle, you are preaching to the quire.
Personally I do not think pulling grades with an RV should be like the pike's peak race. What are folks accomplishing by hammering it going up hill?
It has to be a mind set that I do not understand. I do not give a flip when pulling a long grade when someone blows by me with a big heat contrail coming out the pipe. How much real time is being saved?
Turtle, you are preaching to the quire.
Personally I do not think pulling grades with an RV should be like the pike's peak race. What are folks accomplishing by hammering it going up hill?
It has to be a mind set that I do not understand. I do not give a flip when pulling a long grade when someone blows by me with a big heat contrail coming out the pipe. How much real time is being saved?
X2
I really don't understand spending lot's of money to gain 10 minutes pulling a grade. Put the truck in a comfortable mode, sit back and enjoy the drive. As long as you are not a danger to the traffic flow, who cares how fast you are moving up a hard pull.
2013 Springdale 232SRT
2016 F250 XLT, 6.2, 4.30.
dodge guy wrote:
I agree with you guys.
I agree with you guys.
I have ordered the tuner....on sale now BTW.
If it doesn't live up to the glowing praises, "you guys" are in trouble.
BenK wrote:
Depends...on the ICE's torque/hp curve....
The higher numeric diff will allow the ICE to rev HIGHER...therefore more HP delivered
Hmmmmmmm, I have changed gears in my car more times than I can count and it NEVER allowed the engine to rev higher. It rev'ed to 7,500 RPM before the gear change and it rev'ed to 7,500 RPM after the gear change! If the OP does not want to go above 4K he can put 6 to 1 gears in the back and it won't help. In fact, for a given RPM the vehicle will go slower. My tractor has like 20 to 1 gears in it. It's not exactly blazing fast! At WOT in low, low it is cooking along at a blazing 1/2 MPH!
Look up that V10's torque/HP curve at 4K RPM vs something like 5K RPM...the HP WILL be HIGHER
The OP "does not like" to rev his V10 above 4 grand. He said that. His actual words are: "I have let it to up to 4000 rpm at times but and it sounds awful when it does." It does not matter if he looks it up or not. If He won't let at engine rev above 4000 grand he won't get full power out of it.
I don't care WHAT kind of gear he puts in the rear end; it won't help! In fact, with that load he will more than likely slow down!
Of course...up to the point where torque drops...then HP will likewise start to drop...
At 5252 HP will ALWAYS go up and torque will ALWAYS go down. 5252 is where they will cross. ALWAYS! As Mr. Thomas Andrews would say: "it tiz a mathematical certainty."
But...the OP wants to stay lower in the RPM range for 'that' ICE...seemingly wanting
It to behave like a diesel...
Exactly!
Depends...on the ICE's torque/hp curve....
The higher numeric diff will allow the ICE to rev HIGHER...therefore more HP delivered
Hmmmmmmm, I have changed gears in my car more times than I can count and it NEVER allowed the engine to rev higher. It rev'ed to 7,500 RPM before the gear change and it rev'ed to 7,500 RPM after the gear change! If the OP does not want to go above 4K he can put 6 to 1 gears in the back and it won't help. In fact, for a given RPM the vehicle will go slower. My tractor has like 20 to 1 gears in it. It's not exactly blazing fast! At WOT in low, low it is cooking along at a blazing 1/2 MPH! Look up that V10's torque/HP curve at 4K RPM vs something like 5K RPM...the HP WILL be HIGHER
The OP "does not like" to rev his V10 above 4 grand. He said that. His actual words are: "I have let it to up to 4000 rpm at times but and it sounds awful when it does." It does not matter if he looks it up or not. If He won't let at engine rev above 4000 grand he won't get full power out of it.
I don't care WHAT kind of gear he puts in the rear end; it won't help! In fact, with that load he will more than likely slow down!
Of course...up to the point where torque drops...then HP will likewise start to drop...
At 5252 HP will ALWAYS go up and torque will ALWAYS go down. 5252 is where they will cross. ALWAYS! As Mr. Thomas Andrews would say: "it tiz a mathematical certainty."
But...the OP wants to stay lower in the RPM range for 'that' ICE...seemingly wanting
It to behave like a diesel...
Exactly!
I have no idea where all of this RPM phobia comes from? It's an epidemic on RV.net and other places. I've tried and failed to cure it. About the only cure for it is a brand new diesel.
I'll give it one more shot. There is not red line on any modern engine. You can hold your foot to the floor and it won't over rev, it won't blow up or anything else. I will freely admit it will drink fuel like a drunkin sailor!
Cheers!
Mike
Something Old, Something New
2012 F350 SRW, 6.7l Powerstroke, 3.55's front and rear.
2008 Fleetwood Regal 325RKTS
Mike, Carol and our 4 legged "furry child" Kenzie Shweenie Tod
I rechecked the Ford website and for my 2011 Chassis (2012 24' E-350 Nexus), the V-10 reaches max torque of 420# at 3,250 and max HP of 305 at just 4,250. No reason to exceed 4,250 and you will find a lot of that lost mileage alive and well at 3,250 as it is torque that moves you up the mountains.
On long steep grades I am usually running 50 to 55 in 4th at 3,200 rpm and rarely will the 5 speed Torque Shift trans drop down to third kicking up to 4,200 for a brief period of what is usually significant acceleration.
Frankly even at 4,250 my V-10 is just humming along and not all that loudly, conversation in the cab is not negatively impacted. Over the last three+ years and 32,000+ miles we have averaged 9.5 {including 60 hours of generator time}, like clockwork and I usually run at or very near my GVWR (often towing my Harley - bike and trailer just under 1,000#).
If you don't have one get a Scan Gauge and start monitoring your trans fluid temps, use Tow Haul or turn off the O/D and put your foot down and go!
Desert Captain wrote:
I rechecked the Ford website and for my 2011 Chassis (2012 24' E-350 Nexus), the V-10 reaches max torque of 420# at 3,250 and max HP of 305 at just 4,250. No reason to exceed 4,250 and you will find a lot of that lost mileage alive and well at 3,250 as it is torque that moves you up the mountains.
I rechecked the Ford website and for my 2011 Chassis (2012 24' E-350 Nexus), the V-10 reaches max torque of 420# at 3,250 and max HP of 305 at just 4,250. No reason to exceed 4,250 and you will find a lot of that lost mileage alive and well at 3,250 as it is torque that moves you up the mountains.
![[image]](http://i65.tinypic.com/6h4wt1.jpg)
If the OP was lamenting that his V10 was not fast enough towing on the hills why would you suggest him to run at 3,200 RPM and lose 50 more horsepower?
Turtle n Peeps wrote:
If the OP was lamenting that his V10 was not fast enough towing on the hills why would you suggest him to run at 3,200 RPM and lose 50 more horsepower?
Desert Captain wrote:
I rechecked the Ford website and for my 2011 Chassis (2012 24' E-350 Nexus), the V-10 reaches max torque of 420# at 3,250 and max HP of 305 at just 4,250. No reason to exceed 4,250 and you will find a lot of that lost mileage alive and well at 3,250 as it is torque that moves you up the mountains.
I rechecked the Ford website and for my 2011 Chassis (2012 24' E-350 Nexus), the V-10 reaches max torque of 420# at 3,250 and max HP of 305 at just 4,250. No reason to exceed 4,250 and you will find a lot of that lost mileage alive and well at 3,250 as it is torque that moves you up the mountains.
If the OP was lamenting that his V10 was not fast enough towing on the hills why would you suggest him to run at 3,200 RPM and lose 50 more horsepower?
Did you even read my post? I did not recommend running at 3,250 but merely pointed out that is where max Torque occurs. The main reason the OP was unhappy with performance was his reluctance to simply put his foot down and let the V-10 do what it does best {as noted in my first post, et al}.
Max HP will not necessarily get you the best performance vs Max Torque particularly when climbing steep grades.
You recommended (as I recall), running at 4,750, which {besides being absurd}, does nothing but burn more fuel with zero improvement in performance vs 4,250 (max HP). I also noted that peak performance - which is a mixture of speed and efficiency - can almost always be had at less than peak HP.
Quote:
Max HP will not necessarily get you the best performance vs Max Torque particularly when climbing steep grades.
Max HP will not necessarily get you the best performance vs Max Torque particularly when climbing steep grades.
Really? So less HP will get you up the hill faster?
Why won't max HP get me the best performance because I guess I have been doing it all wrong in the race game all of these years. And don't start with the it's two different things because it don't matter if you accelerate a car down the track or accelerate a truck and trailer up a hill it's all the same.Look at the chart. Max HP is max HP.
Turtle n Peeps wrote:
Really? So less HP will get you up the hill faster? Why won't max HP get me the best performance because I guess I have been doing it all wrong in the race game all of these years. And don't start with the it's two different things because it don't matter if you accelerate a car down the track or accelerate a truck and trailer up a hill it's all the same.
Look at the chart. Max HP is max HP.
Quote:
Max HP will not necessarily get you the best performance vs Max Torque particularly when climbing steep grades.
Max HP will not necessarily get you the best performance vs Max Torque particularly when climbing steep grades.
Really? So less HP will get you up the hill faster?
Why won't max HP get me the best performance because I guess I have been doing it all wrong in the race game all of these years. And don't start with the it's two different things because it don't matter if you accelerate a car down the track or accelerate a truck and trailer up a hill it's all the same.Look at the chart. Max HP is max HP.
Performance:
The accomplishment of a given task measured against preset known standards of accuracy, completeness, cost, and speed.
If all you know is foot to the floor fastest is always best I can understand how the definition of "performance" eludes you. When I climb a long steep grade at 3,250 utilizing max torque cruising at 50 getting about 8 mpg how does flooring it to 4,250 which gains me maybe 5 mph at a cost of twice the fuel consumption improve my overall performance?
I'll stand with my statement "Max HP will not necessarily get you the best performance vs Max Torque particularly when climbing steep grades".
Here is why or how...
Most diff ratios are about 10% apart going up or down in ratio from
whatever starting ratio you have
Take a 3.73 diff ratio and go to a 4.1 diff ratio...is about 10% more rev's
per axle rotation
That then means the ICE will spin about 10% more rev's per axle rev...again
all other things being equal (meaning the same tranny gear, TC locked, etc, etc)
Since the ICE is spinning about 10% more rev's...it moves up the HP curve
and take a look at the one provided on this thread (don't know if correct
for the OP's ICE, but for discussion...assume it is correct for the OP's
ICE)...for the same axle speed (AKA rev's...which translates
to tire rev's...which translates to MPH)
That is how gearing multiplies torque and therefore HP via the lower/higher
rev's from the gear box input to output shafts
What meant by it depends on the ICE...as if the cam/etc does NOT support
higher rev's (limited...AKA red line), then mut point...but...it still has more
rev's allowed by the computer...more torque multiplication up or down depending
on the ratio moved from
Getting it moving and/or changing speed is about HP doing work to move it
from a stand still to some speed...or from some cruising speed to a higher
speed...why I say for speed performance...I drive to HP
And when towing I drive to torque...but that is just me...everyone decide
for themselves either just because or after they learn the true difference
between the interrelated torque/HP curve of 'their' ICE...
Quote:
Since the ICE is spinning about 10% more rev's...it moves up the HP curve
and take a look at the one provided on this thread (don't know if correct
for the OP's ICE, but for discussion...assume it is correct for the OP's
ICE)...for the same axle speed (AKA rev's...which translates
to tire rev's...which translates to MPH)
Since the ICE is spinning about 10% more rev's...it moves up the HP curve
and take a look at the one provided on this thread (don't know if correct
for the OP's ICE, but for discussion...assume it is correct for the OP's
ICE)...for the same axle speed (AKA rev's...which translates
to tire rev's...which translates to MPH)
Ben, the higher (numerical) gears you have the slower the wheel speed will be.
EX: Lets say with a 3 to 1 gear with a max red line of 5000 RPM the vehicle goes 100 MPH in high gear.
Now put a 6 to 1 gear in it. Know how fast you can now go at 5000 RPM in high gear? Yep, 50 MPH.
Did you make more HP? Nope. Did the vehicle go faster? Nope. Did you make more torque to the ground? Yep! Twice the torque in fact. It didn't do anything to the HP. Nothing at all.
Think I'm incorrect? Take any vehicle to a chassis dyno and have them dyno it in 1st gear. Then have them dyno it in the gear closest to 1 to 1. Did the vehicle make more HP in 1st gear or 1 to 1?
The fact will be the vehicle will make about the same HP in any gear you chose. If anybody wants to split hairs the vehicle will put more HP to the ground in 1 to 1 by a bit.
Anybody know why?
1) Yes, keep those RPMs up. Even exceeding peak HP can be desirable, when the alternative is to either slow down, or go up to the next gear, which will then be making less HP, since it will be way below peak RPM.
2) Low gearing matters. With 3.73 gear, the V10 won't make peak HP in 3rd gear until you reach a speed that is probably un-safe in most mountain conditions. Also higher-speeds increase HP needs anyways..... Which in the real world means you might be dropping into 2nd gear. Too slow.... 4.30 gears lets you hold 3rd gear and pull the grade with the rest of traffic.
3) 4.30 gears puts peak HP in 3rd gear right about 55 MPH, and you can climb to about 62 MPH without losing out on much steam, but much faster than that and you hit the stock rev limiter. With a tuner and better breathing, you can bump that up to 68 MPH. It won't hurt it. The shift points on the V10 were programmed low because stock breathing makes the HP fall off fast above 4700 RPM. The internals aren't any different from 5.4L applications which spin way faster.
Camping near home at Assateague National Seashore with our wild four legged friends
I'm not a big deep gear fan, but I agree with everything you said about them.
This gear thing all started with 2, 3, and 4 speed transmissions. With low power, and not very many gears you needed to jack up the gears in the back to have and chance of making it up a mountain or have any duty cycle at all. With modern 6, 8 and even 10 speeds and big "POWER" there really is no need to have crazy gears in the rear end anymore.
I remember when Ford came out with their "high power" oil burner the whining really started.
Man, the old timers really didn't like the 340's that Ford put out back. I took one look at the power they were putting out and said to myself; they will be fine. And they were.The biggest problems I see on this forum and a lot of other forums is reluctance to put an engine into its power band. They have some weird phobia about RPM. If you "need" maximum power, you need to put the engines RPM where maximum power is made. In the old days you had to look at charts and grafts and all of that garbage. Now days the vehicles computer does all the work for us. No need to look anything up. Just put your right foot to the floor and you will make all of the HP the engine can make. The computer "will not" let the engine over rev. Not going to happen; EVER!
K9, if you or anybody else wants to learn about gears and power here is a physics forum that answers that question.
Making less power with gears.
Ben here is a good article about what I was talking about. No need to do your own dyno run. They do it for you!
BTW, Merry Christmas to all of you RV'ers out there!
Desert Captain wrote:
Performance:
The accomplishment of a given task measured against preset known standards of accuracy, completeness, cost, and speed.
If all you know is foot to the floor fastest is always best I can understand how the definition of "performance" eludes you. When I climb a long steep grade at 3,250 utilizing max torque cruising at 50 getting about 8 mpg how does flooring it to 4,250 which gains me maybe 5 mph at a cost of twice the fuel consumption improve my overall performance?
I'll stand with my statement "Max HP will not necessarily get you the best performance vs Max Torque particularly when climbing steep grades".
Turtle n Peeps wrote:
Really? So less HP will get you up the hill faster? Why won't max HP get me the best performance because I guess I have been doing it all wrong in the race game all of these years. And don't start with the it's two different things because it don't matter if you accelerate a car down the track or accelerate a truck and trailer up a hill it's all the same.
Look at the chart. Max HP is max HP.
Quote:
Max HP will not necessarily get you the best performance vs Max Torque particularly when climbing steep grades.
Max HP will not necessarily get you the best performance vs Max Torque particularly when climbing steep grades.
Really? So less HP will get you up the hill faster?
Why won't max HP get me the best performance because I guess I have been doing it all wrong in the race game all of these years. And don't start with the it's two different things because it don't matter if you accelerate a car down the track or accelerate a truck and trailer up a hill it's all the same.Look at the chart. Max HP is max HP.
Performance:
The accomplishment of a given task measured against preset known standards of accuracy, completeness, cost, and speed.
If all you know is foot to the floor fastest is always best I can understand how the definition of "performance" eludes you. When I climb a long steep grade at 3,250 utilizing max torque cruising at 50 getting about 8 mpg how does flooring it to 4,250 which gains me maybe 5 mph at a cost of twice the fuel consumption improve my overall performance?
I'll stand with my statement "Max HP will not necessarily get you the best performance vs Max Torque particularly when climbing steep grades".
The OP is looking for performance/speed. So Turtle is correct. The best performance is at max HP. But as you pointed out burning more fuel. But the OP was inquiring about performance not relative fuel economy.
jmacpolo wrote:
Thanks again for all of the replies. When I tow at 3000 and higher RPM we get in the 4-5 mpg range. At 4000 rpm the truck is very loud. I am not normally in a huge hurry when I an towing and never go more than 68mph but when you are on a two lane highway in the Mts and you have to slow down below too much, then you wind up in the truck lanes and stuck behind them going 35-40 mph and losing all momentum.
Thanks again for all of the replies. When I tow at 3000 and higher RPM we get in the 4-5 mpg range. At 4000 rpm the truck is very loud. I am not normally in a huge hurry when I an towing and never go more than 68mph but when you are on a two lane highway in the Mts and you have to slow down below too much, then you wind up in the truck lanes and stuck behind them going 35-40 mph and losing all momentum.
Of course staying at 3,000 RPM with *ANY* diff ratio will still have
the same HP as it shows on the torque/HP chart Turtle posted...but...
the point am trying to make for the OP to 'solve' his complaint is
to change to an even lower (higher numeric) diff ratio so that the
V10 will gain more HP at a higher RPM...but gotta find a way to get
tha point across...
One of the OP's comments is quoted above and in re-reading it, think
the OP wants it all and does NOT understand that in order to have
one aspect...gotta give up something else....
The OP should get a diesel and move up to a higher GVWR/RGAWR TV...that
does get most of what he wants, but still gotta give up something
How come moving to a higher numeric diff ratio and then moving up
about 10% higher RPMs...to get more HP via that is so hard to understand ????
Folks seem to think going to a higher numeric diff will also mean
sticking with the original RPM the OP stated...not my point at all...
Another of course is diesel folks generally like lower numeric and
gasser guys like higher numeric diff ratios...and is another not
an absolute...and another is why the OEMs are coming out with even
more close ratio gears for the trannies
Here is the chart posted earlier and note the higher HP moving higher
in the RPM axis...but as said...up to a point, as the ICE curve
does have a limit as to how high and still gain HP...at some point
both torque & HP will drop off...