Big Toe, Thanks. I really like the new truck (International).
The International looks overloaded, but it is actually way underloaded. It weighs 13,000 lbs less than it's 33,000 GVWR and is using only about half of it's 21,000 lb rear axle weight rating. The rear springs are rated more than the axle, with 23,500 lb main packs, plus overloads, according to the factory build sheet I got with the truck.
The truck was ordered by the Forest Service with the extra heavy rear springs. I don't know why they didn't order it with the 23,000 lb axle too. The 23K axle was available with an air operated locking differential, which was not available in the 21K axle.
The reason the truck sits low in the rear and high in the front is because of the way International builds their 4x4 trucks. They have to use very tall front springs, for the axle and engine oil pan to clear each other. The 4x4's appear to sit about 8" higher in the front than the 2wd's, from what I can tell by comparing with other 2wd 4000 series trucks I run across.
The truck has spacer blocks under the rear springs to lift it up. The rear spring hangers are also mounted lower on the frame than the 2wd trucks, with drop brackets that allow the lower portion of the spring hangers to bolt on below the bottom of the frame rails.
Despite their efforts to increase the rear suspension height, it is not enough to make up the full height difference in the 4x4 versus 2wd front suspension. Possibly that's as far as they could raise the rear, due to driveline angles, or some other issue... I don't know.
I should have taken very accurate before-build and after-build rear height measurements, to know exactly how much the truck squatted. Unfortunately, I didn't do that. However, from all that I can notice from before and after pics and from working on the truck, climbing up and down it 100's of times, relationship between the overloads and their bump stops, etc, it doesn't appear to me the truck sagged more than inch in the rear from what I loaded on it, if it even sagged that much.
I would prefer if the truck did not sit nose-high. It looks stupid. However, I really don't want the rear to sit any higher than it does, even if it can be lifted. It's difficult enough to climb up and down the rear of the bed as it is. Any higher would just make my job harder.
So far as I can see, there is nothing I can do about lowering the front, without risking the axle hitting the engine. So, it is what it is and I accept it...
For size comparison, here is a pic of the other 4x4 F350 parked next to the new truck (I was using the crane to pick the welder off the F350). The F350 has 33" tires and aftermarket heavy rear springs on it.
![[image]](http://i300.photobucket.com/albums/nn7/desertrider33/2015-08-14_15-24-28_579.jpg)
The spacer block under the rear springs is visible here, as well as the drop brackets for the spring hangers, underneath the frame rail.
![[image]](http://i300.photobucket.com/albums/nn7/desertrider33/20160628_063748.jpg)
Here are seen the upper 2 bolt locations in the frame above the spring hangers at both ends of springs, where the spring hangers would mount on a 2wd model.
![[image]](http://i300.photobucket.com/albums/nn7/desertrider33/20160628_063636.jpg)
* This post was edited 07/03/16 05:10am by SoCalDesertRider *
01 International 4800 4x4 CrewCab DT466E Allison MD3060
69Bronco 86Samurai 85ATC250R 89CR500
98Ranger 96Tacoma
20' BigTex flatbed
8' truck camper, 14' Aristocrat TT
73 Kona 17' ski boat & Mercury 1150TB
92F350 CrewCab 4x4 351/C6 285 BFG AT 4.56 & LockRite rear
Chevy Sonic 1.8-Honda Passport C70B-Host Mammoth 11.5-Interstate Car Carrier 20-Joyner SandViper 250-Kawasaki Concours ZG1000-Paros 8' flatbed-Pelican Decker DLX 8.75-Ram 5500 HD
I do have a set of the aluminum accordian steps for my camper, on the other truck. I don't like them as much as another set of steps I have.
These plug into a receiver tube I welded to the rear bumper. They stay on the truck all the time. The steps' tube is long and has 2 pin positions, so they slide out about 6 or 8 inches and are easier to use.
![[image]](http://i300.photobucket.com/albums/nn7/desertrider33/20160628_064142.jpg?t=1467477742)
Bedlam wrote:
The other steps I have seen take a cutout from the deck and a stair well is welded in place that does not extend sideways beyond the deck rub rail. You see these more on bucket trucks.
Yes, I've seen those too. The other steps I have seen take a cutout from the deck and a stair well is welded in place that does not extend sideways beyond the deck rub rail. You see these more on bucket trucks.
Because I'm limited on the max length of the truck, so I can fit it into my shop at night, I couldn't build a low deck extension platform and steps on the back of the flatbed, like the bucket trucks have. It would be nice though.
One idea I have is to build a bi-fold, fold-down stairway, that can also act as a tailgate when up, to keep stuff from falling out the back of the truck. It will make it more difficult to haul over-length items in the bed though, unless I can swing the whole stair sideways out of the way. I have to do more thinking on the design.
Another idea is to get one of those rental box truck loading ramps and mount it under the bed, where that storage box is seen in the pic above. There are benefits and drawbacks to a ramp, which I need to do more thinking on.
I looked at the Glow Steps. They appear very similar to the aluminum folding accordian steps I already have. I think I'll pass on those, for this application.
shartflhs wrote:
Unsubscribing from this topic. It is so far off the original topic and not of interest. People need to learn7-to open new one. Thanks for wasting my time.
Unsubscribing from this topic. It is so far off the original topic and not of interest. People need to learn7-to open new one. Thanks for wasting my time.
You are most welcome. Come back anytime, and we will be quite happy to waste some more. We'll always be here for ya!
BTW, speaking of time, when I compare your 11 total posts, which incudes your complaint above, to Glen's 21,078 posts that he has contributed to the RV.net community over his 13 years of membership, where he has added content that is not only of value to RV'rs around the world, but that is also of value to RV.net in the form of attracting reads and hit counts that generate ad revenue which sustains the kind of member participation that maintains the business case for this forum, where Glen has taken a lot of TIME out of his life to answer questions that folks have had, as well as share his own experiences (including his evolution away from the 7.3L), all of which creates continuing conversation that remains of interest long after the OP has abandoned the thread... then maybe you are the one who should "learn how to open up a new thread" on whatever specific topic interests you.
Perhaps if you spent more time contributing to the forum, rather than just complaining about the forum (at least 10% of your posts are a complaint, a mathematical fact determined without having read any of your other posts), then perhaps you'd feel less like your time was wasted.
Glen... thank you for the thorough evaluation of the reasons you estimate you find the rear deflection in your 4x4 International. Your specific observations regarding spring hanger placement, rear blocks, and front drive axle to oil pan clearance are very relevant to towing with the Powerstroke 7.3L, because the Ford Super Duty trucks that the 7.3L is fitted in have the exact same issues.
Obviously, an engine cannot tow a trailer by itself, not even the vaunted 7.3L. Even the most revered Powerstroke of all time can't pull a trailer from an engine stand. Towing still requires a truck to accompany that engine to get the work done.
The Ford Super Duties of the 99 up era are notorious for excessive rear suspension deflection relative to the overall level trim height of the vehicle. There was even a Ford TSB issued in 1999 that provided a factory approved means of changing the rear blocks from 2" to 4", and vise versa, due to the noticeable rear deflection under load.
The chassis cab F-450/550 trucks had a factory "low deflection" package, where different blocks and U bolts, and in some wheelbase configurations, driveline cardan joints are used, all to address the issue of the rear suspension deflecting to where the truck appears overloaded with the headlights pointing toward the sky, even while the load that causes the deflection is well under the capacity of both the axles and the springs suspending the axle.
So if choosing to tow with a 7.3L equipped Super Duty, one "realistic expectation" to keep in mind is that the rear suspension may deflect more than visually pleasing, even when the loads are well within the rear GAWR. For those unfamiliar with Fords, it may help you to know that there are some Ford approved parts that mitigate this deflection.
And for those why such parts may help or are even necessary, Glen's excellent post regarding his International truck offers an illustrative template toward understanding some of the issues involved.
BigToe wrote:
You are most welcome. Come back anytime, and we will be quite happy to waste some more. We'll always be here for ya!
BTW, speaking of time, when I compare your 11 total posts, which incudes your complaint above, to Glen's 21,078 posts that he has contributed to the RV.net community over his 13 years of membership, where he has added content that is not only of value to RV'rs around the world, but that is also of value to RV.net in the form of attracting reads and hit counts that generate ad revenue which sustains the kind of member participation that maintains the business case for this forum, where Glen has taken a lot of TIME out of his life to answer questions that folks have had, as well as share his own experiences (including his evolution away from the 7.3L), all of which creates continuing conversation that remains of interest long after the OP has abandoned the thread... then maybe you are the one who should "learn how to open up a new thread" on whatever specific topic interests you.
Perhaps if you spent more time contributing to the forum, rather than just complaining about the forum (at least 10% of your posts are a complaint, a mathematical fact determined without having read any of your other posts), then perhaps you'd feel less like your time was wasted.
Glen... thank you for the thorough evaluation of the reasons you estimate you find the rear deflection in your 4x4 International. Your specific observations regarding spring hanger placement, rear blocks, and front drive axle to oil pan clearance are very relevant to towing with the Powerstroke 7.3L, because the Ford Super Duty trucks that the 7.3L is fitted in have the exact same issues.
Obviously, an engine cannot tow a trailer by itself, not even the vaunted 7.3L. Even the most revered Powerstroke of all time can't pull a trailer from an engine stand. Towing still requires a truck to accompany that engine to get the work done.
The Ford Super Duties of the 99 up era are notorious for excessive rear suspension deflection relative to the overall level trim height of the vehicle. There was even a Ford TSB issued in 1999 that provided a factory approved means of changing the rear blocks from 2" to 4", and vise versa, due to the noticeable rear deflection under load.
The chassis cab F-450/550 trucks had a factory "low deflection" package, where different blocks and U bolts, and in some wheelbase configurations, driveline cardan joints are used, all to address the issue of the rear suspension deflecting to where the truck appears overloaded with the headlights pointing toward the sky, even while the load that causes the deflection is well under the capacity of both the axles and the springs suspending the axle.
So if choosing to tow with a 7.3L equipped Super Duty, one "realistic expectation" to keep in mind is that the rear suspension may deflect more than visually pleasing, even when the loads are well within the rear GAWR. For those unfamiliar with Fords, it may help you to know that there are some Ford approved parts that mitigate this deflection.
And for those why such parts may help or are even necessary, Glen's excellent post regarding his International truck offers an illustrative template toward understanding some of the issues involved.
shartflhs wrote:
Unsubscribing from this topic. It is so far off the original topic and not of interest. People need to learn7-to open new one. Thanks for wasting my time.
Unsubscribing from this topic. It is so far off the original topic and not of interest. People need to learn7-to open new one. Thanks for wasting my time.
You are most welcome. Come back anytime, and we will be quite happy to waste some more. We'll always be here for ya!
BTW, speaking of time, when I compare your 11 total posts, which incudes your complaint above, to Glen's 21,078 posts that he has contributed to the RV.net community over his 13 years of membership, where he has added content that is not only of value to RV'rs around the world, but that is also of value to RV.net in the form of attracting reads and hit counts that generate ad revenue which sustains the kind of member participation that maintains the business case for this forum, where Glen has taken a lot of TIME out of his life to answer questions that folks have had, as well as share his own experiences (including his evolution away from the 7.3L), all of which creates continuing conversation that remains of interest long after the OP has abandoned the thread... then maybe you are the one who should "learn how to open up a new thread" on whatever specific topic interests you.
Perhaps if you spent more time contributing to the forum, rather than just complaining about the forum (at least 10% of your posts are a complaint, a mathematical fact determined without having read any of your other posts), then perhaps you'd feel less like your time was wasted.
Glen... thank you for the thorough evaluation of the reasons you estimate you find the rear deflection in your 4x4 International. Your specific observations regarding spring hanger placement, rear blocks, and front drive axle to oil pan clearance are very relevant to towing with the Powerstroke 7.3L, because the Ford Super Duty trucks that the 7.3L is fitted in have the exact same issues.
Obviously, an engine cannot tow a trailer by itself, not even the vaunted 7.3L. Even the most revered Powerstroke of all time can't pull a trailer from an engine stand. Towing still requires a truck to accompany that engine to get the work done.
The Ford Super Duties of the 99 up era are notorious for excessive rear suspension deflection relative to the overall level trim height of the vehicle. There was even a Ford TSB issued in 1999 that provided a factory approved means of changing the rear blocks from 2" to 4", and vise versa, due to the noticeable rear deflection under load.
The chassis cab F-450/550 trucks had a factory "low deflection" package, where different blocks and U bolts, and in some wheelbase configurations, driveline cardan joints are used, all to address the issue of the rear suspension deflecting to where the truck appears overloaded with the headlights pointing toward the sky, even while the load that causes the deflection is well under the capacity of both the axles and the springs suspending the axle.
So if choosing to tow with a 7.3L equipped Super Duty, one "realistic expectation" to keep in mind is that the rear suspension may deflect more than visually pleasing, even when the loads are well within the rear GAWR. For those unfamiliar with Fords, it may help you to know that there are some Ford approved parts that mitigate this deflection.
And for those why such parts may help or are even necessary, Glen's excellent post regarding his International truck offers an illustrative template toward understanding some of the issues involved.
Big Toe ,how many give a **** about these 14-18 year old antiques . The OP just wanted some real world towing with a 7.3 Superduty . He's overloaded with the weight he wants to tow, he didn't need any info about welding trucks or whatever you guys wandered off to.
I love some of you guys, and your good old boy club ,talking about these vintage relics. I got a clue for you this is 2016. We got out of the 80's ,and 90's long ago.