Coast Resorts Open Roads Forum: Question to all Vision 19.5 wheel users

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Topic: Question to all Vision 19.5 wheel users

Posted By: Tamnative on 08/02/15 01:18pm

I was doing my pre-camper load up tire pressure ,check lug nuts torque etc. when I came to 2 lugs that didn't seem right. I was not able to get them to spec's. As it turned out it appears that the shop that did my front end alignment over tightened the nuts to the point that they are almost 1/4" deeper than the rest and that is without getting them to torque spec's. I will be taking the truck back to the shop that did this tomorrow. These are brand spanking new wheels and tires and this is the only time that they would have been removed. I had checked the torque on them right after I got them and all was good then.I have had problems in the past with tire shops that is why I always check.
My question is what type of lug nuts did they use on your Vision wheels? Here is a link to the ones that they used on mine: http://www.visionwheel.com/accessories/
I didn't think it would be possible to bury a lug nut into a rim like this without snapping the lug.
Any other suggestions would be helpful as I we planned on leaving Thurs. of next week but it may not happen.
I forgot to mention that the part no. on the lug nut is 3809L

2005 Ford F-350 ex-cab Lariat 4x4 srw 6.0 Powerstroke
2008 Bigfoot 10.4

Posted By: bigfootford on 08/02/15 02:06pm

When you loosened the nuts that were recessed were they REALLY tight?

Was there a lot of galling of the wheel's aluminum lug mating surface?

I have taken mine off several times for various reasons, never seen anything like what you described.

I would call Vision and see what they say.. I would be very wary that the lugs recessed that bad.

The only way they get recessed is by OVER torquing. The shop that did this is going to go into denial mode eh?

My lugs are the same as yours.

Jim

2000 2500 9.6 Bigfoot,94 F250, Vision 19.5, Mich 245/70XDS2's, Bilstein shocks, air bags/pump, EU2000, PD 9260,Lifeline 100ah, 200W. solar, Morningstar Sunsaver 15A/ display panel, Trimetric, Delorme/laptop, Holux gps rec,led lights, Wave-3 heat.

Posted By: Tamnative on 08/02/15 02:37pm

Thanks Jim,
No they were not overly tight almost all the lugs needed to be tightened but when I got to these 2 I new something was wrong after I tried to tighten them and the wrench never "clicked" I thought the stud was stripped so I took the nuts off and that was when I saw what was happening. It was as if the nut sank into the aluminum,I didn't think that could happen. The guy must have been on his cell phone or something. I was using a Snap-on torque wrench by the way.

Posted By: bigfootford on 08/02/15 02:55pm

Tamnative wrote:

The aluminum that gets displaced by the nut recessing because of over torque should have caused a bulge around the perimeter...and should be very visible!

If it is not maybe vision did it in the mfg process....

Did you make sure that your lug nuts are all the same length.. hahaaaaa just asking in case!

Jim

* This post was edited 08/02/15 03:02pm by bigfootford *

Posted By: AH64ID on 08/02/15 03:13pm

Are you sure the front tires came off for an alignment? I don't think that is standard practice.

I would pull the wheels and compare the lug surfaces and wheel mounting surface.

Mine are on and off a couple times a year without issue.

-John

2018 Ram 3500-SRW-4x4-Laramie-CCLB-Aisin-Auto Level-5th Wheel Prep-Titan 55 gal tank-B&W RVK3600

2011 Outdoors RV Wind River 275SBS-some minor mods

Posted By: Tamnative on 08/02/15 05:40pm

AH64ID wrote:

They had to pull a tire off to check for balancing as there were no weights on the wheel,turned out that they used "beads"for balancing.

Posted By: Tamnative on 08/02/15 05:43pm

bigfootford wrote:

Tamnative wrote:

They are all the same nuts. I will check for bulges but the way the wheel is made it may not show.

Just a thought,maybe it was caused when they put it on the balancing machine?

Posted By: AH64ID on 08/02/15 05:59pm

Due to the amount of force required to compress a wheel I would not suspect the alignment company, but rather a defective stud, lug nut, or wheel.

If it is the wheel there will be multiple indications once you remove the wheel from the truck.

As you can see the wheel mounting surface of the rim is quite thick.

[image]

* This post was edited 08/06/15 10:07pm by an administrator/moderator *

Posted By: Tamnative on 08/02/15 08:37pm

AH64ID wrote:

As shown in your picture the mounting surface is thick, where the studs in question are the chamfer is now much deeper than the rest. I checked the lugs and they are all the same,the studs are fine, but on a second look I can see a piece of aluminum in one of the holes. I also made sure that the wheel was tight against the hub. I am fairly certain that the cause was from a lug gun. This is not the first time I have had problems with a wheel company putting the lugs on with a gun only and over tightening them. But it is the first time I have see this. I would take a picture but to add insult to injury my camera won't work.

* This post was edited 08/06/15 10:07pm by an administrator/moderator *

Posted By: wcjeep on 08/02/15 09:07pm

This really sounds like the lug nuts were NOT torqued to spec. When the wheel starts to wobble the lug nuts start removing aluminum. This makes it impossible to torque later. The wheel sounds like it's done. Be sure to fully inspect the studs for damage. With Aluminum wheels all lug nuts must be properly tightened. Steel wheels are more forgiving.

I have done this type of damage on my offroad Jeep. Entirely my fault.

Posted By: AH64ID on 08/02/15 09:11pm

Did you retorque them after the first 50-100 miles?

Posted By: Tamnative on 08/02/15 09:26pm

wcjeep wrote:

I took the truck in had new Vision wheels and new tires installed.
Drove approx.5mi. home checked the torque with a Snap-on torque wrench and brought to 150 lbs. none were loose it left the shop with about 100-125 lbs. (just a guess).
I then took it to get the front aligned and have them check the wheels for balancing as they had no weights, they found that a balancing beads were used when they checked ( I assume they only had to check one tire to determine this).
I then drove 2 miles home and rechecked the torque that is when I found the problem on the right front wheel with the 2 lugs.
So this is what is leading me to believe that it was done with a lug gun at the alignment shop. I don't think I have put 50 mi.on the truck since I got the wheels.

Posted By: bigfootford on 08/02/15 10:46pm

Tamnative wrote:

bigfootford wrote:

Tamnative wrote:

They are all the same nuts. I will check for bulges but the way the wheel is made it may not show.

Just a thought,maybe it was caused when they put it on the balancing machine?

The lug nuts that I have are the same as yours according to the part number.. That said they are taper mating not flush/flat...

Depending on the truck, mine and yours are not hub centric, at least mine are not....

When I mount my tires I am always cautions to work the nuts down and center the rim to the nuts. Some shops, I have watched them put aluminum wheels on without centering manually... ugggg.. Steel rims center pretty good, Aluminum not so good and will gouge the mating surface.

Jim

Posted By: Tamnative on 08/04/15 11:19am

AH64ID wrote:

Does anyone have a photo of the back side of a Vision Ford wheel?
The wheel here has a nice flat surface that mounts to the hub.
The wheels that I have, have a recess behind the lug hole the size of a large thick washer. The lug nut started to pull through and there are stress cracks around the hole. The wheel does not look like it was made right.

* This post was edited 08/06/15 10:06pm by an administrator/moderator *

Posted By: AH64ID on 08/04/15 12:38pm

Did you check your other 3?

Posted By: Tamnative on 08/04/15 12:41pm

Not yet

Posted By: Tamnative on 08/06/15 12:03pm

[IMG]http://i839.photobucket.com/albums/........_P1010003.jpg" border="0" alt="[image]"> border="0" alt="[image]">

AH64ID wrote:

Did you check your other 3?

This is what the other 3 look like from the back,notice the machining around each lug.

[IMG]http://i839.photobucket.com/albums/zz320/Tamnative/P1010003.jpg"[/IMG][/img]

Posted By: Tamnative on 08/06/15 12:06pm

I can never get the pictures from photobucket to post.

Posted By: luv2skyski on 08/06/15 12:29pm

When posting from Photobucket:
Under "share links" - upper right - copy the "direct" link (you should only have to single click and it will automatically copy). Now on rv.net click the little envelope/mountain icon (5th from left) and paste the link then hit finished. I've never had a lot of luck with the IMG link. For some reason it works at first then it stops working in a couple of hours. Weird.

Dave.

Thanks Dave, then change the width to 640.

Wayne
Moderator

* This post was edited 08/06/15 10:05pm by an administrator/moderator *

Posted By: Tamnative on 08/06/15 12:32pm

Thanks

Posted By: bigfootford on 08/06/15 01:22pm

What the heck are the recessed part for in each hole?

My rims are not like that nor are Tamnative's. Is it the difference of ford etc?

BTW, when you post a picture, put 640 into the width (not height) and the pix will fit better and Reddog1 will not have to work so hard.....Believe me he goes way beyond duty moderating this TC forum... I personally could not do it....

[image]

Jim

Thanks Jim.

Wayne
Moderator

* This post was edited 08/06/15 10:15pm by an administrator/moderator *

Posted By: Tamnative on 08/06/15 01:54pm

bigfootford wrote:

What the heck are the recessed part for in each hole?

My rims are not like that nor are Tamnative's. Is it the difference of ford etc?

BTW, when you post a picture, put 640 into the height and the pix will fit better and Reddog1 will not have to work so hard.....Believe me he goes way beyond duty moderating this TC forum... I personally could not do it....

[image]

Jim

Jim,

These ARE the Vision 19.5 wheels that I took off my truck.I have since put the stock tires back on. I am glad that I am not the only one that thinks there is a problem here [emoticon]

Posted By: AH64ID on 08/06/15 01:55pm

There is something wrong, IMHO, as the lug torque doesn't have direct contact with the WMS.

I would be contacting whomever you bought them from.

Posted By: bigfootford on 08/06/15 02:44pm

Tamnative wrote:

These ARE the Vision 19.5 wheels that I took off my truck.I have since put the stock tires back on. I am glad that I am not the only one that thinks there is a problem here [emoticon]

Are those cracks at the holes at the top of the rim?

That counter sinking is very strange...

A discussion with the dealer is needed... Maybe even a call to Vision if things go the wrong direction.

Jim

Posted By: Tamnative on 08/06/15 04:01pm

bigfootford wrote:

Tamnative wrote:

These ARE the Vision 19.5 wheels that I took off my truck.I have since put the stock tires back on. I am glad that I am not the only one that thinks there is a problem here [emoticon]

Yes they are cracks, the dealer said they will replace the wheel but that is as far as they will go. I have been emailing Vision wheel back and forth and still haven't gotten much as far as any answers.
I will keep everyone here posted as to the outcome as I see this as a hazard.

Posted By: bigfootford on 08/06/15 04:07pm

Tamnative wrote:

bigfootford wrote:

Tamnative wrote:

These ARE the Vision 19.5 wheels that I took off my truck.I have since put the stock tires back on. I am glad that I am not the only one that thinks there is a problem here [emoticon]

Reference this thread via the email to the Dealer and Vision or whomever you are communicating with there.

Jim

Posted By: billtex on 08/06/15 07:40pm

Cracks at lug holes = lug centric vs hub centric wheels?

Could be...

2020 F350 CC LB
Eagle Cap 850
25'Airstream Excella
"Good People Drink Good Beer"-Hunter S Thompson

Posted By: bigfootford on 08/06/15 07:47pm

billtex wrote:

Cracks at lug holes = lug centric vs hub centric wheels?

Could be...

No... There should be no recessed milling under the hole! It should be flat just likeAH64ID's post. Check his picture. Mine are not recessed, they are flat just like his.

Jim

Posted By: AH64ID on 08/06/15 07:52pm

billtex wrote:

Cracks at lug holes = lug centric vs hub centric wheels?

Could be...

All SRW Vision 19.5's are lug centric.

You can see mine are not countersunk.

* This post was edited 08/06/15 08:02pm by AH64ID *

Posted By: bigfootford on 08/06/15 07:55pm

AH64ID wrote:

All SRW Vision 19.5's are lug centric.

What does that have to do with the milling out under the hole?

Jim

Posted By: AH64ID on 08/06/15 08:00pm

bigfootford wrote:

AH64ID wrote:

All SRW Vision 19.5's are lug centric.

What does that have to do with the milling out under the hole?

Jim

Not a thing.

It was for the comment before yours and just clarifying about how the wheels mount.

Posted By: billtex on 08/06/15 08:01pm

bigfootford wrote:

AH64ID wrote:

All SRW Vision 19.5's are lug centric.

What does that have to do with the milling out under the hole?

Jim

May have a lot to do with the failure...

Posted By: AH64ID on 08/06/15 08:03pm

billtex wrote:

bigfootford wrote:

AH64ID wrote:

All SRW Vision 19.5's are lug centric.

What does that have to do with the milling out under the hole?

Jim

May have a lot to do with the failure...

The failure is most likely due to the missing materiel and not the style of centering. Look at my wheels, they are also lug centric and don't have the milling. With the machineing error lug centric will place more presssure on the failure point than hub centric but it is still a bad wheel.

* This post was edited 08/06/15 08:25pm by AH64ID *

Posted By: Tamnative on 08/06/15 09:00pm

On the front of the wheel it is milled for a conical lug nut which would be standard for all these wheels but in the back of mine it is milled 1/8"+ behind the lug hole leaving no material directly behind the lug hole making the actual thickness of the wheel that the nut clamps to much thinner thus weaker.
As far as being hub centric Vision has stated that they were hub centric wheels.
On my truck a 2005 F-350 the hub is 124.9 MM and the hole in the wheel is 125.2 MM which would mean it is .3MM larger or .012" which is about as thick as a piece of paper. I will let you guys decide if they are hub centric or not certainly close if not.
Hope this clarifies things a little.

Posted By: bigfootford on 08/06/15 10:41pm

The way I see it is the milling of the recessed part of the holes are on the wrong side for hub centric... They would recess for the washers that usually are under the lug nuts...for the outside of the rim.

Non Hub centric would have the tapered holes and no recessed milling on the inside..
This to me is a mfg issue.

Jim

Posted By: bigfootford on 08/06/15 10:41pm

AH64ID wrote:

billtex wrote:

bigfootford wrote:

AH64ID wrote:

All SRW Vision 19.5's are lug centric.

What does that have to do with the milling out under the hole?

Jim

May have a lot to do with the failure...

Agree!

Jim

Posted By: bigfootford on 08/06/15 10:43pm

Anyone have a vision about Vision?

They are a good company and I believe they will right this situation.

Jim

Posted By: billtex on 08/07/15 08:29am

From Visions website;
What is the difference between hub centric and lug centric? Should I use a hub centric ring?
Factory wheels have a center bore that is designed for each specific car, which places the stress of centering the wheel on the mounting hub of the car. After-market wheels are designed to fit a variety of vehicles. If mounted without a hub centric ring, these wheels will be centered primarily by the lug nuts, which can cause vibrations. It is advisable that you use a hub centric ring

Did you use the recommended spacer ring?

Keep in mind, these are heavily loaded trucks we are talking about. You need to have that load properly distributed...which is NOT on the lugs.

Posted By: AH64ID on 08/07/15 08:47am

Lug vs Hub is primarily about centering. Once the wheel is mounted the bulk of the load is carried by the clamping force.

Their FAQ is about centering which deals with balance and not the load.

That is also a genertic FAQ and I found that the ring was not advisesd/required with the Type 81's. Vision doesn't even sell rings that would work, which they would if they thought they were required. They are talking about car wheels, which is what they make adapter rings for.

Tamnative, I have found most hubcentric applications to have 0.1mm of difference between the hub and wheel bore. Becuase there is no other method of centering it has to be very tight.

It always amazes me how many people think that the load transfers to the hub bore. If there is a gap, and there always is, even 0.1mm is a gap, then the load isn't being transfered to the hub bore. If the hub is touching on one side it isn't on the other and the torque on the lugnuts keeps the wheel from moving the bore to the hub as you drive.

The lug nut clamping force is what holds the wheel to the WMS under load.

If you are having vibration problems then look into a ring, but most rings are nylon, plasitc, or thin aluminum which further disproves their load carrying abilities.

Posted By: bigfootford on 08/07/15 09:24am

AH64ID wrote:

Nice write up and 100% correct.

Jim

Posted By: billtex on 08/07/15 09:33am

bigfootford wrote:

AH64ID wrote:

Nice write up and 100% correct.

Jim

This is just one of many sources that turned up in a google search that would disputes that. They all indicate that the hub DOES bear the load and that is exactly the issue with using lug centric wheels.
I'm no wheel expert, don't even have a dog in this fight as I run OE wheels.
But this sure makes sense to me.

Good luck, be safe.

Posted By: AH64ID on 08/07/15 09:40am

I have read plenty of things that claim the weight rides on the hub but if you stop for a second and think about it then it really doesn't make sense. There is a gap and weight doesn't ride on air... 0.1mm is enough for centering and balance but not enough for load distrobution.

Posted By: bigfootford on 08/07/15 10:04am

billtex wrote:

Lug vs Hub is primarily about centering.

This is just one of many sources that turned up in a google search that would disputes that. They all indicate that the hub DOES bear the load and that is exactly the issue with using lug centric wheels.
I'm no wheel expert, don't even have a dog in this fight as I run OE wheels.
But this sure makes sense to me.

Good luck, be safe.

A good article by a Tire/wheel EXPERT!

Guess we all could weigh the difference about the shear strength of 8 studs and the friction of the rim to hub along with the holding strength of the taper of the lugs... V/S Hub centering. I believe that would be worthless...

1000's of the HEAVY HAULER 19.5's Vision rims out there... Not Centric, doing just fine.

Well here is an example of an OEM wheel, dually at that....Centric!

From this thread:

http://www.rv.net/forum/index.cfm/fuseac........d/tid/28480118/srt/pa/pging/1/page/4.cfm

[image]

Jim

Posted By: Tamnative on 08/07/15 11:36am

The problem I am having has nothing to do with hub/lug centric issues at this point. It has to do with the added machining on the wheel to hub mating surface i.e on the BACK of the wheel, there is a void that has been machined into it making the material that the lug tightens to much thinner. That is where the cracks occurred.

Posted By: bigfootford on 08/07/15 11:45am

Tamnative wrote:

Exactly.. Nothing to do with centric/non centric...

Jim

Posted By: Tamnative on 08/14/15 04:40pm

I just got a call from the tire shop and the replacement rim just came in,I will find out Monday if it is the same as the damaged one but I suspect that it will be. Regardless,all the others have the same machining on the back. The people at Vision have not called me after a multitude of emails so I am going to try and get a contact number Monday and see if I can get some answers. At this point I would not recommend using these wheels,especially if you had a load on the truck like a camper or 5th wheel.

Posted By: bigfootford on 08/14/15 05:09pm

Tamnative wrote:

Your are saying all Vision wheels or 19.5 heavy haulers with the inside recessed holes?

Hopefully we can get an answer from Vision..

I would think that Les Schwaub would find out in a heart beat... Take a bad rim down there and have a discussion....

Jim

Posted By: Tamnative on 08/14/15 08:11pm

I don't know about the other series wheels,I am talking about just the 19.5 81A Heavy Haulers, the ones that you see on this site. I don't know when they started with the machined back plate or if it was just a bad batch that they are not aware of. I just know I have $2000 of tires and wheels that I don't want to use because of the failure of the one I had. I don't feel comfortable running them with the camper on the truck.

Posted By: bigfootford on 08/14/15 08:51pm

Tamnative wrote:

I'm with you! This really needs to be resolved and anyone with Vision rims needs to check and see it they have that recess... This is a very bad problem!

Thanks for your persistence and if you get no answers some of us will...

Keep us informed.

Jim

Posted By: Buzzcut1 on 08/14/15 10:01pm

Wow one failure, and all the rims are bad..did a google search for Vision heavy hauler wheel failure ( and many variations on the wording) and only this post came up here and on the Diesel Stop (same Poster). One would think if it was widespread I could find more. Anyone else finding more reports?

2011 F350 6.7L Diesel 4x4 CrewCab longbed Dually, 2019 Lance 1062, Torqlift Talons, Fast Guns, upper and lower Stable Loads, Super Hitch, 48" Super Truss, Airlift loadlifter 5000 extreme airbags

Posted By: Tamnative on 08/14/15 10:18pm

Buzzcut1 wrote:

I am thinking that this design change or manufacturing flaw whatever it is,is new. But one only has to look at the pictures to see the difference and the cracks around the lug nut hole. If the ones you have on your truck looked like this would you continue using them. There isn't even 100 miles on them.

Posted By: Buzzcut1 on 08/14/15 10:28pm

If it was only one out of four and I got a new one yes I would. I would regularly check them and keep checking forums for other posts. Every so often something from every MFG breaks you just need to weigh the numbers of units build vs failures. so far I have only heard of your one. Sort of like my Toyo tread seperation. Turns out there was a reacall on one batch. I have toyos on both of my cars and on my truck just a different model of tire and batch

* This post was edited 08/14/15 10:44pm by Buzzcut1 *

Posted By: Tamnative on 08/14/15 10:54pm

Buzzcut1, Look at the pictures at the beginning of the thread, there is one that shows a nice smooth back with no grooves machined in them,that is how they are supposed to look,those aren't mine. The one with the grooves machined in the back are the ones I got and all 4 are like that. 1 wheel had 2 cracked lug holes that I just happened to see. The wheels have only been on the truck for 2 weeks and I only saw it because I was going to load the camper and I did a walk around the truck. I just got lucky. The last time these wheels were even touched was when they were installed. I only got these for peace of mind. If I have to check them for cracks all the time I will keep my stock wheels,which I put back on the truck. There is almost 1/8" of flange material that has been removed from the back of a wheel that is about 1/2" thick.I want to know why and if that is how they now make them.If so I will sell them as I don't want them.

Posted By: Buzzcut1 on 08/14/15 11:09pm

You have to do what you have to do for your own comfort and thats all that matters.

Posted By: bigfootford on 08/15/15 12:07am

There should be no recess cut on any wheel on the inside of the rim. This situation is a manufacturing machining mistake, not a flaw..

Jim

Posted By: Tamnative on 08/18/15 08:28pm

I got a replacement from the tire shop and got a reply from Vision Wheels. It was like talking to a wall but the gist of it is,they do this to ALL there wheels. I am sure that I didn't get through to them that this wasn't a wheel for a car or an ATV and I don't think they see a difference. Any way I give up, I'm just going to sell them. I personally will not recommend them to anyone for use on a truck hauling anything. I don't know when they started doing this but if you have them on your truck I would certainly keep an eye on them,or see if they have a relief in the back. Just for peace of mind if nothing else.

Posted By: bigfootford on 08/18/15 11:28pm

NTSB time....

Easy to file a complaint. That way it's on record.

I am going to take my computer to LES Schwab and show them the thread and pictures. See what they say.

Jim

Posted By: billtex on 08/19/15 06:20am

Tamnative wrote:

...the gist of it is,they do this to ALL there wheels.

And that is the point I was trying to make re; lug centric vs hub centric.
Failure mode likely had nothing to do with the little countersink.
Draw your own conclusions...

Posted By: AH64ID on 08/19/15 09:17am

billtex wrote:

Tamnative wrote:

...the gist of it is,they do this to ALL there wheels.

And that is the point I was trying to make re; lug centric vs hub centric.
Failure mode likely had nothing to do with the little countersink.
Draw your own conclusions...

You are so stuck on this... look at my lug centric wheels pictured above it is NOT what they do to all their wheels.

Lug centric or Hub centric would strain on the recess and that recess is the failure point.

Posted By: Tamnative on 08/19/15 09:19am

billtex wrote:

Tamnative wrote:

...the gist of it is,they do this to ALL there wheels.

And that is the point I was trying to make re; lug centric vs hub centric.
Failure mode likely had nothing to do with the little countersink.
Draw your own conclusions...

If the relief wasn't there it would not have happened. Any time wheels with this relief are removed and are mistakenly over tightened this can occur. That is why I recommend checking them after they have been removed by a shop. And I would further recommend using a hand held torque wrench to tighten. This isn't the first time I have gotten a vehicle back from a shop for wheel related service to later find that the lugs were either to loose or way to tight.
How many times has anyone been on the side of the road with a flat only to find that the lugs are to tight to remove with your lug wrench? Or you have to have someone step on the end of the wrench to get them loose.

Posted By: billtex on 08/19/15 09:41am

AH64ID wrote:

billtex wrote:

Tamnative wrote:

...the gist of it is,they do this to ALL there wheels.

And that is the point I was trying to make re; lug centric vs hub centric.
Failure mode likely had nothing to do with the little countersink.
Draw your own conclusions...

No...I am not "stuck" on anything. Just looking at the evidence and expressing my theory. I haven't seen any other factors expressed here that would lead to this type of failure (radial stress fractures).

I have no dog in this fight, don't like after market wheels for heavy duty applications for a number of reasons (threads like this are one of them...Aftermarket are OK for bling...but IMO not for "work").

As others have mentioned, proper seating torque is critical as well so as not to over stress the bolt. But the bolts were not the issue here.

Anyway, glad no one got hurt, and it looks like the OP has made a decision to move on also.

Posted By: AH64ID on 08/19/15 10:11am

I'll take properly built 4500 lbs aftermarket wheels any day over good OEM 3200lb wheels. I'll work the hell out of aftermarket wheels without question.

Not all aftermarket wheels are created equal, and neither are all OEM's. I have seen plenty of bent/cracked OEM GM wheels over the years but never had any issues (aside from ratings) on OEM Dodge wheels.

Posted By: bigfootford on 08/19/15 11:04am

Umm I found this post over in the Turbodiesel forum:

http://www.turbodieselregister.com/threads/251026-Lug-Centric-19-5-vision-wheels

Update to what I said previously in this thread I had to order two new front wheels because the el-cheapo clear coat that Vison uses on their machine finish "type 81 heavy hauler" wheels was failing. After 10,000 miles of summer use only. Disappointing to say the least.

Anyhow, the wheels with the failed finish were 3 years old, and were lug-centric (coned lug nuts and loose tolerance on hub hole). The new replacement front wheels are hub-centric (hub piloted) with a flat washer type of lug nut. So it appears that Vision recently changed their design on the wheels.

Interesting.

Posted By: AH64ID on 08/19/15 11:19am

Interesting. Their website specs do not reflect that change.

8 on 6.5 has a hub more of 124.5mm and our axles are 121.3mm, which means they are not hub centric.

* This post was edited 08/19/15 11:30am by AH64ID *

Posted By: Pete_k on 09/02/15 03:57pm

Glad my Rickson 19.5's were not cut like that. Went down to the shed to check them just now. And there flat and nice and thick. Ran them on my 2004 2500HD for a few years no issues at all on these.
[image]

* This post was edited 09/02/15 04:52pm by Pete_k *

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Posted By: Tamnative on 09/02/15 07:50pm

Pete_k wrote:

Are those Vision wheels? They don't look anything like mine but they do look like the Alcola"s I had on my 97 F-250.

Posted By: Steelhog on 09/02/15 10:07pm

That photo of the wheel with the missing material around the bolt holes and the cracks is totally inconsistent with how alloy wheels are machined. I sold machine tools for 25 years including wheel lathes and NEVER saw a spotface or counterbore on the face that contacts the hub. To do that would add a machining operation which adds cost and weakens the wheel. I'm wondering if those wheels were altered by a wacko tire shop or a third party. Just looking at the photo it appears the counterbores look freshly machined while the rest of the wheel has some road grime. Something very wrong was done to those wheels either by mistake or on purpose but whatever the case I cannot believe they left the factory like that. ANY manufacturer that would not immediately recall a wheel like that or gives you a run around is crazy. Reporting this "manufacturing error" to the DOT an CC'ing Vision might get somebody's attention.

Posted By: Pete_k on 09/06/15 03:40pm

Tamnative wrote:

Pete_k wrote:

Are those Vision wheels? They don't look anything like mine but they do look like the Alcola"s I had on my 97 F-250.

They came from Rickson and had Rickson wheels on the invoice.
Pete

Posted By: Kayteg1 on 09/06/15 06:45pm

I have no opinion about wheels in question, but all high-tech mag wheels do have undercut under the bolt holes.
What I have seen on most is the ring cut along as you can see on the picture, but there might be different design.
Point is that wheels stil need some thickness under the bolt and aluminium is not forgiving about multi fold over-torquing like "impact wrench monkey" like to use.

[image]

Posted By: Tamnative on 09/07/15 08:38pm

Steelhog wrote:

These wheels are brand new, only a few miles on them.

Posted By: BigToe on 05/25/16 07:42am

Tamnative (Took me a second to figure out that you are a native of a nearby mountain!)...

A small recess machined around each stud hole on the back side of the wheel is not uncommon for aluminum SRW truck wheels. My stock 3/4 ton GM wheels have a similar recess. Rather than try and explain why in words, I found a few photos online that more succinctly explain what the recess is there for...

[image]

These spring retaining washers hold the rotor on during vehicle production. There is usually only one or at most two mounted per rotor. They are not mounted on all 8 studs (or all 6, or 5, as the case may be) They are also not necessary in the vehicle's function or service, but if a fully flat faced wheel is mated to a rotor where these production rotor retaining washers have not been removed, then that can present a wheel vibration problem, along with accelerated pad and rotor wear.

Since what a tire shop employee does cannot be controlled (something you are quite aware of), the wheel manufacturers began machining a recess into all the stud holes, so that no matter if the spring retaining washer is removed or not, and no matter which stud it happens to be on, and no matter which way the wheel is clocked, there will be no interference from the washer that would keep the wheel from being flat against the rotor mounting plane.

I think at the very least someone at Vision could have taken the time to explain this to you when you asked.

Posted By: HMS Beagle on 05/25/16 11:05am

In reading the thread and looking at the pictures, I kind of figured that retaining washer was what the spot faces were for. The problem with them is that the aluminum surrounding the hole will be loaded in bending stress because the aluminum directly under the nut has been machined away. Normally it would be loaded in compression by the nut. Not a good idea generally speaking, with very careful engineering, attention to fatigue limits, and good controls on exactly how they get mounted and torqued maybe you can get away with it - but here in the real world, not a good idea.

Bigfoot 10.4E, 2015 F350 6.7L DRW 2WD, Autoflex Ultra Air Ride rear suspension, Hellwig Bigwig sway bars front and rear

Posted By: Tamnative on 05/25/16 08:05pm

HMS Beagle wrote:

This was my point exactly when I originally posted this,I have since gotten rid of the wheels.

Posted By: crosscheck on 05/25/16 09:40pm

Just finished 9000km on new 19.5 Michelin XDS-2 245/70r , some rough roads all with the TC. This is my 3rd set of 19.5 tires all on the same Vision wheels. No issues at all. The Visions do not look as pretty as the day I bought them 9 years ago, but i trust them to carry a decent load over rough county.

I would buy them again but looks like they will be buried along with me after my last wilderness camping trip.

Dave

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Posted By: Tamnative on 05/26/16 11:24am

crosscheck wrote:

Did yours have the recess in the back around the lug holes or was the back flat like the stock wheels?

Posted By: jimh406 on 05/26/16 11:37am

I'm thinking that if the Visions had a significant problem, we'd be hearing more about it. I had mine on my SRW for around 8 years without issues.

I'm not saying there isn't a bad set out there somewhere, and you actually have to tighten them appropriately and use different lugnuts ... at least on the Fords.

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Posted By: crosscheck on 05/26/16 01:47pm

Tamnative wrote:

crosscheck wrote:

Did yours have the recess in the back around the lug holes or was the back flat like the stock wheels?

Don't know for sure and as they are on the truck as we speak, will not be be coming off in the near future.

Dave

Posted By: BigToe on 05/28/16 08:13am

HMS Beagle wrote:

Here, in the real world, GM put literally millions... not an exaggeration, but actually millions... of RPO PYO aluminum truck rims with the back side recess for the retaining washer on new trucks and suvs, sold around the real world, including places without good controls or torque wrenches, for 8 continuous years. These wheels were forged throughout the world, in Alcoa's foundries in the US as well as Superior' foundries in Hungary.

I only speak about these particular aluminum wheels because I happen to own 3 sets of them, and only want to speak from personal experience. 3x4x8=96 hole opportunities to personally observe, and I've never had any of them crack at the nut seat, despite the relief machined into them. In 17 years of reading about the vehicles that originally came with these wheels, I've never read of anyone else's cracking.

I'm just pointing this out because it seems doubtful that an OEM manufacturer as large as General Motors could get away with producing millions of copies of a truck wheel for almost a decade in markets around the world that had to be so "carefully mounted". That's a lot of real world numbers to condemn out of hand the concept of cutting a relief for the retaining washer so that the wheel will mount flat and perpendicular against the rotor flange.

Posted By: Buzzcut1 on 05/28/16 08:23am

three years now on my Visions with no problems and of all the guys on this board running them only one has reported an issue.

Posted By: HMS Beagle on 05/28/16 09:22am

It's kind of like Porsche hanging the engine out in the back trunk. Not a good idea, but you can get it to work. I wonder if GM has better engineering resources than Vision?

Rough calculation: 1" diameter by 3/8" thick (as estimated by the OP) is 1.17 sq in cross section, shear failure in cast aluminum 10,000 psi, so shear failure at 12,000 lbs, clamping force on 5/8-11 bolt torqued to 150 ft-lbs is 14,400. This is why I am suspicious.

Posted By: BigToe on 05/28/16 12:38pm

HMS Beagle wrote:

shear failure in cast aluminum

GM's oem PYO wheels are forged, not cast aluminum.

.

Posted By: HMS Beagle on 05/28/16 02:42pm

BigToe wrote:

GM's oem PYO wheels are forged, not cast aluminum.

.

And the Visions? Highly doubtful....

Alcoa forged wheels use 6061 alloy, if properly heat treated it can be about 60 percent stronger than cast. Even so, I'll bet a beer that an uneducated finger on a modest impact gun can pull the stud land out of them. Bring yours over and we'll give it a try? [emoticon]

Posted By: jimh406 on 05/28/16 02:48pm

Yeah those Porches will never work. [emoticon]

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