Coast Resorts Open Roads Forum: Avion truck campers

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Topic: Avion truck campers - Hundreds of photos

Posted By: 69 Avion on 07/23/12 06:27pm

The stove is finally back in. I had to readjust the counter face one more time because the right wing isn't level with the floor. I had to make the counter top level with the floor, not the wing. The counter face needed to be perpendicular to the floor and the counter top, not the top of the right wing. That took a lot of extra time.

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Ford F-350 4x4 Diesel
1988 Avion Triple Axle Trailer
1969 Avion C-11 Camper

Posted By: 69 Avion on 07/24/12 04:09pm

Today I cleaned up the area where the new stainless steel black water tank will go. I painted and it looks real nice.
I wish that I could say the same for the ABS pipe that wasn't glued properly. I was starting to fix it when I came to the conclusion that the only way to fix it is to replace it. I sure would like to meet the person that originally installed it. I have yet to meet any professional in the plumbing industry that has had a leak on ABS DWV pipe. You may get leaks in a solder joint, but not ABS. This thing had several leaks in the joints that I tested and anything above the shower I didn't test. It had about a 50% leakage rate. Now that is "quality". They didn't even use ABS solvent cement. The only ABS pipe that I left in was the vents above any of the original joints. Since there are no joints up there I figured that they couldn't screw that up.

Posted By: ticki2 on 07/24/12 05:55pm

At this point I'm wondering why you are even endeavoring to work on this beast , so far I haven't heard one positive comment , except for the jacks . Must have been a lemon from day one .

'68 Avion C-11
'02 GMC DRW D/A flatbed

Posted By: 69 Avion on 07/24/12 07:02pm

ticki2 wrote:

At this point I'm wondering why you are even endeavoring to work on this beast , so far I haven't heard one positive comment , except for the jacks . Must have been a lemon from day one .

You don't know what is wrong until you get it apart. The structure seems fine, but many of the details are just bad workmanship. I wonder where the QC people were? I will post pictures of the ABS joints so everyone can see the problems. Any plumber will recognize the issue. Having a 50% leak rate on a water test that is at the tremendous presure of a 2" water column (not 2', or 10' required by code in homes)is just terrible.
Just straightening the counter top and cabinets took a couple of days. For those who have actually taken their Avion campers apart they know how hard the closet is to get out. I had it in and out about 6 times before it was right. The problem was thinking that they could just go back in and everything would be fine. That camper was $30,000 in todays money. I think that it was quite a deal in 1969, and I realy like the design, but problems with the workmanship was never part of the deal. You can't buy one like it today, or I already would have. You can't see things like the bad joints behind the covering. The last time it was used was when one of the copper water lines broke from rubbing against a copper LP line, while I was deer hunting with it almost 30 years ago. I'm just glad that the water line broke first. A simple piece of rubber would have kept that from happening. Maybe my family did get a lemon back in 1969, but I don't think so. Another reason that I bring these points up is that I'm betting that my Avion isn't the only one with these problems. If someone is rebuilding theirs, it gives them an opportunity to see if they have the same issues. I would hate for someone to have their camper all the way down, and put it back together just to have leaks that were easily accessible.

Also, I'm fixing many things that are bad, but have nothing to do with poor workmanship. My leaking Black Water tank has nothing to do with installation. It is old and the AZ heat deteriorated it. That isn't anyone's fault and replacing it doesn't bother me at all.
Off the top of my head, here is a list of items that I replaced that have nothing to do with poor workmanship, but just old age.
Refrigerator
Water heater
Counter Top (note: I shouldn't have used the original as a pattern)
Roof Vent
Upholstery
Mattress
Table
Water pump
Water Tank
Some Cabinetry
Flooring (ugly, but it protected my interior floor)
Curtains
Wall Covering
Lights, all (interior and exterior)

Having to replace items because of poor workmanship does bother me, especially for what these campers cost.
Maybe I expect too much from the manufacturer, but I doubt it. For those that find my problems usefull, I hope that it helps them find and fix their campers.

Posted By: 69 Avion on 07/24/12 08:59pm

Here is a picture of the black water tank area prepared for the new Black Water tank. This is before I removed the ABS pipe.
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As promised, pictures of the original ABS joints. I suggest that everyone check theirs if they are doing a rebuild. Some of the joints still have dirt in them, and most of what you see isn't glue.

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In this picture you can see where water ran down it over time and the build up in the joint.
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Most of the pictures show no visible signs of glue. Where there is signs of glue it is a clear (probably yellowed with age) glue and not ABS Solvent Cement. No wonder they leaked.
Tomorrow I will post pictures of what the joints should look like.

* This post was edited 07/24/12 09:11pm by 69 Avion *

Posted By: 69 Avion on 07/25/12 07:28am

For those who are interested, this is what an ABS joint should look like.
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It takes about 10 seconds longer to do it right. With a file, the inside of the pipe should be reamed and the outside of the pipe should be beveled to glue it properly. Glue (ABS solvent cement) should be applied to the pipe fist and then the fitting. The pipe is then insterted into the fitting and twisted slightly, to it's proper location. Notice the neat buildup of glue around the fitting and onto the pipe.
I guarantee that this joint will not leak.

Posted By: 67avion on 07/25/12 01:14pm

I am following your work with great interest. I appreciate the notes on the ABS. However, I always assumed that I would replace all of the pipes in the camper because of their age, workmanship notwithstanding. Fifty years is a long time with the jostling and creaking of a TC.

Also, once we figured how to remove the back cabinet it came out and went back in without a great deal of effort. Perhaps there was an issue with quality in the camper that you are restoring, but it hasn't been our experience.

Having said that, there is no question about the quality of your workmanship. It is superb.

Posted By: 69 Avion on 07/25/12 04:39pm

67avion wrote:

ABS pipe was fairly new in the 1960s. Much of the plastic in the camper is deteriorated because of the AZ heat. The good part of the AZ weather is that the camper structure, wood included, is in excellent shape. However, the interior was one of the worst that I have seen in the pictures on the internet. I wasn't going to change the ABS pipe because it really wasn't deteriortated, even though most of the other types of plastic were deteriorated. It looks almost brand new. This is a testament to how good the ABS pipe is. I'm still not changing the top of the vent lines because there is nothing wrong with them once I removed all the lower fittings. I had no intention of disassembling the entire bathroom until the original Black Water tank leaked. That is understandable after 43 years in the heat. It was during the testing of the gray water tank that I started finding leaks and during the disassembly of the bathroom that I found more of the workmanship issues. I did notice that the dirty arm from the kitchen sink was crooked and I planned on fixing it right there. I'm sure glad that I pulled out all of the fittings. For those that aren't doing entire rebuilds, I suggest that you check your pipes, because they can do a lot of damage.

Picture of the dirty arm removed from the camper. Do you see a problem within this picture?
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Picture of old piece and new piece.
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When I started rebuilding this camper I didn't plan on changing out my ABS, or my copper water pipe until I found bulged pipes from a sag in the line so that it couldn't drain. You can see the unsupported line in this picture.
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I also didn't plan on changing the LP lines until I found Galvanized pipe in the LP system. That is against code.

I am lucky with the camper in that the basic structure is one of the best I've seen. Check out the wood in the bathroom. (this was posted earlier)
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They don't get much cleaner than that. The little discoloration is from leaking plumbing. If it hadn't been for that the area would look perfect. Not bad for 43 years old.

As far as the closet, mine was real hard to get out the first time because it was forced into the corner area. I had to remove some original flooring just to get it out. The problem with bringing it back in, checking the "fit" and redoing it until I got it right wasn't the weight, but trying to remember how I got it in and out. As you know, they only go in and out one way. Another issue that I haven't addressed yet is the top shelf in the closet isn't braced anywhere in the rear left side. It was bowed real bad from items being placed on the shelf and after many years the entire shelf sagged. Have you braced yours? I was thinking about running some aluminum down the wall, vertically, until I hit an aluminum rib (I need to know what is behind the interior panel) and brace it that way. I would like to know what other folks have done, or did you have that problem. I did reglue the "arm" that is on the shelf, but by itself it isn't strong enough.

Posted By: rfuerst911sc on 07/26/12 03:35am

What is your shower floor pan like ? Mine is quite flimsy and when I attack my restoration later this year that is one area that needs attention. Mine seems to flex a LOT and especially where the floor drain is I'm sure it leaks like crazy. I haven't used my camper yet I purchased it as a project. I have followed this thread from the begining and have learned a lot from all that have posted.

Posted By: 69 Avion on 07/26/12 07:01am

rfuerst911sc wrote:

My shower pan has a small crack in the fiberglass and I am having a fiberglass expert fix the crack and paint all of the bathroom fiberglass a "parchment" color to match my new toilet. I need to have him extend the lavatory basin cover down 1-1/2" because I am lowering my floor area where the closet flange is by 1-1/2". The new toilets aren't as low as the original so in order to have a reasonable height, I bought a low toilet but I still needed to lower the closet flange, otherwise my toilet would have been 20" high. At the same time I am having the new black water tank raised 1" for more capacity and less plywood above it.

Good luck with your restoration. Keep us informed on how it goes.

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