MasterBoondocker wrote:
You are WRONG ...in so many ways. And WHERE in the heck do you get your info ? .....
No pistons ? .... there are many sets of NEW pistons available.
Better heads ? .. the 413 ? --- YES. They are MUCH better heads for the RV application. ...... better cooling capacity, valve size and quality, seats, angled plugs, valve rotators - ETC. The 440 head does not hold a candle to it... PERIOD.
The TQ carb ... it is a bolt-on deal.
The normal 440 block ? ... is in no way comparable to a 413. The 413 is a TRUCK block -- compared to a 440 "car" block ? ....what have you been smokin' ? You would rather have a 400(that are famous for thin-wall-blocks) to a 413 ? ...THIS just SHOWS how much you know about Mopars.
And you can just BOLT-IN a 440 ? ... in a 413 RV application ?? .... WrongO again Ford guy !
STICK with your Ford school-bus...we are talking Mopars here.
Jarlaxle wrote:
What is better? Let me count the ways...
More torque (displacement is torque).
Parts actually, you know, AVAILABLE. (Nobody makes 413 pistons anymore.)
Better heads.
Most had a ThermoQuad from the factory, saving the trouble of changing over.
Crank is a wash, unless it's a 440-3, which uses the 6-pack crank & rods. A 440 block (any 440 block, from the 60's to 1978) is plenty strong for any street engine. Give me a 440 over a 413, every application, every time, no exceptions. Heck, I'd rather have a 400 than a 413.
And yes, shrouding (or clearance, on some aftermarket heads) IS a factor with big-valve heads on a 413's smaller bore. The best thing about a 413 is you can sell it on eBay and bolt in a 440 with no other modifications. There is no Earthly reason to use a smaller-displacement engine with identical packaging.
What is better? Let me count the ways...
More torque (displacement is torque).
Parts actually, you know, AVAILABLE. (Nobody makes 413 pistons anymore.)
Better heads.
Most had a ThermoQuad from the factory, saving the trouble of changing over.
Crank is a wash, unless it's a 440-3, which uses the 6-pack crank & rods. A 440 block (any 440 block, from the 60's to 1978) is plenty strong for any street engine. Give me a 440 over a 413, every application, every time, no exceptions. Heck, I'd rather have a 400 than a 413.
And yes, shrouding (or clearance, on some aftermarket heads) IS a factor with big-valve heads on a 413's smaller bore. The best thing about a 413 is you can sell it on eBay and bolt in a 440 with no other modifications. There is no Earthly reason to use a smaller-displacement engine with identical packaging.
You are WRONG ...in so many ways. And WHERE in the heck do you get your info ? .....
No pistons ? .... there are many sets of NEW pistons available.
Better heads ? .. the 413 ? --- YES. They are MUCH better heads for the RV application. ...... better cooling capacity, valve size and quality, seats, angled plugs, valve rotators - ETC. The 440 head does not hold a candle to it... PERIOD.
The TQ carb ... it is a bolt-on deal.
The normal 440 block ? ... is in no way comparable to a 413. The 413 is a TRUCK block -- compared to a 440 "car" block ? ....what have you been smokin' ? You would rather have a 400(that are famous for thin-wall-blocks) to a 413 ? ...THIS just SHOWS how much you know about Mopars.
And you can just BOLT-IN a 440 ? ... in a 413 RV application ?? .... WrongO again Ford guy !
STICK with your Ford school-bus...we are talking Mopars here.
The 440 heads are better. They have open chambers, hardened valve seats, better flow. The 440-3 has valve rotators.
As I have already pointed out, any 440 block is perfectly fine for ANY street engine. An unmodified 440 block will hold up to 6000+RPM & 600HP. Ditto for a 400 block...600HP is no problem. They're not as thick as the 383 or 440, but, well...it's not an issue. That, and throw a cut-down 413 or 440 crank in a 400 block for a nice 452 stroker...or offset-grind the crank to a BB Chevy rod bearing size for 474ci. The 400 has the largest bore of any Mopar big-block.
How, pray tell, is a 440 different from a 413 externally? They're both RB engines...other than possibly different balance weights (just use a zero-balance converter & B&M flexplate if it's a 440-3...regular 440 is internal-balance), they're the same.
John and Elizabeth (Liz), with Briza the size XL tabby
St. Bernard Marm, cats Vierna and Maya...RIP. ">
Current rig:
1992 International Genesis school bus conversion
Jarlaxle wrote:
The 440 heads are better. They have open chambers, hardened valve seats, better flow. The 440-3 has valve rotators.
As I have already pointed out, any 440 block is perfectly fine for ANY street engine. An unmodified 440 block will hold up to 6000+RPM & 600HP. Ditto for a 400 block...600HP is no problem. They're not as thick as the 383 or 440, but, well...it's not an issue. That, and throw a cut-down 413 or 440 crank in a 400 block for a nice 452 stroker...or offset-grind the crank to a BB Chevy rod bearing size for 474ci. The 400 has the largest bore of any Mopar big-block.
How, pray tell, is a 440 different from a 413 externally? They're both RB engines...other than possibly different balance weights (just use a zero-balance converter & B&M flexplate if it's a 440-3...regular 440 is internal-balance), they're the same.
The 440 heads are better. They have open chambers, hardened valve seats, better flow. The 440-3 has valve rotators.
As I have already pointed out, any 440 block is perfectly fine for ANY street engine. An unmodified 440 block will hold up to 6000+RPM & 600HP. Ditto for a 400 block...600HP is no problem. They're not as thick as the 383 or 440, but, well...it's not an issue. That, and throw a cut-down 413 or 440 crank in a 400 block for a nice 452 stroker...or offset-grind the crank to a BB Chevy rod bearing size for 474ci. The 400 has the largest bore of any Mopar big-block.
How, pray tell, is a 440 different from a 413 externally? They're both RB engines...other than possibly different balance weights (just use a zero-balance converter & B&M flexplate if it's a 440-3...regular 440 is internal-balance), they're the same.
The 440 heads ? ...which heads are for the 440 only ? There are NONE. .... and for 99.99% of the applications that apply to people HERE on rv.net the RV/Truck/Industrial heads are better. YES .. the regular B-engine heads have better flow ... but that is not needed in THIS application. There are very few people here that are that comcerned with operating an engine in the 5500-6500 rpm range. Most gas engine RV applications operate in the 2000 to 3000 range. The 440-3 has valve rotators? ... I have pulled-apart a dozen or so of these motors and NONE have had them. In which service manual does it say that they were installed on a 440-3 ?
You "point out" stuff that does not apply AGAIN to a typical RV application. The reason WHY Chrysler made the 413 was to build the best truck engine. The block is a TON better than any regular-production block ...with the exception of the Hemi block.
And to "point-out" some of the "MYTHS" of what you say about the "hi-performance" aspects of your posts. Opened chambered heads are better? ...why then are MOST aftermarket heads made in the closed chamber design? ANY 440 block is good for 6000+ and 600hp ? ..... you are dead-wrong. The block must be checked for proper cyl wall thickness. MOST 440 blocks are OK ... but your statement saying ALL ...is bad info. "Ditto on the 400 block" ? ..... is horrible info. A friend of mine just had a good 400 block checked and it had section of the block that would have had cyl wall thickness of less than .080 with a .030 overbore.
You state that the 400 block has the largest bore - as it is a GOOD thing .... it is NOT !
And then about your statement - concerning the 440 bolting-into in place of a 413 "with no modification". Again you prove that your Chrysler knowledge is lacking. The exhaust and cooling systems hookups need severe modifications.
I hope you know more about Ford school-buses than you do about Mopars.
I really hope the moderator takes pity on us Dodge owners and doesn't close this thread and instead just deletes or moves the last so many posts about the 413 vs 440 engines.
If you prefer one over the other, great! Now, CAN we get back to what this thread was created for!!!!
![[emoticon]](http://www.coastresorts.com/sharedcontent/cfb/images/doh.gif "doh")
-jc
78 Robinhood 23' Class C
97 Geo Tracker Convertible 4x4
87 Jeep Comanche Chief 4x4
MasterBoondocker wrote:
The 440 heads ? ...which heads are for the 440 only ? There are NONE. .... and for 99.99% of the applications that apply to people HERE on rv.net the RV/Truck/Industrial heads are better. YES .. the regular B-engine heads have better flow ... but that is not needed in THIS application. There are very few people here that are that comcerned with operating an engine in the 5500-6500 rpm range. Most gas engine RV applications operate in the 2000 to 3000 range. The 440-3 has valve rotators? ... I have pulled-apart a dozen or so of these motors and NONE have had them. In which service manual does it say that they were installed on a 440-3 ?
You "point out" stuff that does not apply AGAIN to a typical RV application. The reason WHY Chrysler made the 413 was to build the best truck engine. The block is a TON better than any regular-production block ...with the exception of the Hemi block.
And to "point-out" some of the "MYTHS" of what you say about the "hi-performance" aspects of your posts. Opened chambered heads are better? ...why then are MOST aftermarket heads made in the closed chamber design? ANY 440 block is good for 6000+ and 600hp ? ..... you are dead-wrong. The block must be checked for proper cyl wall thickness. MOST 440 blocks are OK ... but your statement saying ALL ...is bad info. "Ditto on the 400 block" ? ..... is horrible info. A friend of mine just had a good 400 block checked and it had section of the block that would have had cyl wall thickness of less than .080 with a .030 overbore.
You state that the 400 block has the largest bore - as it is a GOOD thing .... it is NOT !
And then about your statement - concerning the 440 bolting-into in place of a 413 "with no modification". Again you prove that your Chrysler knowledge is lacking. The exhaust and cooling systems hookups need severe modifications.
I hope you know more about Ford school-buses than you do about Mopars.
Jarlaxle wrote:
The 440 heads are better. They have open chambers, hardened valve seats, better flow. The 440-3 has valve rotators.
As I have already pointed out, any 440 block is perfectly fine for ANY street engine. An unmodified 440 block will hold up to 6000+RPM & 600HP. Ditto for a 400 block...600HP is no problem. They're not as thick as the 383 or 440, but, well...it's not an issue. That, and throw a cut-down 413 or 440 crank in a 400 block for a nice 452 stroker...or offset-grind the crank to a BB Chevy rod bearing size for 474ci. The 400 has the largest bore of any Mopar big-block.
How, pray tell, is a 440 different from a 413 externally? They're both RB engines...other than possibly different balance weights (just use a zero-balance converter & B&M flexplate if it's a 440-3...regular 440 is internal-balance), they're the same.
The 440 heads are better. They have open chambers, hardened valve seats, better flow. The 440-3 has valve rotators.
As I have already pointed out, any 440 block is perfectly fine for ANY street engine. An unmodified 440 block will hold up to 6000+RPM & 600HP. Ditto for a 400 block...600HP is no problem. They're not as thick as the 383 or 440, but, well...it's not an issue. That, and throw a cut-down 413 or 440 crank in a 400 block for a nice 452 stroker...or offset-grind the crank to a BB Chevy rod bearing size for 474ci. The 400 has the largest bore of any Mopar big-block.
How, pray tell, is a 440 different from a 413 externally? They're both RB engines...other than possibly different balance weights (just use a zero-balance converter & B&M flexplate if it's a 440-3...regular 440 is internal-balance), they're the same.
The 440 heads ? ...which heads are for the 440 only ? There are NONE. .... and for 99.99% of the applications that apply to people HERE on rv.net the RV/Truck/Industrial heads are better. YES .. the regular B-engine heads have better flow ... but that is not needed in THIS application. There are very few people here that are that comcerned with operating an engine in the 5500-6500 rpm range. Most gas engine RV applications operate in the 2000 to 3000 range. The 440-3 has valve rotators? ... I have pulled-apart a dozen or so of these motors and NONE have had them. In which service manual does it say that they were installed on a 440-3 ?
You "point out" stuff that does not apply AGAIN to a typical RV application. The reason WHY Chrysler made the 413 was to build the best truck engine. The block is a TON better than any regular-production block ...with the exception of the Hemi block.
And to "point-out" some of the "MYTHS" of what you say about the "hi-performance" aspects of your posts. Opened chambered heads are better? ...why then are MOST aftermarket heads made in the closed chamber design? ANY 440 block is good for 6000+ and 600hp ? ..... you are dead-wrong. The block must be checked for proper cyl wall thickness. MOST 440 blocks are OK ... but your statement saying ALL ...is bad info. "Ditto on the 400 block" ? ..... is horrible info. A friend of mine just had a good 400 block checked and it had section of the block that would have had cyl wall thickness of less than .080 with a .030 overbore.
You state that the 400 block has the largest bore - as it is a GOOD thing .... it is NOT !
And then about your statement - concerning the 440 bolting-into in place of a 413 "with no modification". Again you prove that your Chrysler knowledge is lacking. The exhaust and cooling systems hookups need severe modifications.
I hope you know more about Ford school-buses than you do about Mopars.
I feel like I'm trying to get through to a 5-year old here...
The FACTORY closed chamber heads are inferior to the FACTORY open-chamber heads, which should be very obvious.
I have torn down two 440-3's, & both had rotators. However, not all motorhome 440's are "dash-threes".
600HP is no biggie on a 400 or 440 block. Heck, it's been done dozens of times. They're plenty strong.
I've never seen any Chrysler V8 block that couldn't safely take a .030" overbore (though seen a couple that couldn't go any more). IIRC (my engine book isn't handy), the minimum spec is .060" on the non-thrust side. Bigger is better, and a bigger bore means a bigger engine. Of course, sonic-checking ANY used block is a good idea.
A 413 & a 440 (and a 383RB, and a 426W) use the same water pumps & exhaust (other than, obviously, year-to-year & chassis differences).
The 440 does everything at least as well as the 413, & most things better.
RobinHoodRV wrote:
I don't know about others but I think this argument, and yes it is an argument, about which engine is superior should be put in another thread. This thread has survived since august of 2004 and I hope it continues but with this stupid battle between you guys I'm afraid the moderator will close this thread.
I really hope the moderator takes pity on us Dodge owners and doesn't close this thread and instead just deletes or moves the last so many posts about the 413 vs 440 engines.
If you prefer one over the other, great! Now, CAN we get back to what this thread was created for!!!!
I don't know about others but I think this argument, and yes it is an argument, about which engine is superior should be put in another thread. This thread has survived since august of 2004 and I hope it continues but with this stupid battle between you guys I'm afraid the moderator will close this thread.
I really hope the moderator takes pity on us Dodge owners and doesn't close this thread and instead just deletes or moves the last so many posts about the 413 vs 440 engines.
If you prefer one over the other, great! Now, CAN we get back to what this thread was created for!!!!
I have no beef with this guy ....he is just posting UNaccurate info. Which is totally wrong.
On edit ...... if he prefers (for whatever reason) the 440 ...that is fine. But my "argument" with him is the WRONG "tech" data he is posting.
He is almost saying(to carry it to an extreme) ... that the 440 is a 6 cylinder engine.
* This post was edited 07/29/07 09:38pm by MasterBoondocker *
Jarlaxle wrote:
I feel like I'm trying to get through to a 5-year old here...
The FACTORY closed chamber heads are inferior to the FACTORY open-chamber heads, which should be very obvious.
I have torn down two 440-3's, & both had rotators. However, not all motorhome 440's are "dash-threes".
600HP is no biggie on a 400 or 440 block. Heck, it's been done dozens of times. They're plenty strong.
I've never seen any Chrysler V8 block that couldn't safely take a .030" overbore (though seen a couple that couldn't go any more). IIRC (my engine book isn't handy), the minimum spec is .060" on the non-thrust side. Bigger is better, and a bigger bore means a bigger engine. Of course, sonic-checking ANY used block is a good idea.
A 413 & a 440 (and a 383RB, and a 426W) use the same water pumps & exhaust (other than, obviously, year-to-year & chassis differences).
The 440 does everything at least as well as the 413, & most things better.
I feel like I'm trying to get through to a 5-year old here...
The FACTORY closed chamber heads are inferior to the FACTORY open-chamber heads, which should be very obvious.
I have torn down two 440-3's, & both had rotators. However, not all motorhome 440's are "dash-threes".
600HP is no biggie on a 400 or 440 block. Heck, it's been done dozens of times. They're plenty strong.
I've never seen any Chrysler V8 block that couldn't safely take a .030" overbore (though seen a couple that couldn't go any more). IIRC (my engine book isn't handy), the minimum spec is .060" on the non-thrust side. Bigger is better, and a bigger bore means a bigger engine. Of course, sonic-checking ANY used block is a good idea.
A 413 & a 440 (and a 383RB, and a 426W) use the same water pumps & exhaust (other than, obviously, year-to-year & chassis differences).
The 440 does everything at least as well as the 413, & most things better.
The 5-year-old ...is the one that is throwing a hissy fit ...and posting totally wrong info.
Open chamber vs closed ?..... you say the OPEN is the best? wrongO again ....why then is the most prized iron head the 915 67 head? ...and the max wedge heads were ALSO closed chambered.
The 440-3's had valve-rotators? .... quote me from any factory service manual this fact.
You say a .060 cyl wall is "safe" ....not on any engine I have seen. People have junked-blocks with less than .100. Why THEN did they build the mega-block with .250 plus? ...and you say .060 is OK. A bigger bore is better? ... why are alot of the big inch factory motors now V-10's ? ....
ENGAGE your brain ...before typing please. The LIST of wrong info that you continue to post grows larger and longer with every strike of your key-board.
Has any one with a older class c with 16.5in tires has changed to 16in tires and rims, was there much change in the RPM's, how much lower did it drop, any clearance problems etc...
timmac wrote:
Yea lets change the subject, we all know that the 440 was the high water mark for the Mopar gas big block before there big change in late 79 to earlier 80..
Has any one with a older class c with 16.5in tires has changed to 16in tires and rims, was there much change in the RPM's, how much lower did it drop, any clearance problems etc...
Yea lets change the subject, we all know that the 440 was the high water mark for the Mopar gas big block before there big change in late 79 to earlier 80..
Has any one with a older class c with 16.5in tires has changed to 16in tires and rims, was there much change in the RPM's, how much lower did it drop, any clearance problems etc...
I agree ....change the topic OR post correct info. Is this a Britney Spears chat-room based on "fantasy" ? ....or is this stuff supposed to be fact and opinion ??
The 16.5 v 16 tires ? ....depends on the diameter OF the tire. The 16 inch tires ARE more commonly available in a TALLER design. And YES I know of two people that have changed to the 16's on a Class C MH.
IF memory serves .... they had to trim the lower leading edge of the front fender for tire clearance.
Anyway, I'm changing my 16.5's to 16" because I can't find tires. Simply get a diameter of the tire to match your current tires.
Piece of cake!
![[emoticon]](http://www.coastresorts.com/sharedcontent/cfb/images/grin.gif "grin")
BABY'S GOT BRAKE!!!! Woo-Hoo!!!!!! I don't know how (or why) the previous owner of my rig drove this thing, but there were no brakes!
Not anymore! New master cylinder, new PB booster, new steel lines, new rubber lines, new calipers, new pads, etc. Nice, solid pedal now!!!!
Now to get her running properly...
![[emoticon]](http://www.coastresorts.com/sharedcontent/cfb/images/wink.gif "wink")
Go through and adjust everything on the carb to factory spec....then play as necessary (every adjustment on ours was so far out it wasn't funny).
But first, make sure the ballast resistor, coil, ignition module, plugs, wires, cap, rotor....everything, in other words, are good. They were all weak on ours.
'73 Concord 20' Class A w/Dodge 440 - see profile for photo