Griff in Fairbanks wrote:
Actually, I was eventually going to suggest -- make that recommend -- running a completely new ground. That is precisely what I do to head off potential ground problems.
I wish I had a dollar for every missing engine to frame ground strap I've run across. In each case, putting on a new ground strap caused the vehicle to work better, with most of the gremlins disappearing.
I've encountered several cases where wonky gauges were due to loose/corroded/dirty/greasy connections on the engine's negative battery cable.
Whenever I work on reviving an old vehicle, I start by replacing both battery cables. The slight additional cost is worth all the headaches replacement prevents.
When I get back to building my motorhome, I will be running a heavy copper wire the whole length to make sure I have a good ground available.
Actually, I was eventually going to suggest -- make that recommend -- running a completely new ground. That is precisely what I do to head off potential ground problems.
I wish I had a dollar for every missing engine to frame ground strap I've run across. In each case, putting on a new ground strap caused the vehicle to work better, with most of the gremlins disappearing.
I've encountered several cases where wonky gauges were due to loose/corroded/dirty/greasy connections on the engine's negative battery cable.
Whenever I work on reviving an old vehicle, I start by replacing both battery cables. The slight additional cost is worth all the headaches replacement prevents.
When I get back to building my motorhome, I will be running a heavy copper wire the whole length to make sure I have a good ground available.
Grif has provided some excellent advice and suggestions here. Usually most, if not all elecrical problems start with wonky grounds. Aside from dead shorts, of course.
Downsizing ">
To answer one of your questions. Same difference on the DC lights/Outlets regardless of being Battery only or on shore power. Once I get it back in my driveway, or have some time at the campground, we'll get to work. Knowing I can run a new ground if needed (which I thought and was hopeful) will definitely make things easier.
(Griff, for you non-military types
![[emoticon]](http://www.coastresorts.com/sharedcontent/cfb/images/wink.gif "wink")
)I've been distracted from dinking with our baby, but once I get back to it, one of the things I need to work on is the electrical. It seems that when we hook up the 120, it is NOT charging the battery. No major crisis at the moment (heck, I've still got work to do on the generator!), because I've got a battery charger that I plug into one of the wall sockets. But as you so eloquently described it previously, that's a kludge. I'd really rather have it work the way it's supposed to, and not some chicken-rigging solution.
You know, I like that idea of running a heavy copper wire as a "known good ground" that you can hook up to. Just out of curiosity, what gauge wire would you recommend?
Wolf
Wolf_n_Kat wrote:
Sarge,
(Griff, for you non-military types )
I've been distracted from dinking with our baby, but once I get back to it, one of the things I need to work on is the electrical. It seems that when we hook up the 120, it is NOT charging the battery. No major crisis at the moment (heck, I've still got work to do on the generator!), because I've got a battery charger that I plug into one of the wall sockets. But as you so eloquently described it previously, that's a kludge. I'd really rather have it work the way it's supposed to, and not some chicken-rigging solution.
You know, I like that idea of running a heavy copper wire as a "known good ground" that you can hook up to. Just out of curiosity, what gauge wire would you recommend?
Wolf
Sarge,
(Griff, for you non-military types
)I've been distracted from dinking with our baby, but once I get back to it, one of the things I need to work on is the electrical. It seems that when we hook up the 120, it is NOT charging the battery. No major crisis at the moment (heck, I've still got work to do on the generator!), because I've got a battery charger that I plug into one of the wall sockets. But as you so eloquently described it previously, that's a kludge. I'd really rather have it work the way it's supposed to, and not some chicken-rigging solution.
You know, I like that idea of running a heavy copper wire as a "known good ground" that you can hook up to. Just out of curiosity, what gauge wire would you recommend?
Wolf
Actually, most people in the military called me "Gunny Griff" or "Griff the Grouch", in addition the usual batch of names applied to ornery senior NCOs.
Your current solution of using battery chargers is what I'll be recommending, with some caveats, in a later, in-depth post. To rephrase the old cooks and broth adage, too many power sources, used too many ways, cause weird things to happen. (Remember ... KISS) The only reason manufacturers didn't/don't use this approach is the added expense of battery charger/maintainers.
As for a known good ground, a stranded wire at least as big as your battery cables would be best. (Bigger would be better to reduce voltage drop in a long wire.) Unfortunately, copper is expensive and readily available copper stranded wire is insulated, making connections a bit of a PITA. So, I'd recommend -- and plan to use -- the bare copper wire used to connect lighting rods and main circuit panels in houses to outdoor ground rods. (Readily available and demand keep the price reasonable.)
1970 Explorer Class A on a 1969 Dodge M300 chassis with 318 cu. in. (split year)
1972 Executive Class A on a Dodge M375 chassis with 413 cu. in.
1973 Explorer Class A on a Dodge RM350 (R4) chassis with 318 engine & tranny from 1970 Explorer Class A
eyeteeth wrote:
Thanks Again Griff.
To answer one of your questions. Same difference on the DC lights/Outlets regardless of being Battery only or on shore power. Once I get it back in my driveway, or have some time at the campground, we'll get to work. Knowing I can run a new ground if needed (which I thought and was hopeful) will definitely make things easier.
Thanks Again Griff.
To answer one of your questions. Same difference on the DC lights/Outlets regardless of being Battery only or on shore power. Once I get it back in my driveway, or have some time at the campground, we'll get to work. Knowing I can run a new ground if needed (which I thought and was hopeful) will definitely make things easier.
First of all, a length of wire with two alligator clips is my go-to tool for starting electrical diagnostic work. A lot of times that's all I need to find and fix the problem. (You could probably find at least a dozen of them around my place ... I tend to make a new one whenever I start diagnosing electrical problems rather than taking time to find one of the previous ones.)
Yup, sounds like ground problems, with one exception. You mention your bathroom fan works when shore power is disconnected, which makes me think you have more than one problem. However, let's identify one problem first, which the probability of a faulty ground system.
The downside to running dedicated ground wires is the expense of extra wires. That's why I strongly recommend using a jumper (wire and alligator clips) first to make sure you do have a ground problem.
On a side note, another things that rankles me is some people just keep throwing new parts at a problem until something (hopefully) fixes the problem ... in the worst cases they would have been money ahead to just buy a different car.
We're talking about 12 volt direct current (12VDC) systems ONLY.
120 volt alternating current (120VAC) is whole 'nother ball of wax.
Among other things, the "standard" color-coding for each type of system is significantly different, with little or no commonality between the two.
Also, mistakes made on 120/240VAC systems tend to create much more interesting fireworks (voice of experience) while both have a roughly equal tendency to start fires. (If you hear me say, "Oops," try to run faster than I am.)
Griff in Fairbanks wrote:
On a side note, another things that rankles me is some people just keep throwing new parts at a problem until something (hopefully) fixes the problem ... in the worst cases they would have been money ahead to just buy a different car.
On a side note, another things that rankles me is some people just keep throwing new parts at a problem until something (hopefully) fixes the problem ... in the worst cases they would have been money ahead to just buy a different car.
...aaaaand that's why I stopped working on the RV for a while. Financially at this point, if we want to keep camping, I have to start doing something again.
Start small... big projects later... biding time on a few of them.
The physics law of conservation of energy states energy can be neither created nor destroyed. This means electrical energy can only be "created" by converting mechanical, chemical, or radiation energy into electrical energy. Most of our motor vehicles rely primarily on the first two, mechanical and chemical energy, for the electrical energy our vehicles "use." (I put 'use' in quotation marks because we're actually just converting the electrical energy back into one of the other forms. From now on, I'll use vernacular terms like 'use' and 'create' with the understanding I really mean 'convert'.)
The majority of energy used by our modern vehicles during normal operation is created by the alternator, which converts rotational energy (a form of mechanical energy) into electrical energy. This is the reason alternators are more likely to be a source of electrical problems than the more visible battery.
When a wire moves through a magnetic field, an electrical potential is induced in the wire, This potential becomes an electrical current when the wire is connected in loop (circuit) that allows the current to flow out one end of the wire and around to the other end.
The wire is usually formed into coils that exposes more of the wire to the magnetic field, which increases the amount of electrical current induced in the wire. This part of an alternator, which produces the electricity, is called the armature.
The alternator's magnetic field can be generated by permanent magnets or electromagnets. ("Magnetic field" is usually shortened to just "field" when discussing alternators.)
The amount of current produced by permanent magnet alternators is controlled by varying the speed (RPMs) of the input rotational energy. This causes engineering challenges and mechanical complexity that is more suited to stationary uses rather than the mobile uses in vehicles.
For this reason, common automotive alternators use electromagnetic fields. The amount of current produced by these alternators is controlled by varying amount of current used to drive the field's electromagnets or, in some cases, turning the current on and off.
Many people, including myself, tend to think of alternators having a rotating armature inside a stationary field. However, common automotive alternators have the reverse, with a rotating field inside a stationary armature.
The bearings on the field shaft along with brushes used to supply electricity to the field coils are the most common cause of failure in this part of the alternator.
By the way, if description sounds remarkably similar to that of electric motors it is because they are effectively the same. The difference between electric motors and this part of alternators is the types of input and output energy.
The third crucial part of alternators is the bridge rectifier, which changes the alternator's native AC output into DC output. Bridge rectifiers are simple devices consisting four heavy duty diodes. In spite of a half century of trying, scientists and engineers have been unable to improve on this simple device, outside of creating more robust diodes.
Diode failure, usually due to being burned out by current spikes, is the third common cause of alternator failure, rounding out the primary causes of alternators dying.
Another part of a vehicle's charging system is the voltage regulator, which is associated with, but not actually part of, the alternator. Without some means of controlling their output, alternators will continue pumping out current until they overload the electrical system and fry all the circuits. (Regulators are design to cut off the alternator when they fail to prevent this from happening.)
Prior to 1970, Dodge charging systems used electromechanical regulators that controlled current output by turning the alternator's field on and off. These voltage regulators continuously monitored the electrical system's voltage level, turning the alternator's field on when the voltage dropped to a certain level and, in turn, turning the field off when the voltage rose to the specified level. (Field on/field off voltage range is roughly one volt wide.)
From 1970 until the advent of automotive computers, Dodge went to electronic voltage regulators that served the same function while being quieter and more reliable than the predecessor. These are currently (and have long been) my favorite for charging systems.
I won't go into newer charging systems because (1) my main interest is older vehicles and (2) most of you own motorhomes that fit in the time range I'm addressing here. (I may get into details of newer charging systems, if applicable, when I start discussing possible upgrades to your electrical systems.)
I will, at this time, provide one upgrade recommendation. If you happen to find an electromechanical regulator, you might want to upgrade to an electronic regulator. (I realize many of you own motorhomes that, old as they may be, are newer that what I like to play with. On the other hand, I did see a 1975 Dodge that had been retrofitted to a late '60s engine and person carried over the older regulator, apparently not realizing the upgrade is relatively simple.)
If this recommendation applies to you, PM me so I can point you information that will make easy and head off most (all?) your potential headaches and frustration. On the other hand, if you choose not to do the upgrade, buy and carry a replacement regulator with you because these have a tendency to fail more often.
This is a convenient stopping point so I think we'll take a break.
In the meanwhile, google "wiki alternator" if you want to know more about alternators and charging systems. (Have a bottle of aspirin handy ... most of the 'surface' articles are written for the average person but the links in these articles tend to lead to in-depth technical articles full of science and mathematics.
In addition, you might want to check out this article on allpar.com. It's written by Richard Ehrenberg and you should read all articles by him that you run across -- he focuses on Mopar vehicles and knows what he's talking about. (I'm mentioned in one of his articles on allpar.com because of some input I provided.)
This particular article provides a different perspective on our current topic, as well as discussing some problems and solutions we haven't gotten to yet.
Also, you might want to spend some time wandering around allpar.com ... it's got a helluva lot of Mopar info and is probably the best place for all things Mopar. (If you do wander around it, keep an eye on the time ... you could easily spend more time there than it would take to read all 600+ pages of this thread.)
TTFN. (Tiger's Ta-Ta For Now.)
Griff in Fairbanks wrote:
Very important caveat to the current discussion:
(If you hear me say, "Oops," try to run faster than I am.)
Very important caveat to the current discussion:
(If you hear me say, "Oops," try to run faster than I am.)
Griff,
Sounds like you have some time in as a "bomb technician" too!
I haven't laughed this hard in a long time. I've either stupidly done things you have warned about, or nearly did. And I survived! The only thing I can say is Jesus must love me...
all my best and keep it coming!
Mark "whiteknight001"
1972 Mobile Traveler 20' Dodge B300 Class C
"The Kobayashi Maru" Trans- Prarie Land Craft
"Requiescat in pace et in amore..."
Griff in Fairbanks wrote:
1. Go to the library (The brick-and-mortar early version of the internet) and look at the Chilton/Motor/Haynes manuals for '89 Dodge Vans. Some contain sections on body work that might cover window regulators.
2. Find a good parts store with a counterperson knowledgeable on interior trim work and pick their brain. (Avoid the arrogant fools who think you should already know.)
The door panels are held on by screws (visible) or body clips (hidden). The screws are easy but the body clips are a pain. There are tools available to help remove the clips. Usually, I wind up damaging the clips. Fortunately, replacement clips are available, with the primary issue being finding the ones that match yours. (When I worked at CarQuest, I usually had to look through the paper catalog or check 20-30 boxes to find the ones the customer needed.)
Also, if it is just the glass off the track, you'll need the right adhesive to (re)secure the glass in the regulator channel. With the door panel off, a good auto glass shop should only charge a small fee to reinstall the glass. (The door panel tends to be the labor-intense part of this project.)
While you're in there, you should at least lubricate the regulator. I'd use spray white lithium grease. If you have the money, you might also want to replace the motor and/or regulator. (My personal inclination would be to renew everything in the door to avoid having to remove the door panel again.)
Thanks for the great tips.
goreds2 wrote:
Has anyone worked on a 1989 Dodge Xplorer? I am having trouble with the drivers side electric window. Is the panel easy to remove? Hopefully, it just fell off of the track.
Has anyone worked on a 1989 Dodge Xplorer? I am having trouble with the drivers side electric window. Is the panel easy to remove? Hopefully, it just fell off of the track.
1. Go to the library (The brick-and-mortar early version of the internet) and look at the Chilton/Motor/Haynes manuals for '89 Dodge Vans. Some contain sections on body work that might cover window regulators.
2. Find a good parts store with a counterperson knowledgeable on interior trim work and pick their brain. (Avoid the arrogant fools who think you should already know.)
The door panels are held on by screws (visible) or body clips (hidden). The screws are easy but the body clips are a pain. There are tools available to help remove the clips. Usually, I wind up damaging the clips. Fortunately, replacement clips are available, with the primary issue being finding the ones that match yours. (When I worked at CarQuest, I usually had to look through the paper catalog or check 20-30 boxes to find the ones the customer needed.)
Also, if it is just the glass off the track, you'll need the right adhesive to (re)secure the glass in the regulator channel. With the door panel off, a good auto glass shop should only charge a small fee to reinstall the glass. (The door panel tends to be the labor-intense part of this project.)
While you're in there, you should at least lubricate the regulator. I'd use spray white lithium grease. If you have the money, you might also want to replace the motor and/or regulator. (My personal inclination would be to renew everything in the door to avoid having to remove the door panel again.)
See Picture In My Profile
I have a 1989 Dodge XPLORER RV Class B - Purchased 10/15/10 IN CASH
Fiance' purchased a Class C 2002 Dynamax Carri-go on 5/1/15 IN CASH
We've got the best of both worlds