wiggles n wooffers
East Bay, CA
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Has anyone done any comparisons between sumo springs vs airbags?
Have a stock F450 with camper package and with Host Everest, and have 3 inches of squat.
Looking for advice etc as to what to add to the truck.
We have weighed the truck loaded and are at the max of 5300 when loaded and full for a trip.
scale weights loaded are 4980 front axle and rear is 10000 .
Plan is to also tow a 18 foot utility trailer with quads etc with and estimated tongue wt of between 300-500lbs.
All info appreciated
Thanks in advance
Eric and Sandra
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SoCalDesertRider
SanDiego, CA, USA
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I don't understand your max loaded truck weight of 5300 lbs. I know your truck weighs more than that empty. It appears from the front/rear loaded axle weights you posted that your actual loaded truck weight is 4980 + 10,000 = 14,980.
In any case, what you need to reduce that 3" of rear suspension sag is to get the factory overload springs into action sooner. Torklift Stable Load bump stop spacers for the overload spring bumpers can help solve that rear end squat. They cause the overloads to touch the bumpers sooner, so they start helping support the load sooner and more firmly. The Stable Load spacers do not affect the unloaded ride and are simple to install on the truck.
Beyond that, adding another leaf to each overload spring would help support the weight better by increasing the spring rate of the overload pack, also without sacrificing the unloaded ride.
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skyhammer
CA
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SoCal, I think he saying that his camper weighs 5300lbs when loaded, which is entirely possible if he travels with 70 gallons of water and packs a lot of stuff.
His front axle weight is about 750lbs more than mine the rear is almost 1000lbs more, but he has a larger truck and probably travels heavier than I do.
I have stable loads and air bags and sit fairly level.
2011 Host Everest, 11.5',triple slide.
2011 F-350,DRW,CC,LWB,4X4,6.7
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fast.5
Ontario, Canada
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Joined: 01/29/2003
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Hi: I can't say a bout the sumo springs, but here is what I like about air bags. They allow you to change your ride height and level for how your truck is loaded. They allow you to adjust your camper level side to side, up or down a few inches when you are camped somewhere that is slightly out of level and are not wanting to block the truck up to get the level you want. I have had bags on different trucks and they have always worked well once you learn what they can do for you and how to air them up to the right level.
Mike
2004 FORD F350 Supercrew 4x4 V10 Airlift incab controls 42" titan extension.
2007 LANCE 1131 Loaded, Air,Dicor,all weather packages Awning&Slide awning,2500lp Onan camp power,back up camera,dish
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NRALIFR
Truck Camping Out West
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That seems to be a pretty common complaint about the F450's; they squat too much. My truck used to squat too much as well, and I put air bags on to correct that.They could be aired up enough to level the truck, but I didn't like the ride when they were aired up like that. Seemed too bouncy and unstable.
I eventually took the truck to a local spring shop and had them add a pretty thick leaf to the overload spring "pack" (which was really just one spring). I also had them re-arch the overload springs so they engaged the perches sooner.
I still inflate the airbags, just not as much. The ride is much better now.
2001 Lance 1121, 1995 F350 7.3 PSD CC DRW with many mod's and upgrades (see profile page). Over 200,000 miles and still going strong!
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Clattertruck
Centennial Colorado
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My F450 is the best truck I have owned. The only problem is that one has to think that Ford designed the truck for fifth wheel users. It does not have the 8 leaf spring pack as the F450 commercial cab-chassis. It has a pack of three, a base and to long thick ones for a good ride when a trailer is unhooked. The truck camper market is so small that Ford could care less about our heavy bed loads. The result is that the rear spring pack may need some help so that under a heavy camper so it does not squat like a puppy. Mine set into the overloads with nose too high.
I took the truck to Denver Spring and they put two more leaves in the stack. The setup is perfect now.
The rig is heavy. The truck alone weighs 9100 lbs. With the camper mounted, but empty it weighed 13,100 lbs. On our last trip I put it on a CAT scale and I was stunned by the number, 14,400 lbs. (the GVWR is 14,500) Wow, that’s a lot of gear, beer, water, generator, chairs etc. My 2002 F350 came in at 12,000. The Snowriver 10.8 actual weight was 3340 lbs. as delivered.
On the Glacier Hwy near Stewart, B.C. 2008
Near Tok Alaska 2008
Clattertruck
2008 SD F450 Pickup PSD 6.4L CC 4X4 DRW, Lariat Auto trans 4.30 LS, 2008 Snowriver 108 truck camper.
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SoCalDesertRider
SanDiego, CA, USA
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Yes that is a problem with the F450 pickups, versus the F450 cab/chassis trucks. Ford has sacrificed the pickup's load carrying ability in favor of a cushy unloaded ride. Owners are left to figure out how to make the truck haul what they bought it for, due to the insufficient rear springs supplied with the truck.
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Bruceter
Surrey- British Columbia
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This is a good thread as I'm going through the same thing myself. I have a 2010 F450 and a 2012 AF 1150. I've just purchased the camper in the fall and only had it on the truck once to bring it home from the dealer.
On the way to pickup the camper I weighted the truck w/o tailgate, 3/4 tank of fuel and myself in it and it was 9039 lbs. Fr axle 5269 & R axle 3770
On the way back with the camper at the same scale including the camper with all the options near full water, full propane plus all the tie downs including a Torklift Super Hitch that replaced the OEM hitch the rig was up to 13,933 lbs
Fr axle 5247 & R axle 8686
It did squat the truck about 2.5 inches @ the center of the rear wheels an I did loose 22 lbs off the front axle when loaded, which I'm hoping when the truck is leveled out will correct this. I noticed that Wiggles & Woffers lost almost 290 lbs on his front axle with his rig loaded which to me might be a bit of concern with a light steering feel.
I've talked to 3 different spring shops in my area and two of the three highly advised not to go with air bags in the 450's and suggested what others here have suggested, and that was to add the proper amount of leafs to the overloads to level out
The third company was only a supplier and was just happy to sell me what ever I wanted.
I'm also looking to pull a 7x16 inclosed trailer for the quads and going with a weight distribution hitch to pickup any tongue weight from the trailer.
Before I start using the unit I'll be having the spring work done.
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SoCalDesertRider
SanDiego, CA, USA
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Losing weight off the front axle with the camper loaded is a function of the camper's center of gravity point in relation the truck's rear axle. If the COG point is ahead of the axle, weight will be added to the front axle. If the COG point is behind the axle, weight will be removed from the front axle. Stiffness of the rear springs and amount of rear end sag (within reason) does not affect the load distribution about the truck's front and rear axles.
If Wiggles & Woofers' camper weighs 5300 lbs and he lost 290 lbs off the front axle, we can figure out where the camper's COG point is relation to truck's rear axle because we know the truck's wheelbase length is 172", since all '99-up crew cab long bed F-series pickups have the same wheelbase length and we know that the F450 pickup is only available as a crew cab with long bed.
D / 172 x 5300 = -290 is the equation we will use to solve the problem, where D is the number of inches the COG point is behind the axle, 172 is the wheelbase length, 5300 is the weight of the camper and 290 is the weight lost from the front axle.
So we need to re-arrange the equation to solve for D.
-290 / 5300 x 172 = D
So we now know that D = -9.4". This means the COG point of the camper is 9.4" behind the truck's rear axle.
We'll plug it back into the original equation to double check the answer.
-9.4 / 172 x 5300 = -289.7.
We can round the answer up to 290, since the 9.4 number actually had a few decimal places of numbers behind it, but I shortened it to 9.4 for ease of calculation.
In the case of your truck and camper, the truck weighed 9039 lbs without the camper and 13,933 with the camper, so the camper weighs 13,933 - 9039 = 4894 lbs, not accounting for minor differences in empty truck weight between weighings.
This camper weight number 4894 lbs actually does not agree with your individual loaded and unloaded axle weight numbers. Using those numbers, your camper weighs 4938 lbs. We'll use the number derived from the combined loaded and unloaded weights, 4894, since individual axle weights can be off a bit when added together, due to tires being placed at the edge of the scale during the weighing.
So we can plug in your numbers to the equation.
D / 172 x 4894 = -22
Re-arranging the equation.
-22 / 4894 x 172 = D
D = -.77
Your camper's COG point is about 3/4" behind the truck's rear axle, according to the numbers used in the calculation.
Since both of your guys' trucks are hauling campers loaded such that the COG point of the campers are behind the trucks' rear axles, both of you would be advised to use a weight distributing hitch with the trailers so your trailer's tongue weight doesn't pull any more weight off the truckss front axles.
This especially applies to Woofer's truck, since his camper's COG point is pretty far behind the axle, nearly 10 inches. If I were him, I would look at redistributing cargo weight inside the camper and truck cab put more load on the front axle. Possibly moving some heavy items from the camper's rear storage compartments and carrying them in the rear seat area of the truck cab, or in the overcab bed area of the camper, or using a front hitch mounted cargo carrier to carry some items that are now in the rear of the camper, or use the trailer to carry those items.
* This post was
edited 02/05/12 07:26pm by SoCalDesertRider *
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Bruceter
Surrey- British Columbia
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SoCal, thanks for the insight on the weight distribution on the fore and aft of the COG. I'm not questioning your knowledge in any way, but I find it hard to think that a vehicle squating in the back and a vehicle sitting level of the same weight, that the vehicle squating wouldn't have less of that weight on the front axle and more on the back?
I think I screwed up my figures in the earlier post with my conversion from kg's to lb's
And I do plan on a weight distribution hitch for the trailer.
Again thanks for the insight!
Bruce
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