Salvo
California
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GFCI may not be the solution that guarantees safety. They are not located at every receptacle in my MH. Yet grounded floor vents are all over the place in the MH. The dangers are all over the place in a metal chassis RV.
GFCI only saves lives when they are functional. Do you check every time before using that receptacle? Lightning is known to blow then.
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mike4947
N. Syracuse, NY
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Can't say for sure if every RV has all it's outlets protected by GFCI's, but everyone I've worked on daisy chains the outlets with the first in line being the GFCI. That way all the outlets are GFCI protected. Even found a few very high end RV's with GFCI breakers.
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Bit Bucket
Brookings, Oregon
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Salvo wrote:We're referring to RV use described by the OP.
But that doesn't matter. If it wasn't for lightning and the need to bond neutral, I doubt there would be bonding anywhere.
If my stick house ac wasn't bonded, I could drop a hair dryer or whatever into the bathtub with me in it without the chance of electrocution. I could grab the hot 120v cable without the slightest tingle.
We are one fault away from electrocution with a bonded system.
In regards to the OP situation, I would rather not have the hi/lo voltage disconnect working when using gen power than increase my risk of electrocution.
The code sounds screwy to me. Portable generators less that 3000W have no bonding requirements. What's so magical about 3000W? Sounds to me they don't know what they're doing. What makes a 2950w generator safe when not bonded and a 3050W generator unsafe?
Bit Bucket wrote:
In what situation are you referring to?
If you are talking about the portable, that is the hot debate (which I made no comment on).
If you are talking about the permanently mounted generator, you are argueing with the code book.
No offense, I think a little more research is in order on your part...
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Bit Bucket
Brookings, Oregon
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Wayne Dohnal wrote:Bit Bucket - I'm really seeking the correct answer on these issues. Maybe you can help lead me to them.
"Except the NEC doesn't allow you to legally unbond the permanently mounted generator." Question 1: Where does NEC say it's ok to unbond the portable generator? I can't find it.
It doesn't say you can unbond them, it says they are not required to be bonded. Sorry, I will wait to get back to work where the code book is!
Wayne, that would be great if you are willing to discuss this in depth. I would be happy to go through some thorough research on the whole subject with you in the interest of getting to the bottom of as many things as we can concerning generators and grounding and bonding. I have been an electrician for 25 years and an electrical supervisor for over 12 of that, so I feel at least qualified to contribute. If you would like to start an email discussion, I am more than willing to invest my time...
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Bit Bucket
Brookings, Oregon
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Salvo wrote:GFCI may not be the solution that guarantees safety. They are not located at every receptacle in my MH. Yet grounded floor vents are all over the place in the MH. The dangers are all over the place in a metal chassis RV.
GFCI only saves lives when they are functional. Do you check every time before using that receptacle? Lightning is known to blow then.
GFCI's do not need to be located at every receptacle to protect all receptacles.
Most (if not all) modern GFCI's will fail in a way that does not pass power.
Nothing is perfect, but GFCI's are by far the best thing we have going for us concerning this type of safety issue.
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Salvo
California
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$hit happens. Perhaps you need to get better informed.
As opposed to your previous post I will provide a link.
http://onwatergarden.com/others/cgfirecall.htm
Bit Bucket wrote:
Most (if not all) modern GFCI's will fail in a way that does not pass power.
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ktmrfs
Portland, Oregon
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Salvo wrote:GFCI may not be the solution that guarantees safety. They are not located at every receptacle in my MH. Yet grounded floor vents are all over the place in the MH. The dangers are all over the place in a metal chassis RV.
GFCI only saves lives when they are functional. Do you check every time before using that receptacle? Lightning is known to blow then.
GFI outlets provide very significant protection against electrocution but no guarantee. If you are connected across the hot and neutral with less than the GFI trip current flowing in ALL ground path(s), the GFI won't trip! GFI looks at the difference between hot and neutral current. If it doesn't see any difference it won't trip. If your well insulated from ground, you may not trip a GFI but still get a shock.
Fortunetely, in most cases a person in danger of electrocution has enough of a path to ground that the GFI will trip and protect them.
But, all that aside, IMHO they are a signficant enough of a safety device that almost EVERY outlet in our sticks and bricks house and trailer are on GFI. The only exceptions are circuits connected to critical motors(fridge, freezer) which often have enough leakage current to occasonally trip the GFI. Last thing you want is a fridge/freezer loosing power while your gone!
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Bit Bucket
Brookings, Oregon
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Salvo wrote:$hit happens. Perhaps you need to get better informed.
As opposed to your previous post I will provide a link.
http://onwatergarden.com/others/cgfirecall.htm
Bit Bucket wrote:
Most (if not all) modern GFCI's will fail in a way that does not pass power.
So a manufacturer of one GFCI makes a faulty product and you dismiss GFCI's?
So you don't drive a car either, right? There have been certain brands and models of unsafe cars.
I'm sure we can find examples of shoddy housing developments too, so you will have to give up living in a house as well.
Your logic is interesting...
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Salvo
California
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No, my logic is OK, at fault may be your reading comprehension. Did I say GFCI should not be used? Let's not get silly.
Bit Bucket wrote:Salvo wrote:$hit happens. Perhaps you need to get better informed.
As opposed to your previous post I will provide a link.
http://onwatergarden.com/others/cgfirecall.htm
Bit Bucket wrote:
Most (if not all) modern GFCI's will fail in a way that does not pass power.
So a manufacturer of one GFCI makes a faulty product and you dismiss GFCI's?
So you don't drive a car either, right? There have been certain brands and models of unsafe cars.
I'm sure we can find examples of shoddy housing developments too, so you will have to give up living in a house as well.
Your logic is interesting...
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ExRocketScientist
Laurel, MD
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OK folks. Just keep in mind how you are going to use your portable generator, and bond it accordingly.
When using an EMS, bond it.
When plugging into the outlet on the end of the generator (other than your RV) don't bond/ground it.
When RV is plugged in, have it bonded/grounded but use your outside GFCI protected outlet on the RV in lieu of a receptacle on the end of the generator.
Its not perfect, then again, while your using your toaster oven on the picnic table a part could fall off of an airplane and hit you. So nothing in life is 100%. We can get it pretty close with a little effort.
ERS
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