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 > Ford 6.7 debacle just gets crazier

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Turtle n Peeps

California

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Joined: 06/23/2008

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Posted: 02/08/12 05:22pm Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

NewsW wrote:

Turtle n Peeps wrote:



As far as the DI "Ecoboost type" of engine goes. You just wait until the carbon/valve deal hits the fan. I predict that is really going to get ugly when the miles pyle up. I want to see if the manufacture is going to try and blame the consumer for that deal too.

The smart thing to do is have a dedicated injector in back of the air door to clean things up. I wonder if GM is going to go this route after they went with the dedicated injector for the DPF? Smart move to do that in that case. We will see if the trend continues?



Ford decided that a dedicated injector is not needed to provide the extra fuel to "clean" the DPF.

They basically do a post combustion exhaust stroke injection to richen the mixture and figure it does the same thing.

The other alternative... Cummins is using massive EGR which is a even less proven technology than DPF and DEF.

Oh.. Cummins is also using Bosch injectors and pumps... but which one?

There are not many good choices...


I was talking about an gasoline type DI engine. Sorry for the confusion.


~ Too many freaks & not enough circuses ~


"Life is not tried ~ it is merely survived ~ if you're standing
outside the fire"


Jarlaxle

New England

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Joined: 11/18/2006

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Posted: 02/08/12 06:52pm Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

NewsW wrote:

BenK wrote:


Plus demanding they provide ICE's pushing the limits

Kinda Sorta sounds like, smells like, walks like the good old days
when my buddies and I played with pushing the limits of whatever we
had. From the English 2 seaters to my old Vette to my current 7.4L

Boy racers know that, but now that the regular buyers and that the OEMs
are providing the levels of power demanded...married with computer
simulation instead of million mile test mules (in house)...we are
now those test mules...



The trouble started when modders still think they can "out factory" the stuff that Ford GM and Cummins put out.

You can, but not remain EPA and so on compliant.

At the end of the day, 80% of present diesel owners are going to get run off the road by much stricter enforcement of smog and other rules.


Takes ten minutes to plug in a laptop & switch to the "emission test" program. When that's done, just put the "emission junk bypass" program back in until next year.


John and Elizabeth (Liz), with 3 nutty cats
My beloved St. Bernard, Marm, lost him 1/2/12
Current rig:
1992 International Genesis school bus conversion

45Ricochet

North Idaho

Senior Member

Joined: 09/04/2009

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Posted: 02/08/12 07:01pm Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

NewsW wrote:

Turtle n Peeps wrote:



As far as the DI "Ecoboost type" of engine goes. You just wait until the carbon/valve deal hits the fan.



Ford decided that a dedicated injector is not needed to provide the extra fuel to "clean" the DPF.



Oh.. Cummins is also using Bosch injectors and pumps... but which one?

There are not many good choices...

Selective comprehension I guess Bob

I believe the Cummins is still using the proven Bosch CP3 HPFP. Same one GM used before the 2011 switch to the CP4. IIRC the Cummins has used the same HPFP for nearly a decade now.
IMO the failure of the CP4 seems to be related directly to FILTRATION.
Poor fuel quality and 30k psi is not very abrasive


06 Dodge 3500 CC LB Laramie 4x4 Dually 5.9 Cummins 325/610 48RE Jacobs brake Smarty Jr
GVWR 12,200 Payload 4580
06 Grand Junction 34' High profile 15500 GVWR 3200 pin Mor/ryde 5500 Onan genny Dual A/C
27' Hallett 502, 500HP


NewsW

US

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Joined: 02/06/2012

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Posted: 02/08/12 07:25pm Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

Jarlaxle wrote:



Takes ten minutes to plug in a laptop & switch to the "emission test" program. When that's done, just put the "emission junk bypass" program back in until next year.



You will really like OBD III:

http://lobby.la.psu.edu/_107th/093_OBD_Service_Info/Organizational_Statements/SEMA/SEMA_OBD_frequent_questions.htm


"WHAT IS OBD-III?

A program to minimize the delay between detection of an emissions malfunction by the OBD-II system and repair of the vehicle

Two basic elements:

Read stored OBD-II information from in-use vehicles.
Direct owners of vehicles with fault codes to make immediate repairs

OBD-III TECHNOLOGIES

Three ways to send/receive data:

Roadside reader
Local station network
Satellite

ENFORCEMENT MECHANISMS

Incorporate into biennial I/M program
Read fault code to screen for vehicles that need complete testing
Pass or short test for vehicles with no fault code
Does not speed up repair process
Out-of-cycle inspection
Compile and screen data
Mail notice to vehicle owner requiring out-of-cycle inspection within 10 days
Require Certificate of Compliance (C of C) on next registration/resale, or
Require C of C within 30-60 days, with citation for noncompliance
Enforce citation via court and/or DMV penalty at next registration
Roadside Pullover
CHP flags down vehicles with fault codes
Technician verifies problem by inspecting and/or testing vehicle
Issuance of notice requiring out-of-cycle inspection
Same enforcement (C of C /citation) "


Posts are for entertainment purposes and may not be constituted as scientific, technical, engineering, or practical advice. Information is believed to be true but its accuracy and completeness cannot be guaranteed / or deemed fit for any purpose.


ib516

Up here!

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Joined: 04/18/2003

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Posted: 02/08/12 08:02pm Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

NewsW wrote:

JustLabs wrote:

ib516 wrote:

I wonder what occurrence of failures GM is experiencing (if any) with the same HPFP on the Duramax. Anyone know?


I don't recall reading about any HPFP failures on either of the Dmax forums I'm a member at.

But,I don't read those forums every day so its possible I missed something.



2011 was the first year that GM used the Bosch cp 4.2 pump in the LML Duramax.

Failures of the CP 3.x pump was relatively low, but the 4.2 pump is new.

If there is an across the board problem (crossing Ford and GM brands), the evidence should start to roll in with a 9 month lag given the staggering of Ford vs. GM adoption of the pump.

Well, I have a CP3 truck, and I'm pretty familiar with them and their lack of issues overall. I am going to buy a new truck someday, and I watching this issue to see which to buy. While I've been nothing but satisfied with my Cummins powered Rams, I will consider other brands when it comes time to plunk down my hard earned money for my "retirement truck".


2010 Cougar 322QBS 5er
2007 Dodge 3500 SRW Megacab, 4x4, 5.9L Cummins, 3.73, 48RE auto

HYPERTECH MAX ENERGY
Scangauge2 for Boost, Coolant temp, rail press & Trans Temp
PICS
Collision Reconstructionist, CDR (automotive "black box") download technician/analyst


ib516

Up here!

Senior Member

Joined: 04/18/2003

View Profile



Posted: 02/08/12 08:11pm Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

NewsW wrote:

Turtle n Peeps wrote:



As far as the DI "Ecoboost type" of engine goes. You just wait until the carbon/valve deal hits the fan. I predict that is really going to get ugly when the miles pyle up. I want to see if the manufacture is going to try and blame the consumer for that deal too.

The smart thing to do is have a dedicated injector in back of the air door to clean things up. I wonder if GM is going to go this route after they went with the dedicated injector for the DPF? Smart move to do that in that case. We will see if the trend continues?



Ford decided that a dedicated injector is not needed to provide the extra fuel to "clean" the DPF.

They basically do a post combustion exhaust stroke injection to richen the mixture and figure it does the same thing.

The other alternative... Cummins is using massive EGR which is a even less proven technology than DPF and DEF.

Oh.. Cummins is also using Bosch injectors and pumps... but which one?

There are not many good choices...

I think the EcoBoost is a great idea, and I look forward to how it does longevity wise in 5 or so years.

On the Cummins HPFP thing -- I frequent the more popular Cummins forums, and have yet to read of a HPFP failure on a 2010+ Cummins 6.7L. I can't catch every thread, but I haven't seen one yet.

BenK

SF BayArea

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Joined: 04/18/2002

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Posted: 02/08/12 09:57pm Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

To help those who might have a problem understanding what NewsW is
saying...look at any USA major highway/freeway

Look for the diamond saw cut slots (older were square with the corners
cut, or the new ones which are circular), or the RF antenna on over
head signs or poles. There will then be a digital camera mounted on
a pole about 50ft high.

They are flux field sensors, those slots on the pavement. Always two
of them so they will know direction, time of day and the biggie speed

Originally as sensors for smart stop lights to tell the computer that
there is a vehicle. But that is for stationary systems...why on the
highway/freeway?

The RF antennas sense even more information.

And soon, as NewsW says, they can scan what the vehicle computer is
telling you in real time.

Marry that with RFID's in your clothes, wallet (credit cards now have
them embedded), your vehicle computer, etc. What is that you say???

Well when someone with an RFID set of plastic cards in their wallet
(that includes your drivers license)...the vehicle computer will/can
capture all that info.

When it is told to tell by one of those RF antenna...it will broad cast
and tell that XYZ drivers license is 'still' in the vehicle, as are
these other licenses, VIN, etc.

It will also tell what the computer is programed to tell and this is
where the programers most likely will modify...but...the computers
memory is now very large and most likely nonvolatile ROM of some sort

Maybe strain gauges some day and do you know what that means? Look at
the rolling weigh stations where they can weigh semi's without them
having to come in and stop on the scales. They can weigh them while
they are rolling in the slow lane out there on the highway

Basically the cost of that type of system and instrumentation is low
enough to allow the OEMs to install them

NewsW wrote:

Jarlaxle wrote:



Takes ten minutes to plug in a laptop & switch to the "emission test" program. When that's done, just put the "emission junk bypass" program back in until next year.



You will really like OBD III:

http://lobby.la.psu.edu/_107th/093_OBD_Service_Info/Organizational_Statements/SEMA/SEMA_OBD_frequent_questions.htm


"WHAT IS OBD-III?

A program to minimize the delay between detection of an emissions malfunction by the OBD-II system and repair of the vehicle

Two basic elements:

Read stored OBD-II information from in-use vehicles.
Direct owners of vehicles with fault codes to make immediate repairs

OBD-III TECHNOLOGIES

Three ways to send/receive data:

Roadside reader
Local station network
Satellite

ENFORCEMENT MECHANISMS

Incorporate into biennial I/M program
Read fault code to screen for vehicles that need complete testing
Pass or short test for vehicles with no fault code
Does not speed up repair process
Out-of-cycle inspection
Compile and screen data
Mail notice to vehicle owner requiring out-of-cycle inspection within 10 days
Require Certificate of Compliance (C of C) on next registration/resale, or
Require C of C within 30-60 days, with citation for noncompliance
Enforce citation via court and/or DMV penalty at next registration
Roadside Pullover
CHP flags down vehicles with fault codes
Technician verifies problem by inspecting and/or testing vehicle
Issuance of notice requiring out-of-cycle inspection
Same enforcement (C of C /citation) "



-Ben Picture of my rig
1996 GMC SLT Suburban 3/4 ton K3500/7.4L/4:1/+150Kmiles orig owner...
1980 Chevy Silverado C10/long bed/"BUILT" 5.7L/3:73/1 ton helper springs/+329Kmiles, bought it from dad...
1998 Mazda B2500 (1/2 ton) pickup, 2nd owner...
Praise Dyno Brake equiped and all have "nose bleed" braking!
Previous trucks/offroaders: 40's Jeep restored in mid 60's / 69 DuneBuggy (approx +1K lb: VW pan/200hpCorvair: eng, cam, dual carb'w velocity stacks'n 18" runners, 4spd transaxle) made myself from ground up / 1970 Toyota FJ40 / 1973 K5 Blazer (2dr Tahoe, 1 ton axles front/rear, +255K miles when sold it)...
Sold the boat (looking for another): Trophy with twin 150's...
51 cylinders in household, what's yours?...

NewsW

US

Senior Member

Joined: 02/06/2012

View Profile



Posted: 02/09/12 03:31am Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

rick83864 wrote:


I believe the Cummins is still using the proven Bosch CP3 HPFP. Same one GM used before the 2011 switch to the CP4. IIRC the Cummins has used the same HPFP for nearly a decade now.

IMO the failure of the CP4 seems to be related directly to FILTRATION.

Poor fuel quality and 30k psi is not very abrasive



Not so sure that it is a filtration issue.

If it is one, it is solvable by the backyard mechanic by the addition of aftermarket filters and possibly an upgraded low pressure fuel pump to make up for the pressure drop.

As it is, think factory filtration is at 10 and 4 microns ???

10 for the primary filter with a water barrier? 4 for the fairly large secondary???

How far can you take filtration down? 1 micron?

The real question I am raising is what is happening to diesel fuel and normal additives / substances (I hesitate to say contaminants because it is a normal component of fuel) found in most on-road diesel fuel under 2,000 bar and operating temperatures of 150C or therabouts?

It goes to reason that some of the components of normal fuel can potentially become reactive inside the pump or associated components.

Was there something that Bosch overlooked?

* This post was edited 02/09/12 03:48am by NewsW *

TugCE

Leesburg, Florida

Senior Member

Joined: 06/10/2008

View Profile





Offline
Posted: 02/09/12 03:36am Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

BenK wrote:

To help those who might have a problem understanding what NewsW is
saying...look at any USA major highway/freeway

Look for the diamond saw cut slots (older were square with the corners
cut, or the new ones which are circular), or the RF antenna on over
head signs or poles. There will then be a digital camera mounted on
a pole about 50ft high.

They are flux field sensors, those slots on the pavement. Always two
of them so they will know direction, time of day and the biggie speed

Originally as sensors for smart stop lights to tell the computer that
there is a vehicle. But that is for stationary systems...why on the
highway/freeway?

The RF antennas sense even more information.

And soon, as NewsW says, they can scan what the vehicle computer is
telling you in real time.

Marry that with RFID's in your clothes, wallet (credit cards now have
them embedded), your vehicle computer, etc. What is that you say???

Well when someone with an RFID set of plastic cards in their wallet
(that includes your drivers license)...the vehicle computer will/can
capture all that info.

When it is told to tell by one of those RF antenna...it will broad cast
and tell that XYZ drivers license is 'still' in the vehicle, as are
these other licenses, VIN, etc.

It will also tell what the computer is programed to tell and this is
where the programers most likely will modify...but...the computers
memory is now very large and most likely nonvolatile ROM of some sort

Maybe strain gauges some day and do you know what that means? Look at
the rolling weigh stations where they can weigh semi's without them
having to come in and stop on the scales. They can weigh them while
they are rolling in the slow lane out there on the highway

Basically the cost of that type of system and instrumentation is low
enough to allow the OEMs to install them

NewsW wrote:

Jarlaxle wrote:



Takes ten minutes to plug in a laptop & switch to the "emission test" program. When that's done, just put the "emission junk bypass" program back in until next year.



You will really like OBD III:

http://lobby.la.psu.edu/_107th/093_OBD_Service_Info/Organizational_Statements/SEMA/SEMA_OBD_frequent_questions.htm


"WHAT IS OBD-III?

A program to minimize the delay between detection of an emissions malfunction by the OBD-II system and repair of the vehicle

Two basic elements:

Read stored OBD-II information from in-use vehicles.
Direct owners of vehicles with fault codes to make immediate repairs

OBD-III TECHNOLOGIES

Three ways to send/receive data:

Roadside reader
Local station network
Satellite

ENFORCEMENT MECHANISMS

Incorporate into biennial I/M program
Read fault code to screen for vehicles that need complete testing
Pass or short test for vehicles with no fault code
Does not speed up repair process
Out-of-cycle inspection
Compile and screen data
Mail notice to vehicle owner requiring out-of-cycle inspection within 10 days
Require Certificate of Compliance (C of C) on next registration/resale, or
Require C of C within 30-60 days, with citation for noncompliance
Enforce citation via court and/or DMV penalty at next registration
Roadside Pullover
CHP flags down vehicles with fault codes
Technician verifies problem by inspecting and/or testing vehicle
Issuance of notice requiring out-of-cycle inspection
Same enforcement (C of C /citation) "


WOW, and I thought OnStar was scary!!!


05 Chevy 2500 4x4 D/A with Helper Springs and Air Ride Air Bags
06 R-Vision RW3360 Fifth Wheel Toy Hauler
97 FLTCI converted into a Roadsmith Trike by The Trike Shop of Daytona

NewsW

US

Senior Member

Joined: 02/06/2012

View Profile



Posted: 02/09/12 03:54am Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

OBD III is at present, being proposed, but not formally adopted as of yet.

Give it about 5 to 10 years, and I am afraid that is the route for North America.

It will hit Europe first, and then come here.

For better or worse, the regulators view is that end users cannot be trusted.

Too many on-road drivers, especially diesel truck drivers like independent operators, have been messing around with emissions.

Not to mention the ones that like to show off their ability to blow off clouds of smoke.

Whereas the gasoline vehicle fleet is more or less compliant with EPA rules, the diesel fleet is well "below par".

Before DPFs and catalysts, there were relatively few incentives to go out of the way to nail polluters.... but with fairly expensive emission gear that have high maintenance needs that might be "deleted" and a whopping financial incentive to truck operators to do so, the game changed.

That is why the era of the shade tree mechanic moddable diesel may be rapidly coming to a close.

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