BCSnob
Middletown, MD
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Doug4.7 wrote:BCSnob wrote:With our current mix of power generation, EVs are just as "dirty" as internal combustion engines. I'm not so sure about that. Check the math for yourself, I did.
kWh/100miles for an EV
Emissions per transmitted kWh for each power generation system
(you could also include transmission losses)
Percentage of each type of power generation on US grid
All these numbers are available from reliable sources on-line.
Then compare the emissions per mile to the emissions from various ICEs using mpg.
To get at emissions I compared the grams of CO2 produced per Btu of fossil fuel (coal, NG, gasoline, diesel); I assumed for all cases 100% combustion of the fossil fuel.
* This post was
edited 01/25/12 01:11pm by BCSnob *
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Moderator
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Just a 'heads up' folks. We are not going to turn this thread into one of those worn 'domestic/foreign' arguments.
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taborekle
Clements, Md
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I've been looking at the Volt for awhile now. One of the things that the Nissian Sales rep said about the battery replacement is that with any electric vehicle with a battery, the battery pack should last for years, and by that time who knows what the replacement cost of the pack would be (implication is that it would be less expensive then today).
With the Volt though, I still can't get over the initial purchase cost. With all those fewer components (like a engine), you would think that the cost would be much lower. My bet is that their one of the few on the market, so they have tagged a higher price. As more electric vehicle manufacturers ever the market with their product, then the price of the Volt will come down. Why not wait for a few years and get it at 2/3rds the price of one today?
I also don't buy that we need new electric lines and power plants for this. The Volt power station has a timer to ensure that the Volt charges up only at night, when there is plenty of excess capacity in the grid and when the rates are the cheapest. By the By, Nissian pretty much insists that you buy their powerstation when you get the Volt.
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mowermech
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"Nissian Volt"??
I thought it is a Chevrolet!
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msmith1199
Central, CA
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You do know the Volt does have an engine don't you? And it has electric motors and it has a batter and it has external charging capablity. And it's really expensive.
The Volt and the Leaf are really two different things altogether, and depending on the circumstances the Volt may be cheaper for some. If you have a Leaf you are very limited on your driving with it. You can't do cross-country trips or even long day drives. So you may also have to have an regular gasoline car too.
The Volt takes care of the problem of having two cars. You still get the benefit of having the electric car for short trips but if you want to drive cross-country then the Volt does that too.
I wouldn't buy either right now because neither would fit my needs. When the improve the hybrid technology so you get over a 100 miles on battery alone but you still have a gas engine for longer drives, then I think they may get more popular. And of course that is assuming the price comes down.
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Skid Row Joe
Texas and on-the-road
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BCSnob wrote:Doug4.7 wrote:BCSnob wrote:With our current mix of power generation, EVs are just as "dirty" as internal combustion engines. I'm not so sure about that. Check the math for yourself, I did.
kWh/100miles for an EV
Emissions per transmitted kWh for each power generation system
(you could also include transmission losses)
Percentage of each type of power generation on US grid
All these numbers are available from reliable sources on-line.
Then compare the emissions per mile to the emissions from various ICEs using mpg.
To get at emissions I compared the grams of CO2 produced per Btu of fossil fuel (coal, NG, gasoline, diesel); I assumed for all cases 100% combustion of the fossil fuel. Correct, BCSnob.
Nothing's for nothing. You cannot create clean "energy" out of thin air. Creating power to drive elec vehicles needs an energy source. That's the rub with all of them.
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Doug4.7
Hartselle, AL, USA
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msmith1199 wrote:And of course that is assuming the price comes down. Right now, THAT'S my major barrier to owning a hybrid. You need a lot of "green" to go green.
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taborekle
Clements, Md
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Whops! Sorry folks, as I had a complete brain drain. I meant the LEAF, so every time I wrote Volt, I meant the Leaf. Gaaa.
But I think that the Leaf and the Volt are really overpriced. I was at the DC autoshow this weekend and had a chance to talk to a Chevy sales rep about the Volt. $39K for a 4 door sedan? Really?
And the Nissian Leaf isn't much better at $34K.
They need to get the price down to the lower 20's.
Larry
taborekle wrote:I've been looking at the Volt for awhile now. One of the things that the Nissian Sales rep said about the battery replacement is that with any electric vehicle with a battery, the battery pack should last for years, and by that time who knows what the replacement cost of the pack would be (implication is that it would be less expensive then today).
With the Volt though, I still can't get over the initial purchase cost. With all those fewer components (like a engine), you would think that the cost would be much lower. My bet is that their one of the few on the market, so they have tagged a higher price. As more electric vehicle manufacturers ever the market with their product, then the price of the Volt will come down. Why not wait for a few years and get it at 2/3rds the price of one today?
I also don't buy that we need new electric lines and power plants for this. The Volt power station has a timer to ensure that the Volt charges up only at night, when there is plenty of excess capacity in the grid and when the rates are the cheapest. By the By, Nissian pretty much insists that you buy their powerstation when you get the Volt.
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AKsilvereagle
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Quote:I also don't buy that we need new electric lines and power plants for this. The Volt power station has a timer to ensure that the Volt charges up only at night, when there is plenty of excess capacity in the grid and when the rates are the cheapest.
Maybe this is the case along your region of the east coast....but many regions in the rest of the country do not have as much luxury or the same grid line infrustructure to supply the demand, nor do certain regions have nuclear power of anykind for that matter, as some places in the US are already strained by their current power systems as they need upgrading while no one wants to invest in it until there is an over demand.
As the last time I read an almanac, I remember this much stating that there were 110 active nuclear power plants in the United States, as over 80 percent of the nuclear power plants were located east of the Mississippi River.
However in densely populated places like throughout California are constantly fighting for power demand during peak times during the summer months as valley and inland residents throughout the state tend to stay cool running their air conditioners 24 hours a day and have fallen into overload disruptions that were temporary, this is a state with 5 nuclear plants as I am not sure if one or two of them are still active.
Illinois has 15 nuclear plants, New York has 7 of them, Pennsylvania has 9, from what I remembered....plenty of power for demand in thse parts.
Here in Interior Alaska, the majority of the Fairbanks Area gets their power from a coal plant 130 miles away with backup diesel generators....all the wind and hydro capability in the world for alternative energy here but yet it is still not being utilized.
I could see these electric cars try to run efficiently during mid winter when it gets real cold, like the past three days here as the temperatures stayed between -45 F and -56 F below, the average temperature for all of January is over -25 F below, the 3rd coldest January on record....During our winter months we have to plug in our vehicles to keep them warm with the help of freeze plug heaters and battery pads and oil pad heaters for motor oil and trans fluid just to ensure they start the engine, so you can call our vehicles electric in that regard.
But hey what do I know, my youngest vehicle out of the six I own is a 1976 model (yes they all run), never made a car payment in my life as I can afford to pay for the gas because of it.
Paid $325 to $1000 for each of my 5 rigs, and $2051 for my camper rig which was equipped with an older camper shell included that lasted 12 years before I splurged on a newer cabover that I have now, and darned if I am going to pay over $20,000, plus full coverage insurance, plus other hidden expenses jst for some passenger 'electric car' in my situation as it will not off set the cost of fuel vs electricity in the long run to make up the difference for the sticker price and maintenance and replacement parts on top of that....
Even if gasoline were to climb to $100 per us gallon, the electric prices will also rise to match their ratio cost with the current oil prices.
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Doug4.7
Hartselle, AL, USA
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AKsilvereagle wrote:I could see these electric cars try to run efficiently during mid winter when it gets real cold, like the past three days here as the temperatures stayed between -45 F and -56 F below, the average temperature for all of January is over -25 F below, the 3rd coldest January on record.... This is a perfect example of why the Volt (and Leaf, and other cars like it) are not THE vehicle for EVERYONE. Just because they are not a good choice for you (or maybe anyone in Alaska) does not mean they are wrong for everyone. The driving my son does here in Alabama would be a perfect match for the Leaf. Lots of short trips around town. He could go a whole day (and maybe several) on one charge. There are a lot of folks where a car like the Volt or Leaf would make sense. For others, it doesn't (hauling a 10,000 lb. trailer up the Alaskan highway). The Volt might make sense for me, with its backup gas motor, as I drive more than 60 miles a day. Actually what might be best for me is a small diesel that gets 45+ on the highway since most of my driving is highway.
There needs to be MANY choices of vehicles because there are many different driving needs.
You can't write something like, "Well it won't work for me, so it won't work for anyone." The logic does not work that way. For some of my friends, an RV would be a dumb idea (they guy who lives in San Francisco would NEVER be able to find a parking space for an RV, let alone drive it around town doing his rounds.
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