wnjj
Cornelius, Oregon
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Chuck and Di wrote:We never got sick, so I'm assuming it works as advertised.
Not to pick a fight or anything but this doesn't prove anything, unless someone else in your group used the same original water source and did get sick. You could wear a hat every time you drank and not get sick, concluding the hat prevented sickness.
http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/post-hoc.html
* This post was
edited 08/10/10 07:39pm by wnjj *
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rickjo
SW New Mexico
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wnjj wrote:Chuck and Di wrote:We never got sick, so I'm assuming it works as advertised.
Not to pick a fight or anything but this doesn't prove anything, unless someone else in your group used the same original water source and did get sick. You could wear a hat every time you drank and not get sick, concluding the hat prevented sickness.
That's a faulty argument. Hats were not invented for that purpose. Ceramic water filters were invented to purify water, are tested on known bad water sources, and like Chuck and Di said, they never got sick. Further, they had reasonable expectations of that outcome based on science.
Rick
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wnjj
Cornelius, Oregon
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rickjo wrote:wnjj wrote:Chuck and Di wrote:We never got sick, so I'm assuming it works as advertised.
Not to pick a fight or anything but this doesn't prove anything, unless someone else in your group used the same original water source and did get sick. You could wear a hat every time you drank and not get sick, concluding the hat prevented sickness.
That's a faulty argument. Hats were not invented for that purpose. Ceramic water filters were invented to purify water, are tested on known bad water sources, and like Chuck and Di said, they never got sick. Further, they had reasonable expectations of that outcome based on science.
Rick
I think you missed the point. I was only pointing out the fallacy of the comment in that post. Simply not geting sick is not a good reason to assume a product works as advertised. Test results and science I can believe. Trust me, there are plenty of "products" that claim all kinds of things. Lack of an outcome is not proof of anything.
I don't have any idea whether these products work or not.
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Bumpyroad
Virginia
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wnjj wrote:Chuck and Di wrote:We never got sick, so I'm assuming it works as advertised.
Not to pick a fight or anything but this doesn't prove anything, unless someone else in your group used the same original water source and did get sick. You could wear a hat every time you drank and not get sick, concluding the hat prevented sickness.
http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/post-hoc.html
I thought that their post was about the magic pen, not a ceramic filter. If a ceramic filter I can believe that it works, I mean selas candles were in use for many years before the membrane filter was put into use.
I thought they stated that they started with clean water, whatever that means.
But yes, an uncontrolled scientific experiment is unvalid on the face of it. perhaps the water was contaminated but with organisms that the body could normally fight off ?
bumpy
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silversand
Montreal
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Also, be aware that:
"The EPA does not "test," "approve," "disapprove," or "recommend" water treatment devices. An EPA number is assigned if a manufacturer claims that the device inhibits or reduces bacteria in the water or on the filter. Some ratings of water purifier devices and manufacturers are done by the National Sanitation Foundation, a non-profit organization, and the Water Quality Association, which is a trade association. EPA develops and oversees the implementation and enforcement of regulations for drinking water by public water systems." Publication #: HE-418, North Carolina State University, Department of Biological and Agricultural Engineering.
Now, the NSF (independent testing facility for consumer products, including water treatment devices!) does test and certify. I checked their database for Steripen, and nada, no certification. MIOX only has their industrial-sized chemical generators certified, not the consumer pens. MIOX pens have passed the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency’s (EPA’s) guide standard and protocol for microbiological purifiers, but it HAS NOT been CERTIFIED to work as advertised by NSF. So, you must only take the manufacturer's word at face value, remember.
S-
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Chuck and Di
Ontario, Canada
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wnjj wrote:rickjo wrote:wnjj wrote:Chuck and Di wrote:We never got sick, so I'm assuming it works as advertised.
Not to pick a fight or anything but this doesn't prove anything, unless someone else in your group used the same original water source and did get sick. You could wear a hat every time you drank and not get sick, concluding the hat prevented sickness.
That's a faulty argument. Hats were not invented for that purpose. Ceramic water filters were invented to purify water, are tested on known bad water sources, and like Chuck and Di said, they never got sick. Further, they had reasonable expectations of that outcome based on science.
Rick
I think you missed the point. I was only pointing out the fallacy of the comment in that post. Simply not geting sick is not a good reason to assume a product works as advertised. Test results and science I can believe. Trust me, there are plenty of "products" that claim all kinds of things. Lack of an outcome is not proof of anything.
I don't have any idea whether these products work or not.
This is fun.
You are of course correct in pointing out the logical fallacy - it's the same one religions have used for thousands of years. The world would be a better place if everybody studied “Logical Thinking 101”.
However, a quick search online will find a statistically significant number of data points, sufficient (in my estimation) to conclude UV sterilization does work. I won’t use another fallacy by stating municipalities usually use the method. I was merely pointing out that my experience aligned with the published data (using parochial language) and I did not mean to imply that my experience on it’s own was sufficient to prove the functionality.
I chose this method because published research concludes it is effective on viral contamination and bacterial contamination. Ceramic filters can only remove bacterial contamination. This is generally sufficient in North America, but less so in other parts of the world.
There was also a comment about what I meant by clear water. UV radiation can be blocked by particles in water, so it needs to be “clear” to start. If you can see particles, running it through a coffee filter is sufficient. If you choose the Steripen method, follow the directions carefully. This is sound advice for any method, really - it's easy to accidentally re-contaminate.
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Bumpyroad
Virginia
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I don't think that anybody is saying that UV sterilization doesn't work.
I have seen the installation/operational/performance qualification of many such systems. but shaking this magic pen around in a glass of water is quite a different situation. it is basically a totally uncontrolled type of situation.
bumpy
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sleepy
Oak Ridge,Tennessee
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Davis83 wrote:I am a licensed Water Treatment Operator in the State Of NC - so I would like to point out something to you all.
There is a HUGE difference between "purified" water and "disinfected" water.
If water treatment was as simple as a MIOX pen or several various filters inline -
1. Then why does it cost MILLIONS to build a treatment facility
2. Why does it take multiple years and multiple state exams to obtain a license to do it?
3. Why do we have half a million $$$'s worth of lab equipment to test for microbes/bacteria that can't be killed by CL2 (chlorine) except thru prolonged (4+ hrs) exposure. Crypto, Giardia, E-Coli are not things you want to take a chance with.
and - Just because you pull water from a well does not mean that it does not contain pollutants.
Purified water - pay particular attention to the "Health Affects"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Purified_water
Bottled water - you may be surprised that the majority of the bottled water you are paying big $$$ for is simply tap water from the local water system. Regulated by the FDA - not the EPA. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bottled_water
Treated water - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_treatment
Bottom line - I recommend you use potable water sources only - you can add a carbon filter inline to safely remove CL2 before point of use - just ensure you change the filter regularly to prevent the system from becoming anerobic.
Forget the gimmicks - if must use a "remote" source, Boil it and add 1 tsp of clorox per gallon.
Read the fine print - MIOX pen = 4+ hrs to treat for Crypto sporidium.
Just my 2cents
I like your post... and I agree.
Sleepy (901 nights boondocking in our camper).
BTW... I am sitting in Woodhog's front yard at this moment. How's that for going to the extreme to answer a question... but you answered it better.
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Bumpyroad
Virginia
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4 hours huh? as Jerry Lee Lewis would say, A whole lot of pen shaking going on. BTW saw the pen on RV show last night. out of curiosity, what makes the face change from frowney to smiley? didn't see any means of determining conductivity or any other attribute. is it merely a timer?
bumpy
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