James85C
Beecher, IL
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Greetings, this is my first time posting anything on GoodSam. Sadly, I'm writing due to a problem with my beloved "new" RV, not just for fun!
So I picked up an 86 Rockwood class-C a couple months ago, with the main intention being a trip with my friends down to Missouri. Got her tuned up, and she ran flawlessly for 1000 miles on our trip last weekend. I really felt good that I had a solid rig for future use. Sure, she needed a few things here and there, but overall felt good.
Well, 2 days after my trip, I finished cleaning it out in my driveway, and went to take it back to the storage lot in town where I keep it. Well, she wouldn't start. Absolutely no fuel at the carb (Ford 460, Holley 4 bbl). Spray a bit of starting fluid, she fires immediately.
I guess the main purpose of my message is to see if anyone has some suggestions on where to start. I have confirmed that it has electric pumps. I have never been able to use the rear tank, only the front. The switchover unit on the frame rail does physically make a switching action when the dash switch is moved, so I don't think it's that. All wiring looks solid, and the main supply line from the switch box to the engine is not blocked (pulled hose off the filter, flows free by gravity). I did locate the "reset" button on the passenger kick panel, that did nothing for me. Could that unit itself be bad? Is there a way to bypass it to determine if that's the issue?
Did I likely have one dead fuel pump to start with (rear tank) and now my front tank pump is dead? Up next is checking wires for power, making sure it's not a bad relay or fuse, not that I know where relays or fuses for fuel pumps are anyways.
Does anyone know of a way to get a free wiring diagram for an old E350? That would be good to have. And a repair manual, as I'm not very familiar with Fords or anything RWD and carb'd for that matter.
Thanks for any tips or help!
Jamie
James - Chicago, IL
1986 27' Rockwood class-C
Ford E350 chassis - 460 ci
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Westronics
Redmond, WA
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You might be able to get some help for the Ford MH assistance line - the number is 1-800-444-3311. If they cannot help directly, maybe they can re-direct you. I've used them before and they were very nice and helpful.
2002 Jayco Greyhawk 24SS, Camera, ScanGauge, Inverter, Airtabs, Portabote, SeeLevel II, Tireman valves, Xatnrex Battery Monitor, Aero-flo vent, Trik-L-Start, XPS Rib, Chains, Lil' Stanker, Be kind to septic systems Ford: 1-800-444-3311. RV Tires
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1995brave
San Antonio, TX
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Did you check the filter in the inlet on the carb? Using a helper and an empty can, pull the gas line to the engine, have the helper or you hold it in the can, and the turn the ignition key on. If the electric pump is working you should get a good flow of gas out the hose.
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James85C
Beecher, IL
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Nice, thanks for the tip. Definitely worth a try.
Honestly though, I'm thinking of just getting a generic inline fuel pump, plumbing it in, and putting fresh wiring to it. No question then everything is new/good. Chasing 25 year old wiring gremlins is no fun!
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James85C
Beecher, IL
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And no, I have not checked the filter (if there is one) at the inlet of the carb. So far, just had a friend turn the key on and off while I was under the tanks, absolutely zero sound from either one. The only item I can confirm is doing anything (or making some sound during operation) is the tank selector switch box.
My idea of a pump ahead of that switch box seems like it would get me going, and possibly let me use both tanks, I'm just not sure if the pump will want to suck that far. I read online that they like to be as close to the tank as possible, so they're sucking from a short distance. We shall see I guess...
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j-d
Sunny Florida USA
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We had an 83 E350/460/C6 chassis under our 84 Holiday. Check the following to be sure your system is like ours was:
1. A "Y" or "T" fitting near the carburetor. Two lines in (actually one in from the fuel pump and one return to the tank) and one line out (to the carb inlet).
2. No mechanical fuel pump on the engine timing case cover.
3. Select switch under dash, select valve in chassis rail, two tanks with a pump each.
4. A small blue wire plugged ont the starter solenoid (fender well by battery) in addition to the small red one.
OK, if all this matches, this is what we had.
It quit one day. I could crank and crank then it would start, run a few hundred yards and quit again. I could crank and crank and the process would repeat. Turned out to be a blown fuse in the panel, between steering column and parking brake pedal, under the dash. I replaced with an auto reset circuit breaker and that problem never came back.
In the system I think you have, like the one we had, a low oil pressure switch on the upper rear of the engine keeps the pump from operating in normal mode unless the presence of oil pressure confirms that the engine is running.
So how can it get fuel to start? When you're cranking, the energized starter solenoid puts voltage on the blue wire and powers the pump on the tank selected with the dash switch.
You can test pump and power to it with the blue wire! Pull it off the solenoid and apply 12VDC to it using a fused test lead. I say fused but use an auto reset breaker for tests like this. You may need an assistant to listen, but you can hear the selected pump run. Switch and repeat.
I burned out the field windings in a starter with all the cranking. After all, the starter's dropping the voltage the pump needs to fill the tank in a timely manner. Made starting a long process. I added a pushbutton switch, powered off the fuel pump breaker, and connected it to that blue wire instead of the solenoid. Turn key to Run, press Button, Hold 15 seconds, Release Button and Crank. Engine started instantly ever after.
If a pump like we're talking about here fails, you CAN install an aftermarket pump into the feed line and power it from the OEM pump's power lead. These are low pressure pumps (5-7 PSI). They work on a screw principle and fuel will pull past the impeller. Not so on the high pressure EFI pumps...
I never found a good wiring diagram or somebody who could help with the switching system so I hope your problem isn't there. There's at least one relay, some resistance wire, and probably a couple other things I never figured out. A friend had a cube van with this setup and the switching part failed. He worked out a jury rig process where one tank had to pump into the other and fuel feed was only from one tank.
He also powered the pump from an always-hot terminal without realizing it. Until the intake flooded with gasoline forced past the carb needle/seat and he had an engine compartment fire. Be careful with workarounds.
* This post was
edited 07/16/10 10:43am by j-d *
God Bless, jd
2003 Jayco Escapade 31A on 2002 Ford E450 V10 4R100
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j-d
Sunny Florida USA
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James, since other replies came in...
1. Just turning the key ON won't run either pump, reason noted above.
2. Our carb had an inlet filter. I replaced it and when I did I added an inline filter at the outlet of the select valve. The little carb filters have little surface area and plug easily. The added filter was bigger, clear plastic, and I could inspect/change it easily.
3. The little "Y"/"T" up by the carb can fail. Its job is to provide enough resistance that the carb gets what it needs and excess gas goes back through the select valve to the selected tank. Select valve is Four IN (Two Fuel and Two Returns, one each per tank) and Two OUT (Fuel to "Y"/"T" and Return back).
4. As I mentioned, you can use aftermarket pumps like the little Purolator/Facet kind. If you find you need to do that, I'd like to see you install near each tank. The push better than the pull and you don't get vapor lock on the push side.
5. You need to do a little more troubleshooting before you change parts. It may be only a filter, a fuse, or that "Y"/"T" fitting. If you get it to start and won't keep running, could be that fuse, oil pressure switch, or related wiring. Mechanic told me that a little water in the gas can make the pump balk and that might have been what blew the pump fuse. As I said before, with the breaker in place I had no further problems. I don't know if it ever tripped and reset, in time for the pump to keep the carb full.
6. Fuel pump relay is inside the left front fender. There's a pair on a bracket, and I don't know if it's one per pump or one for pumps and other for something else.
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James85C
Beecher, IL
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j-d,
What you described about your old 83 is exactly how my 85 is set up (mine is an 86 Rockwood on an 85 chassis). And when she was previously running, she could be extremely hard to start, it would take a loooong crank and a lot of pumping to get her to fire. Your idea of a button or switch to run the pump before / during cranking (or just as a test) is a great idea.
I did locate the 2 relays you speak of, mine aren't mounted to anything, they were just laying in there. All wires looked intact, connections clean. I suppose I'll test them to check for proper function.
I'm gonna do a bit more diagnostic with the info I've learned from your posts before replacing anything. It still doesn't explain why my rear tank/pump has never worked, but that's a whole different topic. At this point, I just want to be able to get the RV back to the storage lot for now and use it next weekend! One tank does the job, but sure makes for a lot of fuel stops. To be on the safe side, we were stopping every 90 miles during the Missouri trip. She did average about 7 mpg, which I thought was pretty damm good for that old beast with 10 people in it! Of course, the smaller of the 2 tanks is the one that works. How many gallons is it supposed to hold? We would stop when the needle got near E, but she never took more than 13 gallons. Gauge never read all the way to full though, despite the tank being filled to the brim.
Thanks again, the info you shared is exactly what I needed. I always get a kick out of sharing old knowledge that is no longer of any use to me. I assume you haven't thought of your old 84 in a while!
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j-d
Sunny Florida USA
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We replaced our 1984 in 2008 with a 2003. The '03 does not drive as well, does not get any better mileage, and is far more complex to fix.
I had an 83 owner's manual and a Haynes service manual, both went with the coach. I think front tank was maybe 20 gal and rear maybe 24. I'd budget 140 miles on the front tank and 160 on the rear. But generally I could only put 18 front and 21 rear. Our gauge wouldn't reach F and would still run below E.
Haynes manual isn't bad up throught the last of the carbed E-Series and it includes wiring diagrams. They weren't complete for the tanks, though. Might at least give you wiring colors. Remember, there will be at least a pump power and a fuel gauge connection at your tank. Possibly a ground, possibly more. You could eliminate the gauge by powering up the dashboard, noting the reading, then unplugging the wire you tihnk is the gauge sender. You should see the gauge change. Then if there's only one ungrounded wire left, it'd be the pump motor.
The Pre-Start Button will solve that section of your issues. Hopefully you'll get through the rest!
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j-d
Sunny Florida USA
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Go Hereand look at E2140S.
Three wire connector but I can't tell if one of the three is ground or it's above ground and ground comes throught the mounting flange.
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