mosseater
Dillsburg, PA
Senior Member
Joined: 10/19/2007
View Profile
 Offline
|
Hell, I'd be happy if I could understand how you embed your photos so nicely. It occurs to me that the only way I will know what I'm getting is to buy it local (if possible) and see it in person. That, or order it and see what they send. I will have to get some measurements and get back to you on what I have for sure. Trying to keep in mind, this isn't the end of the world, but you can see it from here. The piece I have is definately one cast piece and looks different than both you show. It was bought in 9/'07 but I have no way of knowing how long it sat on the dealer's shelf. It seems to bulge out in the upper socket even farther than your pictures show. I know it is stretched now, but new it had a bulge in it looking down in plan-view. The problem I see is not knowing which part I'll get. I'm sure I can figure out a set up that will work.
To gain enough clearance to run more links, I would have to install a two inch riser ball and lower my hitch on the shank again. I know I measured my "A" frame beam and I think you're right at 6", just don't remember right now. Without absorbing the data on your post in relation to head tilt angles built into various revisions, I would have to say (in ignorance) I don't know what angle my current head is. I have a digital 2' level, but I don't have an angle guage like yours. I CAN say I spent quite a bit of time and brain power in measuring the take up in notches vs. chain links, and I must respectfully say I disagree with your estimation on two for one. I got a chain link measurement of 1 3/8", compared to a notch on the serated washer which equalled 1 1/8" take up. That's measured on the cam detent center line as near as humanly possible without help and moderate cussing. That's only slightly more than one for one, the link being in the lead by about 1/8". Granted, that's on a radius, not a straight line, but it should be very close. What ever the final outcome of my situation is, given that I'm running near the edge of my capacity, I see a trip and at least two, and maybe three weighings, in my future. (the wife just loves that at the start of a trip). I'll have to make that a special trip for some "me time" at the Flying J. Makes me feel like one of the big boys driving the big rigs. I know....what a loser!
As always, John, you are the bomb! And I thank you for your time and expertise, not just for me, but for all of us dummies on this board. Stay tuned, film at 11.
* This post was
edited 07/14/10 01:12am by mosseater *
"It`s not important that you know all the answers, it`s only important to know where to get all the answers" Arone Kleamyck
"...An unarmed man can only flee from evil, and evil is not overcome by fleeing from it." Col. Jeff Cooper
Sunset Creek 298 BH
|
eric james
Sioux Falls, SD
Senior Member
Joined: 07/21/2004
View Profile
Offline
|
mosseater wrote:snip
To gain enough clearance to run more links, I would have to install a two inch riser ball and lower my hitch on the shank again.
I'll have to disagree on this notion. Moving the hitch on the shank is only for leveling the trailer. That's the first step in setting up the weight distribution hitch.
By tilting the head or grabbing more/less links you're just moving the responsibilty of what part of the hitch is making the leverage work.
If you need more clearance for the Dual Cams, you need to tilt the head to compensate for more links under tension.
It's a PITA I know, done it a few times.
I had too many links under tension at one time (8), the bars were too close to the ground but man I had some serious clearance.
Then I tweaked it a little and got the ground clearance up two inches, lost a little Dual Cam clearance but now it's all good with 7 links. Didn't have to move the hitch head up or down on the shank.
Actually worked out better with a little more compression on the front.
JBarca is way more experienced in this stuff and I'm just a layman of turning the wrenches and swinging the hammer. 
Hang in there.
2009 Keystone Passport UL 290BH
2003 Ford Expedition EB 5.4L/3.73
|
cathcartww
Stone Harbor, NJ
Senior Member
Joined: 03/04/2008
View Profile
Good Sam RV Club Member
Offline
|
JBarca wrote:Hi Moss
. . . . .
See here. And there is a lot of other good stuff in that post about the SC hitch and the lock up angle of the WD bars of the 2007 head and the 58617 head.
http://www.rv.net/forum/index.cfm/fuseac........d/23533284/gotomsg/23760172.cfm#23760172
Now you originally where asking if your head and the 58167 where a direct interchange. Well this much I learned tonight. My old 3 piece 58167 and the new 58167 are different. Yes they can work in place of each other but it will force WD settings to be retweaked.
. . . . .
John
Just an aside, as I was part of the discussion John quoted above ....
I have the Pro SC Series, which has a similar trunnion arrangement, and like you, tore up the head by backing to hard into a turn. I ended up replacing the head with the newer #587167 ($240 in stock at my local RV Dealer), and it made a world of difference in the set up. With the new head, the geometry is much better - no high rise ball needed, and only need to tilt it back a couple of notches.
I did learn to drop the trunnion bars before backing up ....
Bill & Kate - Stone Harbor, NJ
w/ Sunny (parti poodle) & Molson (goldendoodle)
2005 Ford/Quigley 4x4 E-350 Chateau Super Duty Van with 6.0L PSD ("Moby")
2012 Outback Super Light 277RL - 10th Anniversary Edition ("Salty Dog House II")
l.jpg)
|
mosseater
Dillsburg, PA
Senior Member
Joined: 10/19/2007
View Profile
Offline
|
Where to start....
Let's start by saying nothing I am going to say is probably going to change how you or other's think about my setup. It took me quite a while to decipher what was going on and what to do next, because I don't have the ideal combination. So, no harm, no foul, OK? Not trying to ruffle feathers and start a pie fight.
Quote:I'll have to disagree on this notion. Moving the hitch on the shank is only for leveling the trailer. That's the first step in setting up the weight distribution hitch.
Agreed, with the caveate that since it is the firt step, let's all agree that it is only preliminary, and more often than not, requires moving the ball mount at some point because of loading and relative vehicle heights after towing your rig for a while and realizing the first set up is mostly an educated guess. My initial install by the dealer was doing NOTHING with respect to weight distribution. This was confirmed on my first visit to the scale. ALL my weight was being carried by the rear axle. Which by default means weight was coming OFF the front axle. This also had a dramatic effect on an already nose-down trailer the moment I loaded it and the tow vehicle, bringing the nose almost 2" lower in the front than the back. That was another factor in realizing something had to change. I never new it til I weighed it. And the purpose of a "weight distributing hitch" is to.........?
So, during adjustment, required by a now-loaded trailer and some verifiable weight slips, it became obvious at five links and two notches PAST the end of the serrations (max tilt as stated by Reese), something needed to change if I was to have decent weight tranfer to spread out the load of my maxed out set-up.
Quote:By tilting the head or grabbing more/less links you're just moving the responsibilty of what part of the hitch is making the leverage work.
Agreed. Both actions accomplish the same end result, that is, appling more (or less) bending force on the spring bars, thereby increasing (or decreasing)the transfer of weight forward. As I stated earlier, my measurements confirmed that one link took up slightly more than one notch when snapping the latches. If you compare the pics of your set-up and mine, you'll notice a difference of almost two links distance in where the latches end up when snapped. Mine end just above the "A" frame beam while yours are quite a bit higher. That accounts for almost two links right there. Our latches are obviously constructed differently. Without know the comparitive specs, i.e., lengh of throw, radius of travel, distance away from frame, etc., it will be comparing apples and oranges because they operate differently.
Quote:If you need more clearance for the Dual Cams, you need to tilt the head to compensate for more links under tension.
Can't tilt it if you don't have it. I didn't, so gaining links was the answer. The only way to gain links is to increase the vertical distance between the spring bars and the "A" frame. Hence, the high rise ball. And, being only slightly nose down, a high rise ball then required the ball mount to be moved down on the shank (and, coincidentally, flipping the shank over, because I had no holes left!), per your initial statement. My rig now tows 3/4" low in the front loaded on flat pavement (measured at trailer frame rail, front compared to back)
I don't know if the relative lateral spacing between the upper and lower socket that John mentioned will come into play or not. I'm convinced the ball mount I have is probably a different measurement than what I'm about to buy, and the configuration in relation to the ball will have some influence on where my setting ends up. I will stick by my statement that more tilt equals more bind at the cam/bar interface, all other considerations being equal. So, getting distribution with the least amount of tilt will be my goal. Thanks for your input. There's a lot to think about and I can use all the help I can get.
* This post was
last
edited 07/14/10 09:38am by mosseater *
View edit history
|
mosseater
Dillsburg, PA
Senior Member
Joined: 10/19/2007
View Profile
Offline
|
Here's new wrinkle. I can get it locally for $130 out the door, but they have to order and we're not sure what we'll get. Could be one piece or three piece welded, not sure which revision.
The other two vendors have it in stock, one piece cast, for only TWICE THE PRICE! $229! GRRRRRRRR!
The first vendor also has complete hitches, including bars for $250!!! I said, "aren't they normally $400-600 ?"
She said, "Yup! Got a deal on a bunch of them" So, anybody needs a hitch, check out AJ's Truck and Trailer in Harrisburg, PA.
I didn't really want to spend that kind of money, and I don't need a complete set-up, but it sure sounds attractive, all things considered.
|
|
|
mosseater
Dillsburg, PA
Senior Member
Joined: 10/19/2007
View Profile
Offline
|
J Barca wrote:Can you tell me the distance from the bottom of your A Frame rail to the ground with the TT level? That will tell me a lot about your setup. That and the ball height, inside coupler to ground with TT level. It looks like you have a 6” wide A frame, is it?
Be back on Wednesday
Hope this helps
John
John,
Ball socket to ground- ~ 21"
Bottom of A-frame to ground- ~ 15"
A-frame is 6"
Please understand, without hitching and driving to the nearest "flat" spot to measure, these measurements could be off an inch, maybe more. I don't have that sweet set up in my driveway like you (lucky dog!). I could run a string line, but it's raining and I don't want to melt. Loaded and measured on various level spots at different times, my nose is consistantly 3/4" lower than the rear.
Thanks for your help.
|
mosseater
Dillsburg, PA
Senior Member
Joined: 10/19/2007
View Profile
Offline
|
I'll take that as a vote of confidence. Can't wait to get this resolved. Part number confusion isn't my strong suit for patience.
I wonder if you could expound on why you drop your bars backing. I have seen this stated many times and I don't see why it makes a difference. If it works going forward, it should work going back. I haven't had a problem other than my own stupidity missing the clearance problem with the ball threads. Thanks much!
|
eric james
Sioux Falls, SD
Senior Member
Joined: 07/21/2004
View Profile
Offline
|
Bars come off when the beer comes out at my campsite.
Hey Moss, I read through your comments. This is very familiar.
"Can't tilt it if you don't have it. I didn't, so gaining links was the answer. "
No more tilt available? Interesting, same with me and I was tossing the left bar in tight turns. Now this was with the previous "frankenstein" hitch with 800 lb reese bars with the small trunion heads. I did't have any tilt because my bars were maxed out. Also clearance was tight against the Dual Cams.
(Yes more photos)
(notice the rub mark on this cam)
Well you can fix anything with money. My solution was 1200 bars end of last summer that sat in their box until this season and a new head for the big trunion heads this season.
That new $250 hitch is looking like a good option now.
|
cathcartww
Stone Harbor, NJ
Senior Member
Joined: 03/04/2008
View Profile
Good Sam RV Club Member
Offline
|
mosseater wrote:
I wonder if you could expound on why you drop your bars backing. I have seen this stated many times and I don't see why it makes a difference. If it works going forward, it should work going back. I haven't had a problem other than my own stupidity missing the clearance problem with the ball threads. Thanks much!
When backing into a tight spot, I think there is a bigger chance of ending up at a very sharp angle when trying to get the end of the trailer going the right direction. At any rate, after tearing up the hitch once, I am not going to take any chances. I have an electric tongue jack, and it has to be jacked up to get the pressure off the trunnion bars before unhooking anyhow, so it takes very little extra time, and eliminates the possibility of popping it out again. It seems like the less "tilt" you have, the less torque there is trying to twist the trunnions out of place ...
|
JBarca
Dublin, Ohio, USA
Senior Member
Joined: 12/16/2004
View Profile
Offline
|
Hi Moss
OK you said a few things that made me go back and look at your existing hitch head. When you said, I am out of head tilt and that 1 tooth head tilt is about equal to 1 chain link. I am not doubting this is what you are seeing however it is not what actual head 58167 has given on other setups.
See here on your hitch. And would you by chance have a pic of the side of the hitch while hooked to the truck and WD engaged? I think I may know why your WD adjustments not responding the way they should. But I need to see it on the TV to make sure I did not miss something.
Here is the pic you linked us to. (Just click the “copy the code to post in forum”, then select 600 mega pix, then copy “post in a forum” and it will post here on RV net like this. Web shots makes this complex but there is a way.
Now I took your pic and added centerlines to the WD bar trunnion lugs lock up relationship to the ball mount machined surface and centerline of the tow ball. Your present hitch head does "not" react like the Reese 58167 I have setup. That is if this is a pic of what you stated was full head tilt. May have missed something but this was the only pic I knew of.
First is if you are actually out of tilt slot back, then it is for sure not a 58167. The old 3 piece 58167 has 15 degrees of rear tilt. And the Reese manual even states that 1 tooth is 1” at the chain point. And we know the chain is more the 1” pitch, see page 2. I have seen many times on 58167, a known solid receiver,and the WD bars are strong enough for the bed load and tonuge load, that it takes "about" 2 teeth to = 1 chain link of WD as a rule of thumb. It may be more like 1 3/4 to 1 7/8 links but I use 2 as it is easier to state. I do believe you that may not be seeing that but I think something else is not working in your favor in order to get it. Here is the Reese book showing 15 degrees and the statement about 1 tooth = 1” at the chain. Point number 3 on page 2. http://www.reeseprod.com/fitguides/pdf/N66542.pdf
And a here is the older 3 piece 58167
The new all cast 58167 has 13 degrees. Here it here on page 3. They never updated the HP trunnion instructions but this is the new all cast 58167 as also used in the Reese SC hitch http://www.reeseprod.com/fitguides/pdf/N66156.pdf
Now what does 15 degree of actual tilt look like? It's a lot....See here on mine which was taken just for this purpose. Your does not look like that.
I directly asked Reese Tech service on this head tilt bit and the serrated washer. Was told you can use the entire slot for head tilt to get the full 15 degrees of tilt and the serrated washer will still hold the full load even on my 1,700 WD hitch. And yes part of the serrated washer will have teeth hanging off not engaged with the hitch head.
So far, (there is always a 2nd….) I have only seen 1 hitch setup use all 15 degrees…. And when you are that far tilted something else is wrong. It is common to have 5, 6, 7 and maybe 8 degree tilt but 15??? The buddy I helped with that full tilt was here in my yard, a Yukon and a 850# to 900# tongue TT with 1,200# WD bars. We where out of tilt and the front of the truck just reached unhitch height. I said to him, this is not right. The head really look funky tipped that far. Then I looked at his receiver. Yup, he had several wind up in the receiver and it was eating up all the WD. He has since changed the reciever and all is well.
Maybe yours is the 2nd time…. I know you put a new receiver on your truck. Is that 1 pic you showed and the adjustment you are referring to with the new receiver? And I know that shank play in a receiver pin box can eat up at least 4 degrees of head tilt before 1 pound of WD is transferred. My Putnam XDR was like that on my prior 2500 Suburban.
Sorry I forgot to ask before, are your WD bars 1,200#’er and how much weight is in the truck bed behind the rear axle when towing to camp? I assume your loaded tongue weight is in the 1,000# range like your neat tongue scale is showing? And if you have a side pic of the hitch hooked up to the truck would be great. And while you are at it…. Check that your trunnion lugs are 1 1/8” nominal like I showed in the pic a post or 2 above and not 7/8".
Once you get your new hitch head, lets talk again as I see you already have what looks like a 1” high rise ball. That is good with your 6” frame. However I do not believe you need to go to a 2” hi ball. Especailly if you end up with the all cast 58167 as it has a higher ball mounting area.
EDIT 7-15-10 After thinking over night....
Once we get your hitch head setup moving the weight right your setup should fall in line with 5 to 6 links under tension and the 1” high rise and about 7 to 8 degrees of ball tilt should put you in the rigth ball park. And pending slop in the shank to receiver fit up is not excessive, your running 1,200# bars on 1,000# tongue and your reciever is working good without a large amount of weight aft of the rear axle in the truck bed.
Good luck on your hunt for the 58167 head…. The older 3 piece welded is a very good head. I ahve 2 of them and they work well. And if you get the new REV A all cast 58167 that is OK too.
John
* This post was
last
edited 07/15/10 05:53am by JBarca *
View edit history
John & Cindy
2005 Ford F350 Super Duty, 4x4; 6.8L V10 with 4.10
CC, SB, Lariat & FX4 package
21,000 GCWR, 11,000 GVWR
Ford Tow Command
1,700# Reese HP hitch & HP Dual Cam
2 1/2" Towbeast Receiver
2004 Sunline Solaris T310SR
(I wish we were camping!)
|
|
|
|
