MuddyPaws1
A State
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OK, so "go bad" might be the wrong word. Loss of data and corrupt files is more correct. I'm a techno geek. I have had to have owned over 100 different memory cards over the years. Always going bigger.
The argument about loss of the data on the hard drive unless it's backed up is kind of pointless. If you don't back up your data from SD and it goes bad then you don't have that data either....unless you have a magic SD card.
Or how about losing the card because you are switching between different cards. Well, that data is gone.
Tying up the camera while getting the footage off it is kinda a pointless argument also. You have to tie up the SD card to copy the data off it.
I also have a JVC HD Everio with SD cards. The Cannon shoots better quality video for my editing needs.
The Cannon stores the data in a HD file format that is directly usable by editing software. No capturing the footage or other delays like that. Rip it via fire wire and it's faster to copy the data than copying off SD.
Hard drives are not all that expensive, I upgraded mine to 120 gig (from 40gig) for just about 100 dollars. Installed in about 45 minutes with a set of yellow mini screw drivers from home depot. Now I have a 40 gig back up drive.
Biggest thing I like is storage capacity.
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8.1 Van
Millstone NJ
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teach32696 wrote:I am looking to purchase a new HD Camcorder and am wondering if there is anyone that has an HD and what kind it is, do you like it, what don't you like, etc. Any suggestions on getting one that records to disk as opposed to a card. Any info is greatly appreciated.
You can't record HD video to a disk unless it's a Blu-Ray disk and that is not going to happen. SDHC/SDXC is whats on the latest HD camcorders like the new Panasonic 1080p60 HD camcorder .
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Gdetrailer
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Mods, sorry for the long post but bear with me perhaps my following comments will be helpful for all who read this thread.
#1 MuddyPaws1 writes “OK, so "go bad" might be the wrong word. Loss of data and corrupt files is more correct.”
Regardless if it is a removable hard drive, flash card, CD, DVD and so on, the major reason that data will be corrupted is by not PROPERLY REMOVING the media. As I stated in another post, folks who lose or corrupt data on their card have done this by NOT following proper procedures.
The procedures are the same for flash memory, thumbdrives and USB hard drives.
When you plug one of these external devices to a Windows PC you must NEVER disconnect or remove the media UNTIL WINDOWS TELLS YOU THAT IT IS SAFE TO DO SO!!!
That is the reason for that little tray icon at the bottom of your Windows.
The reason for this is that Windows can and will open temp files on the external storage, it becomes a part of the OS at that time and it STAYS that way until you tell Windows to remove it.
You must NEVER remove the media while the media is being accessed whether it is being read or written to.
On portable devices it is the same rules are in effect, never remove card while it is turned on or accessing the card. For this reason most portable devices hide the card under the battery door, the draw back to this is you can damage the data on the card IF you open the door while the card is being accessed.
You follow those rules above and you will never lose a single file, in fact flash drives can and will keep the content far longer than any hard drive or even burnable CD/DVD.
I have been using flash cards in photo cameras since 2000, I have 4000+ photos and have never lost a photo due to file corruption.
#2 “I'm a techno geek. I have had to have owned over 100 different memory cards over the years. Always going bigger.”
Doesn’t matter if you are a “Techno Geek” or not, if you don’t play by the OS rules then you must accept the fact that you are taking a chance with damaging files, this goes for using external USB hard drives and thumb drives.
How many times have you “lost” files on your memory cards?
Each time you “lost” a file, where you too impatient to properly remove the cards( IE remove through Windows first or turn off device before removing)?
#3 “The argument about loss of the data on the hard drive unless it's backed up is kind of pointless. If you don't back up your data from SD and it goes bad then you don't have that data either....unless you have a magic SD card.”
Flash memory is far more stable than hard drives, I have personally witnessed a hard drive that would over time fade. You could low level reformat the drive and it would not find any bad sectors but after a few weeks of use the drive would start giving errors. Magnetic media of ANY type suffers this problem, the magnetic fields over time fade causing the drive to rely on internal error correction until the point it can not correct.
Magnetic media includes analog and digital versions like reel to reel, 8tracks, audio cassettes, 1 inch studio video tape, ¾ inch studio video tape, ½” VHS, Beta, 8mm and Hi8 video, Digital 8, DV tapes, 8, 51/4, 3.5 floppies, HARD DRIVES.
Burnable optical media is also unstable and subject to data loss from scratches, dust particles, and even finger prints on the disc (seen this one personally where someone had put a fingerprint on a blank DVD before inserting, result was unusable DVD, no retrievable data) . Burnable optical media relies on DYES which over time tends to degrade. UV light and heat exposure compounds the problem at a much faster rate. To preserve these you need to store in a dark cool place. Scratches and finger prints drive me nuts, most folk just toss discs on any old surface without any care. Doing this even once can degrade the data integrity to the point the data is not recoverable. Because of folks mis handling optical discs I make it known that they can not “borrow” any of my CDs, DVDs, period.
#4 “Or how about losing the card because you are switching between different cards. Well, that data is gone.”
If you “lose the SD card” when you are switching cards then you have no business changing out internal hard drives in a camcorder. Those screws are many times easier to lose and in this case you shouldn’t be using any electronic device.
Athough SD cards are small in size it should not be a problem finding it unless you are shooting footage in a jungle, swamp or changing while skydiving. Use your brains and you will not lose the cards.
You will not lose any data provided YOU FOLLOW CORRECT PROCEDURES BEFORE REMOVING THE CARD, PERIOD! The folks who complain about losing data, FAIL to follow the procedures, it is a shame since it only takes a few seconds to prepare the card for removal.
#5 “Tying up the camera while getting the footage off it is kinda a pointless argument also. You have to tie up the SD card to copy the data off it.”
You are not tying up the SD card, just insert another card and you are able to continue and unless you are recording 8 to 10 hrs of uninterruptable action in one shot you will never lose any recording action by swapping cards. Most folks are only recording short snippets of video 10, 20 seconds maybe up to 2 hrs for a stage play.
Break in post, see my next post for continued comments
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Gdetrailer
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#6 MuddyPaws1 writes “I also have a JVC HD Everio with SD cards. The Cannon shoots better quality video for my editing needs.
The Cannon stores the data in a HD file format that is directly usable by editing software.”
Sorry to say, your Cannon actually shoots in a compressed format, it is the nature of the beast. Granted with less compression but it is still there.
Now days with newer versions of editing software you CAN edit the AVCHD files with no additional loss since they NATIVELY AVCHD edit without converting to a different file format.
AVCHD is also NATIVELY supported by newer Blue Ray players, they can and will play AVCHD files in full HD. In addition you can Burn AVCHD files to a DVD (shortened time) the NEWER Blue Ray players marked with AVCHD WILL play the DVD in full HD.
AVCHD files also will play fine on your PC, I have played them on a P4 at 2.8ghz with no noticeable dropped frames.
#7 “No capturing the footage or other delays like that.”
Unless you are trying to record 8 to 10 hrs UNINTERUPTED footage this is just plain silly comment. I have not found any time lag with my JVC, it is ready to record in less than one second from the cold powerup. In fact many SD camcorders capture up to 3 seconds of video and audio BEFORE you even press the record button in temporary RAM (camera continually refreshes this). This results with NO LOST video due to time lag. With hard drives and other mechanical storage you have delays and latency while the drive is physically spinning up. In addition you have read write delays while the drive heads are moving from sector to sector.
#8 “Rip it via fire wire and it's faster to copy the data than copying off SD. “
One can’t argue about the speed of fire wire, BUT very few computers actually are built with fire wire already in place. One would have to ensure you could add in a fire wire card if not present and if you are working with laptops can be nearly impossible. It would be additional cost and often times hassle for less tech savy folks to deal with.
#9 “Hard drives are not all that expensive, I upgraded mine to 120 gig (from 40gig) for just about 100 dollars. Installed in about 45 minutes with a set of yellow mini screw drivers from home depot. Now I have a 40 gig back up drive.”
120 gig HD for $100 is just plain nuts, you can buy 1.5 TERRABITE drives for your desktop PC for under $150.
45 minutes is a LOT of down time, no one is going to be willing to field replace a hard drive wasting that much time. No one is going to want to carry around a set of mini screw drivers. No one is going to want to take the chance of LOOSING those TINY little screws.
It only takes seconds to swap a flash card, in fact with JVC and some others which have TWO slots the camcorder SWITCHES automatically for you, no down time, no intervention needed.
#10 “Biggest thing I like is storage capacity.”
You have LIMITED storage capacity, it is LIMITED to the drive size. With removable flash cards I have UNLIMITED storage since they can be swapped on the fly within seconds. My storage capacity is limited to how many cards I wish to take.
So ONE of the TEN arguments you make, you only have one SLIGHTLY valid point (fire wire) and even that is a HUGE stretch to say the least. It is slightly valid since 99.9% of the PCs would require adding in a fire wire card at an additional expense (If it could be added in, since some laptops and all netbooks do not have any PC card slots).
Break in post, see my next post for continued comments
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Gdetrailer
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MuddyPaws1, I am not saying that flash memory is perfect or the ultimate solution but it is a much better way to capture, store and retrieve your data RELIABLY than mechanical or optical methods as long as you PROPERLY REMOVE the media. You can trash the data on a external USB hard drive in the same manner.
I waited to buy a HD camcorder until they started bringing out more models with flash memory capability. The reason for this is I have over the years repaired many types of tape type VCRS, camcorders and so on. The main down fall of all of them is the mechanical aspect, the moving parts have a lot of limitations and life span. Any mechanical item regardless if it records to tape, optical or hard drive WILL fail. This is compounded by the fact that a camcorder does not sit on a shelf, when it is being used it is being handled. Camcorders are subjected to more severe conditions than a home PC and therefore will fail faster when the main data storage is a mechanical device.
Whether you like it or not, it is the future. Even many PCs now days are using SSD drives in place of mechanical hard drives since SSD drives are immune to vibration damage (SSD drives are a form of flash memory). Many industrial PCs, car PCs (do a search for MINI ITX PCs), and netbooks use SSD drives.
MuddyPaws, honestly if you are that picky about your video you are shooting then you seriously need to skip the CONSUMER equipment and buy PROFESSIONAL equipment. I have in the past worked with PROFESSIONAL video equipment, it is far better suited for your interests since from all of your arguments it sounds like you attempt to create Hollywood type productions on consumer equipment.
There is no consumer version that can fully match the PROFESSIONAL video equipment for the most “demanding” eye, even in HD. Professional equipment has much better lenses (larger lenses allows for larger apertures which results in much more detail), better (and more) pickup often times using three different CCDs in order to capture everything as possible (consumer equipment typically use one CCD, have much smaller lenses which severely limit the quality like color rendition,saturation, depth, brightness range, noise and zoom. Your demands and goals of Consumer equipment is unrealistic. I don’t doubt that you get mighty fine video, but you would find that the proper equipment for the job makes it even better.
But even with Professional equipment, your “productions” will not fully match what folks who do this for a living can do. The reason for that is in large productions they have MANY different talented people who specialize with narrow aspects of the overall shoot. They have dedicated lighting people, camera angle people, sound recording people and many other behind the scenes folks. They often have budgets just un thinkable to the amateur photographer. They have special equipment like STEADYCAM rigs, Boom rigs and such. They do not just go out and “point and shoot”, every step and detail down to the last millisecond is completely mapped and scripted.
I have worked commercial video for a short time with a real actual studio. I know and understand the work that can be involved with doing a broadcast able shoot. Often many retakes at different angles will occur until the right look is achieved. Sometimes spending DAYs just to get a few seconds worth of perfection.
Even though I have done this work (commercial video) I would never consider attempting to make my “shoots” to be professional, to me it simply is not worth wasting that much time, it requires more than one person and a lot of patience to boot. My stuff is strictly for my own consumption (IE kids, vacation, and touristy type of stuff). Most likely many folks asking questions like the OP are in the same frame of mind.
For the OP’s discussion perhaps it is better to think about CONSUMER uses not Professional studio use.
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Gdetrailer
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8.1 Van writes “You can't record HD video to a disk unless it's a Blu-Ray disk and that is not going to happen.”
Actually that is not fully correct, AVCHD files CAN be written to a DVD disc, there is several trade offs.
It will not be playable on standard DVD players. To watch a DVD with AVCHD video you need a newer generation BLUE RAY PLAYER which will be marked with AVCHD .
Play time is decreased but if your video project doesn’t need the full length of a Blue Ray disc, this is a good way to save some money and burn to DVD.
AVCHD also can be copied to hard drives, flash drives and played back on many PCs provided you have fast enough PC and a new enough Media player that supports AVCHD file format.
On top of that you can buy dedicated standalone Media Extender or Media Player boxes which are able to play the majority if not all varieties of photo, music and video files. These can be standalone (internal/external HD, thumb drives, SD and possible some other flash memory or networked to your PC.
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8.1 Van
Millstone NJ
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Gdetrailer wrote:8.1 Van writes “You can't record HD video to a disk unless it's a Blu-Ray disk and that is not going to happen.”
Actually that is not fully correct, AVCHD files CAN be written to a DVD disc, there is several trade offs.
It will not be playable on standard DVD players. To watch a DVD with AVCHD video you need a newer generation BLUE RAY PLAYER which will be marked with AVCHD .
Play time is decreased but if your video project doesn’t need the full length of a Blue Ray disc, this is a good way to save some money and burn to DVD.
AVCHD also can be copied to hard drives, flash drives and played back on many PCs provided you have fast enough PC and a new enough Media player that supports AVCHD file format.
On top of that you can buy dedicated standalone Media Extender or Media Player boxes which are able to play the majority if not all varieties of photo, music and video files. These can be standalone (internal/external HD, thumb drives, SD and possible some other flash memory or networked to your PC.
There is a zero chance Sony or anyone else is going to come out with a HD camcorder that records to DVD disks.
Quote:I am looking to purchase a new HD Camcorder and am wondering if there is anyone that has an HD and what kind it is, do you like it, what don't you like, etc. Any suggestions on getting one that records to disk as opposed to a card. Any info is greatly appreciated.
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Gdetrailer
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8.1 Van writes "There is a zero chance Sony or anyone else is going to come out with a HD camcorder that records to DVD disks"
Somewhat correct, while it would be doubtful that a HD camcorder will be built WITH a DVD drive it doesn't mean that it can't be done by YOU.
The JVC camcorder lines actually interface to external DVD or BD drive they sell to allow you a way to burn your HD video yourself without a computer.
If that isn't enough, the JVC line can DIRECTLY be connected to an external USB hard drive without a computer. This allows you to backup your SD cards or share your video with others using Media Players.
If that isn't enough, you can hook the camcorder to a PC and copy or burn AVCHD direcly to DVD. Or downgrade to DVD quality and burn a DVD player compatible disc.
And if that isn't enough options you can simply remove the SD card and drop it into your card reader and burn to DVD.
Like I stated, AVCHD can be burnt onto a DVD but to play it on a standard DVD player just won't happen.
If you want the DVD to play on a standard player then you have to EXPORT and downgrade the video to DVD quality. But honestly if you want a DVD to play in a DVD player then don't spend the money on HD, just go buy a SD camcorder, because you will be throwing out a lot of quality that was recorded.
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1492
No. Virginia
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Hitachi does make a full 1080HD Camcorder that records directly to Blu-Ray discs here. However, it was not clear to me whether the OP's "disc" reference was for a Blu-Ray or Hard Drive capable HD Camcorder?
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chinrv
Colorado
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We replaced an old Sony 8 camcorder (non-digital) with a new Canon FS20 that uses SD and SDHC cards instead of tape. Really do miss the old unit. It now seems that almost every new unit ( I know, there must be a few exceptions out there, but not in the same price range) uses the little LCD screen instead of the old stick-your-eye-against-the-rubber-cup type viewfinder. Out in bright sun it's almost impossible to see what's on the screen and it's much harder to hold the camcorder steady (because it is so light) without the support of keeping it against your head. Yes, it's great to just pop out the card and stick it in the computer to view the video, but I also miss just fast forwarding or rewinding, and watching what's going by, to look at the exact scene I want. Ahhhh, progress.
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