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RE: Arrogant
This thread has certainly been informative and some of the points made by posters are spot on the money.
I have watched with great interest over the last few years how the spec's of pick-up trucks have steadily climbed with changes to drivetrain and frame config. while the overall footprint of the vehicle changed very little in it's UVWR.
This improvement to spec's has induced some of the crowd who became devotees of the class 7/8 conversion to RV status for purposes of towing larger fivers to move back to the more convenient pick-ups. There are now 3500's out there hooked to the same trailer I found towing with my class 6 optimal. These folks I've known for years and respected their ability to determine "safe" as opposed to marginal and "iffy". A significant number are fulltimers who tow over many miles per year.
Your average hot-shotter delivering these heavy things racks up significant safe miles with few recorded accidents. Heavy trailers arrive on dealers lots all over the country somehow and it would be my bet it would be rare indeed to see them being towed by classes above 5.
It needs be said that advancements to trailer equipment also plays a part in this discussion as some folks might make the move to a larger trailer based on that trailer having hydraulic disc brakes rather than the 10/12" magnetic variety.
In short; if we go by "feel" and feel alone; I will be one who would "feel" safer towing with a class 6/7/8 over any pick-up based on my experience with the breed and ability to drive it competently with a thorough knowledge of all it's systems and behaviours.
This is not to say I would feel "unsafe" towing a heavy trailer with any properly "combined weight rated" pick-up truck. I would simply adjust my driving habits vis-a-vis hill descents etc., accordingly, as would the rest of you.
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bstark
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04/03/12 07:09am |
Tow Vehicles
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RE: Arrogant
Following this thread is truly informative and entertaining! Many of the points have been made time and again and it seems to be turning into an arguement (civil mind you) to see who is gonna have the last word.
You can really see when name calling starts that nothing constructive can be offered.
4X4ord, and Marty seem to be offering reasoned arguments IMO. BenK, while I see your point. 4X4ord's point makes sence in that inexperience really wouldn't matter if the inexperienced driver/tower had to much combination vehicle (for them) even if the TV was fully up to the task. If in a class A motor coach, you lack training/experience but have a license that says you can, legally you can. That's when they say, you know just enough to be dangerous.
An example of this, in America most states will allow you to test to get a motor cycle liscense with a say 200 cc MC. You then have a license that says you know how to ride/operate a MC. You now can go out and buy a 1100 cc MC and ride it legally. You at that point know just enough to be dangerous. For those that know what I'm talking about, it is a VAST difference between a 200 cc MC and an 1100 cc MC. You see it all the time, solo accidents W/MC's and inexperienced riders that thought they knew what they were doing.
So.., with all of that said. I fully see the points Marty and 4X4ord are making. If I can sum it up (what I'm saying), just because your TV has the ability and you fall within the spec's doesn't make you safe. Only time and experience can do that and if I may, my signature kind'a speaks to this.
For the person that has to ask, can my vehicle do this? It's assumed that the person asking the question has a 35' Jayco and a WD hitch and they want to know if their 1.6L Smart Car can do the job. I've seen people with fully capable vehicles ask this question. That takes away from the "logic" of if they have to ask.., and the advise that follows.
Another great post!
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bstark
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04/03/12 06:44am |
Tow Vehicles
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RE: Arrogant
Yes I realize these ratings exist and you would think they might mean something but my whole point is that they don't. It is not a standardized system - each manufacturer develops there own tests so they can rate their trucks at whatever they want. If they need to up the rating they can simply change the test. The ratings are for marketing purposes. Maybe using maximum tire ratings is a more meaningful number. I am not at all meaning to come across as arrogant. I honestly think that any experienced driver (even if he has little to no towing experience) would feel very comfortable and safe driving my truck with even a 20,000 lb trailer behind it. (and as I have said before the GM and Dodge would likely perform very similarly) I just happen to have 17,500 lbs hooked up to the truck at the moment and so just for kicks I unhooked the trailer brakes and measured the truck's stopping distance from 20 mph. It took 21 feet without trailer brakes. Nothing about the way the truck handles this weight gives any indication that the truck is being heavily taxed. I would much sooner have my 18 year old daughter tow a 20,000 lb trailer with this truck than turn her loose in the highway tractor without a trailer hooked up. So if someone with little experience towing had a 20,000 lb RV I believe he would be much safer with a new dually diesel than a class 8 highway tractor as his tow vehicle even though the 1 ton might be "overloaded" according to manufacturer's ratings. Depending on his pin weight I might even suggest that he would be fine with a SRW. I would suggest the tire ratings should be used as the pin weight limitation and the max trailer capacity should be based on what the engine alone can hold back on a 8% slope in second gear. (that gives low gear and brakes for Mr. Murphy's crossing)
Well, forums are known for differing opinions. This one is yours and you're entitled to it.
I towed my 18,500 gvwr trailer with a class 6 with air brakes etc., and definitely felt safer than my previous Duramx 2500 towing a 14,000gvwr fiver. That's my opinion.
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bstark
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04/02/12 09:20pm |
Tow Vehicles
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RE: Arrogant
For those wondering about the stopping distance, he does get to use the trailer/truck brakes in conjunction, not just ruck or trailer.
Bruce, I have not seen down here LEO's or equal checking hitch ratings. BUT, that is a different law, not a "weight law". One thing we ALL need to keep in mind, if the LEO wants you off the road, THEY CAN, and WILL find a law to do so. The hitch issue while related to weights, is not a weight law. The rules listed from FL are weight laws.
I am not asking ANY of you to like how the laws are spelled out, only to know, they are there, how they spell things out, then choose the how and what you will tow with. As somewhat spelled out above, some of you should see in some regards, I am more conservative than many of you in some respects. Less in others.
Marty
The MTO up here are tasked with everything specific to commercial AND safety regs for vehicles of all sizes and weights. There tends to be an overlap of authority with LEO's and the MTO guys both watching cars for sagging butts or bald tires etc., Once you go over the 3500 class of vehicle the LEO's subscribe to hands off unless they see a commercial rig being operated in a very obviously unsafe manner such as DUI/DWI, unsecured load shifting on a flatbed or dangling spring pack etc..
A great post.
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bstark
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04/01/12 11:29am |
Tow Vehicles
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RE: Arrogant
bstark, didn't mean any disrespect about your post, I did misunderstand some of it, but mostly it was one of my mostly useless rants that I probably shouldn't have "went on" about. You alway's have informative and well thought out post and if I came off wrong about your's, I apologize.
NC Hauler; no offense taken at all. I rambled in my post and failed to make my point. Do that a lot now it seems. :?
No apology was necessary. You made sense of my hash dinner.
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bstark
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04/01/12 11:12am |
Tow Vehicles
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RE: Arrogant
They've been particularly interested in the hitch on the back of the trucks where I live in the Kitchener Waterloo area of Ontario. With lakes abounding up here, it's not unusual to see a 28' fiberglass cruiser of enormous weight behind a 2500 series with it's stock receiver hitch and they (MTO) sure don't like seeing that.
I watched as an MTO (Ministry of Transport Ontario) officer had a haranguing session in a Dairy Queen parking lot that resulted in a nice Sea Ray cruiser, being unhooked and left behind while the guy went for a bigger truck based on that receiver hitch alone. He was pretty thoroughly giving the owner a drubbing while walking him around the truck pointing at the tire ratings and that rear receiver but never once referred to the door placard.
I agree wholeheartedly with the postulating that folks who've towed over many years with less than optimal equipment have developed a skill-set that doesn't automaticly occur by default when someone "decides" to embark on an RV'ing or Boating lifestyle and buys their first pick-up truck.
Don't know if I'd chalk it up as those who have towed over many years with less than optimal equipment as having a "better skill set" than those of us who have been towing for years and years and years...I don't believe in "luck", but if I did, I'd probably call it "lucky" that nothing ever tore up on their truck prematurely or that they didn't have a blow out or accident because, for want of a better phrase, they were towing "over", though legal as has so aptly been explained...maybe not in the "moral" sense of the word, BUT, as to, politics or the "letter of the law"...doesn't make it right...but I'm beating another dead horse...
Those of us who "try" to stay within "safety limits" of our trucks have also,( some of us), learned the hard way when we towed a "too heavy" 5er with "not enough" truck....been there, done that, have the T-shirt......Been through, up, down and all around those mountainous curvy steep country roads towing, being pushed around, pulling the car seat upholstry out of my posterior more than several times thinking, I need a "stouter" truck...and I've been driving and towing for 40 plus years....so I DO have a pretty decent skill set, only change has been to use a little more common sense than I did before and apply basic arithmatic to some towing forumulas to try to match a TV to what I'm towing.
As someone else stated, maybe more than one, that we do have new rv owners coming on these forums asking for advice as to what truck to tow with to get the job done for what they'll be towing...and I also know that some go over board and will recommend a 1 ton dually to tow a pop-up with, (yeah, I embellished there, just like others do)...and I also know, like this thread and several others that there are those that most know they are towing well over their trucks ratings and justifying it by saying ,(1), "its legal, (2) "everyone else is doing it" or (3).."been doing it for a long time and no issues at all".
Just don't know if that is the message we want to send someone if we REALLY know the correct/honest to goodness answer...Don't know if I want to take even a NEW 3/4 ton truck and tow 16,000# with it or a 1 ton SRW truck and tow 19,000# with it...don't know how I can feel good about telling someone to do that when it just "MIGHT" cause prematrue wear or abuse to there trucks sooner than later, or they break down somewhere or get into an accident....yeah, I know, that would never happen...hey, it only takes ONE TIME, and I've SEEN the one time that left a teenager dead.....I'd just soon err to the side of safety for those who REALLY ask for the help, then to tell them they can go by a registration that would make them legal to tow whatever they want to tow and don't worry about GVWR's, RAWR's or GCWR's, they're just a bunch of numbers that don't mean diddly squat.
This post is right on the money and expresses the point I failed to make in my effort.
I alluded to those of us who had towed with trucks having nothing but six cylinder engines or perhaps the old venerable flathead V8 and really poor drum brakes developing a respect for how fast a problem can materialize while towing something heavier than the truck itself. This generally makes us very reticent to go out on todays very busy highways with something that regardless of how confidant you might feel about your destination being just up the road, does not negate the need to factor in other stuff like 4 wheelers having a tendancy to ignore common sense and pull out in front of you from a sidestreet etc..
We need to keep in mind that regardless of experience, the rules have been formulated to address the lowest common denominator in the equation and limit our advice to those same criteria as suggested in this respondants post.
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bstark
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03/31/12 09:26am |
Tow Vehicles
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RE: Arrogant
They've been particularly interested in the hitch on the back of the trucks where I live in the Kitchener Waterloo area of Ontario. With lakes abounding up here, it's not unusual to see a 28' fiberglass cruiser of enormous weight behind a 2500 series with it's stock receiver hitch and they (MTO) sure don't like seeing that.
I watched as an MTO (Ministry of Transport Ontario) officer had a haranguing session in a Dairy Queen parking lot that resulted in a nice Sea Ray cruiser, being unhooked and left behind while the guy went for a bigger truck based on that receiver hitch alone. He was pretty thoroughly giving the owner a drubbing while walking him around the truck pointing at the tire ratings and that rear receiver but never once referred to the door placard.
I agree wholeheartedly with the postulating that folks who've towed over many years with less than optimal equipment have developed a skill-set that doesn't automaticly occur by default when someone "decides" to embark on an RV'ing or Boating lifestyle and buys their first pick-up truck.
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bstark
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03/31/12 07:22am |
Tow Vehicles
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RE: Frame Bent ... HELP -- Need Advice
i would put a new set of hangers on a peice of tubing, cut the old off and weld the new subframe onto it. you could even recess the subframes into the ibeam to keep correct height. then i would put some crossmembers in to stabilize the whole works. i would then proceed to tow the wheels off of it.
Could be wrong but I'm thinking from the pic's that the frame is "C" channel and not "I" beam as it's a lighter trailer.
Repairing it is easy peasy and "boxing" that portion of the frame along the length from front hanger to rear one would solve any further worries of that bottom flange folding up on you.
Is that the street-side or curb-side? If curb side, I'd be inclined to think the previous owner hit a tall curb with leading wheel, driving the spring pack back and bending the center hanger in the process. If you have a spare wheel under it, I'd check that out for a dented rim as he may have changed it to the "good one" to further hide his boo boo.
While performing repair have the axles and spring packs checked for damage as well. A hit hard enough to warp a bottom flange could also have bent an axle end or fractured the leading spring pack right at centering hole.
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bstark
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03/31/12 05:55am |
Fifth-Wheels
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RE: Those 26' Penske Rental Truck Diesels(International)
I had a rental (Ryder :( ) International WorkStar a couple weeks ago...33,000lb GVWR, MaxxForce DT engine (I think 225HP), 6-speed Eaton UltraShift automated manual, rear air ride. That truck rode as well as a pickup. It was smoother & quieter than my Cherokee. Expansion joints that shake my usual Freightliner M2 like a baby's rattle were felt as only a well-controlled THUMP through the chassis, even empty. The engine was pretty well muted (you could always hear it, especially when the fan kicked on, buit it was never objectionable), wind noise was minimal, there was only minor tire noise (drives were agressive Bridgestone M726 traction tires, nearly new with deep tread).
Contrast that with my usual pile, a 2007 Freightliner M2...rides like an oxcart (also air ride), the engine is strong (250HP C7) but cranky and very loud, the interior quality is apalling, with random squeaks, groans, rattles, pops, bangs, and all sorts of wind noise. The HVAC blower roars like an airplane, though the airflow is pretty weak. Mine hasn't yet, but the temperature tends to get stuck on full-hot. The FL is as loud idling as the IH is on the highway. The IH is no louder at 65 with the windows OPEN than the FL is with them closed.
The FL is strictly a low-bidder junker, I can't wait to get out of it...the International is civilized enough that I would be happy to use one as a commuter vehicle.
John; the low number trannies like the Six speed are limited way down in torque warranty too, so 600 Ft/Lbs might have been what the engine was de-rated to for that truck with it's Ultra Shift. I haven't had a reason to peruse the more recent spec's from Eaton or Meritor in a while.
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bstark
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03/28/12 08:32am |
Tow Vehicles
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RE: Those 26' Penske Rental Truck Diesels(International)
IIRC majority are the DT466. There are a few with the smaller V8 versions, depending upon the gvwr of the chassis. You would have to get a 26K+ gvwr version to get the dt570.
As far as the 6.0/6.4 V8 goes, yes both are used in Fords and IHC. You would have to have a 4200 or 4100 model to get the V8, if it was a 4300, it had the DT466, 4400's have the DT570 for the most part. Ford frankly with ALL of the V8 IHC motors tweaked them to meet their specs. As otherwise, last I looked at the V8's in IHC, the max HP was around 230-250 with mid 600 lb ft of torque, max rpm was around 2800-3000. Ford is pushing 3500-4000 IIRC, hence where a lot of the issues with the Ford versions came from with the 6.0/6.4 versions IMHO. Even the T444E/7.3psd did not have the same 3-4 HP/torque options except in the F650 as IHC used in those trucks.
Not trying to say Ford was there worst enemy, but, sometimes one has to look in the mirror and be able to say some of the issue was "MY fault!"
Marty
You nailed it. The basic engine design was fine till you needed to be king of the hill. IMO the tunes Ford invented was like getting 100 lbs of potatoes in a ten pound bag.
On edit:
Hi Bruce, haven't heard from you in a while :H How is the golf game by now? Hope life is still treating you well even after your RV'ing days.
Well hello yourself Rick; golfing three times a week is wearing me down, kinda crave gear jamming that ol ten speed of mine from time to time but then the craving passes :B
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bstark
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03/28/12 08:26am |
Tow Vehicles
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RE: Those 26' Penske Rental Truck Diesels(International)
2800 miles without lifting the hood?
That's why I would never buy a rental vehicle.
Common guys! I monitored the oil pressure and gauges like a hawk on this trip.
I realize that checking the old oil dip stick is important.......
If you folks knew what are family went through in the last couple months to even end up in Northwest Ohio at this time of the year.....
well, you might think differently. Wife lost job, couldn't make house payments, had to sell house.....all of this in 2 months time...
Get a 30 yard dumpster and throw away lots of good stuff cuz we had no time to Craigslist it.
Had a big estate sale and practically gave away everything including many of my dad's antique carpenter tools. It was heart wrenching!
And I get spanked for not checking the oil on the moving trucks? Yes it would have been a smart idea, but ASAP, and feeling like I was in a daze was more like how we all felt.
All I can say is that the Penske's got us there, and ran flawlessly.
Actually, we didn't even check the Cummins oil stick until we got to Ohio. Changed it's oil just before the move/drive with Chevron Delo, and a WIX oil filter, and a new paper element filter.
Oil level after 2,800 miles was right at the top(12 quarts).
Personally, I wouldn't mind buying one of those Penske's as they do maintain them much better than U-Haul. U-Haul 26' trucks are all gassers.
No spanking from this corner. You've basicly described the norm for any International truck. I ordered and built a toter from an 04 4400/DT530 (see profile pic) and that thing ran flawlessly throughout my ownerhip and is still performing trouble free for it's third owner now.
Remember though; you probably had the van loaded to the gunwhales so a better ride was achieved through heavy weight on axles. They tend to be harsh riding little rascals in the classes from 4 up to 7. I had complete air ride on my truck with the lightest rated bags they allowed under Diamond Spec system and it still rode like a Sherman Tank.
Sorry to hear the circumstances requiring your move were not of the purely volunteer kind but you got 'er dun! Hope stuff gets better for you.
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bstark
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03/27/12 07:24pm |
Tow Vehicles
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RE: Inspecting for supplemental braking systems in Canada?
Thanks to all for your imput! I am not trying to skirt the law and I'm sorry if I gave that impression. Without getting into a new and long debate we will just leave it at that. I will be getting the brakes installed in 3 weeks. Thanks again to all! and SAFE TRAVELS. :W
That's good thinking as an RCMP safety checkpoint is no fun for anyone who isn't current/compliant with their equipment.
A visitor better have his bases covered.
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bstark
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03/27/12 07:08pm |
RVing in Canada and Alaska
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RE: Black water flush not letting water in.
Maybe some "light shedding" on this might be helpful.
Your black tank flush line MUST have a backflow preventor/vacuum breaker installed to prevent black water from the tank from flowing back to the street water hook-up. The theory is to install the lines in such a way that they rise up behind a shower cabinet or within a wall cavity so that the weight of the water column within those lines falls back towards the tank when pressure is relieved and back flow preventor opens against it's very light spring due to the vacuum created when that column of water falls back towards the tank allowing air into the line and "breaking the vacuum" and threby preventing syphoning of water back into the streeside hookup. Whew!!
It is VERY common for the preventor valve to be installed "backwards" as described in previous posts.
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bstark
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03/21/12 07:14pm |
Fifth-Wheels
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RE: Newmar Fifth Wheels
Gitane: You face the conundrum that many have faced before you and you've got a big advantage with knowing your coach inside out.
Many of the high end Carriage units had not one, but two steps in the bedroom area and I remain convinced that folks who owned them just didn't notice that after a while. Storage area usually comes at a sacrifice elsewhere in framework size and configuration.
All of your appliances have not received any meaningful redesign in the area of reliability such as fridges having a better thicker wall tubing in the coils or better circuit boards etc., problems of yesterday are still there today with many units fridges crapping out after a couple of years of usage. Same story for A/C units and water heaters.
If your unit is clean and dry inside with no roof weaknesses and the frame and suspension has proven to be reliable, I'd be one to advise keeping the rig as it's build quality will be hands down better than anything rolling out of ANY shop today.
RV shows are really an eye-opener when you really look into the nooks and cranny's of these things and notice the cheap hardware, woodwork, plumbing fixtures you just wouldn't tolerate in a sticks and bricks. getting on your back and actually wriggling under one will often open your eyes to the many corners they've cut on stuff like the underbelly covering and insulation package.
As an example; I'd be willing to bet your unit came out of the factory with minimum 60oz carpeting with the new stuff all less than 40oz and when you point that out to people, they don't even know what the h*** you're talking about.
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bstark
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03/14/12 07:41pm |
Fifth-Wheels
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RE: Newmar Fifth Wheels
Anybody here remember the LondonAire trailer that was the pattern for later Newmar products?
We deserve what's happening now with our demand of deep discounting for merely walking through the showroom door leading to manufacturer's cheapening everything to keep profits rolling in.
We also contributed to the demise of the better rigs by purchasing absolutely crappy outfits with lots of "eye candy". We bought into the optioned-to-the-hilt "sows ear" type of buying that sent signals to all the builders that while we claim to want quality we willingly bought junk as long as it came with an electric awning, dishwasher or a fireplace.
Don't be surprised if Walmart starts marketing a trailer for the masses AND sells all they can bring over from China.
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bstark
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03/13/12 07:31pm |
Fifth-Wheels
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RE: Just Can't Fix Stupid!
Well if only CAN-AM had fixed him up....:(
Naah; if it had been Can-Am that set him up, they would have suggested he trade down to a PT Cruiser to pull a 24 footer loaded to the gunwhales, but with stabilizer bars of course! :S
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bstark
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03/09/12 06:40pm |
Tow Vehicles
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RE: Meth Bust At RV Park
RV parks can be entertaining to say the least. We were staying at one in Victoria Texas on our way to the gulf coast and watched a full blown "domestic" develope into a knock down, drag out fight between two parents of two, under ten year old kiddies living in a 26' pull-behind trailer.
Really sad to see both parents in handcuffs and kiddies being taken by child services with the pet dog going to the local SPCA. We couldn't help thinking how times must have been so tough for them, reduced to living in a small trailer and now they've just went and made it a whole lot tougher.
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bstark
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03/09/12 06:28pm |
General RVing Issues
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RE: Crossing border from Port Huron, Mich., on July 4
Two addtional cautions: fuel up before you cross and have a thermos of coffee to sip as you go. That Hwy 402 is a long drive withour much on it before you get to London area. It is all new pavement though.
A long drive?
It is less than sixty miles from Sarnia to London,
not exactly my idea of a long drive!
Yeah: I should have clarified fuel up for monetary reasons and the rest was sheer boredom from the Bluewater to London and even beyond after the transition to 401.
JMHO but our highways aren't nearly as user friendly as the U.S Interstates.
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bstark
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03/09/12 06:18pm |
RVing in Canada and Alaska
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RE: Crossing border from Port Huron, Mich., on July 4
Two addtional cautions: fuel up before you cross and have a thermos of coffee to sip as you go. That Hwy 402 is a long drive withour much on it before you get to London area. It is all new pavement though.
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bstark
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03/08/12 06:00pm |
RVing in Canada and Alaska
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RE: Wireless remote for lift/lower 5th wheel
The solenoid is required to control and direct the very high amperage required to feed through those 6 guage wires.
Any RV jack motors I've looked at had 12 guage at the largest so I'd be surprised if you'd even need a solenoid for any of them.
I kinda think the multi-function rocker switches used on most trailers are capable of the amperage load without a solenoid.
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bstark
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03/08/12 05:47pm |
Fifth-Wheels
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