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RE: RT Front End Lift - Fiasco
On ours, we found them to be better than the originals for ride. I have heard others say they were harsh, but that was not the case with ours. On small bumps, we found them to be about the same, and on big bumps, much smoother because the suspension didn't bottom out on the bump stops. When we put on the Bilsteins, it smoothed out the small bumps, and stiffened up the big ones. When all was said and done, we are smoother on small bumps by a bit, with also an improvement in comfort on the rest of the bumps, except very large ones, which the Bilsteins stiffen up for added control. We have been very happy with the ride, and I think we have had ours the longest time (not longest miles) of those that have done them. We haven't tried it yet, but the higher rate springs in the front, and the swaybar in the back, should increase the front traction enough to allow us to drop our front tire pressure a bit, which will give an even smoother ride. We run 65psi now, and will probably try 60 and see how handles.
Our springs were pretty much identical in length as the stock ones, but with more coils and much bigger diameter wire.
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booster
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02/09/12 07:22pm |
Class B - Camping Van Conversions
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RE: Fedex non-Sprinter
Maybe you saw one of FedEx's new energy efficient trucks:
FedEx Adds More Than 4,000 New, Fuel Efficient Vehicles
or one of these:
Maxx Automotive
Definitely not the electrics, but it did look a lot like the Ultramax in the link, and they mention Fedex and it being a replacement for Sprinters.
Upfitted by Turtletop on Ford or GM. Very remindful of the Roatrek 200, but with dual wheels. It sure looks like that it would be an interesting starting point for do it yourself version.
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booster
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02/09/12 11:45am |
Class B - Camping Van Conversions
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RE: Fedex non-Sprinter
Probably a route or load that required more room. I've seen every size Fedex delivery vehicle in my neighborhood from a van to an extended box truck
As have I, but I have not seen a Sprinter size van that was not a Sprinter in a long, long time.
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booster
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02/09/12 11:22am |
Class B - Camping Van Conversions
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Fedex non-Sprinter
Certainly not trying to stir up the old Sprinter vs other brands controversy for Class B's, but I saw a very interesting thing on the way to work today.
What I saw was Chevy dually cutaway, I think a 3500, with a fiberglass box on the back that looked almost like a slightly "bulged" Sprinter. It was fairly short in length, tall, and at first glance from the rear, I thought it was a dually Sprinter. Maybe slightly larger box than a Spinter, and definitely smaller than the dually box trucks they use when the need more room than a Sprinter. Didn't notice if it was a diesel or not.
Is Fedex moving away from Sprinters? If so, that would put a big hurt on the usage in this country.
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booster
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02/09/12 09:54am |
Class B - Camping Van Conversions
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RE: Roadtrek on Chevrolet frame
I have a 2011 Roadtrek 190 Popular on a Chevy 3500 van chassis. No special problems. The mileage is fair with the large V8. It runs well. Like with any Class B there is a low undercarriage clearance. On inspecting a potential purchase check under the chassis for any damage, scraping, corrosion, etc. Recent articles on my site, linked below, talk about our experience driving it, parking it, and next week (Wed) the ride.
We live in an area where a Class B is rare thing to see. Chevy service here has never seen one before. This may be the case elsewhere too - or not. I am sure any other company's vehicle service center would be the same. We have not had any need to take it to them yet. When we do I am sure it will be interesting...
As is mentioned, probably the biggest complaint with the Chevies is ground clearance, especially with Roadtreks. The good news is that the parts are now available to lift them 2", which makes all the difference in the world. We have an 07 C190P with the 2" lift and love it. The Chevies are also known to handle very well compared to many other chassis.
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booster
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02/08/12 04:27pm |
Class B - Camping Van Conversions
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RE: CCA on a battery
Keep in mind that no lead acid battery should be "deep cycled" and that the normal duty cycle of an RV use profile along with the reserve capacity needs and other factors tend to make cycle life a very minor issue for RV use.
So Bryan, just how do you use your batteries to not take them below 50%? There are many folks who boondock for days at a time, and can't put in enough battery to do it above 50%. Would you give up a prime spot in Glacier Park to go somewhere with hookups, outside the park, to keep from going under 50%? Not me, and there are lots of places like that where many folks camp. On what do you base your statement that cycle life is not an issue. You always want data, so you must have it for this. I have asked you this question several times, but you have never answered it, and always seem to disappear from threads as soon as anyone pushes you for real answers and data.
For best battery service, put your attention into proper care, use, and maintenance rather than minor differences in specification or label. If your RV doesn't have a converter that does multiple stage charging and provides a storage maintenance mode featuring a sulfation inhibiting technique, then an upgrade is one of the best things you can do for your batteries.
You are again touting the good care of batteries to extend their useful life, which I totally agree with. A main part of this is your recommendation that a good multistep charger be used, which I also agree with. But, on another thread, you just stated that driving for many (100+) hours with full batteries seeing 14.1+ volts would not affect battery life. If that was the case, you wouldn't need a multistep charger other times. So what do you think about the high voltage while driving, and what do you do about it.
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booster
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02/04/12 02:52pm |
Beginning RVing
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RE: CCA on a battery
Friend of mine just bought a new 5th wheel. I went to check the AH on his deep cycle Interstate battery and it was not listed but the CCA was. It was definitely a deep cycle battery and also had Marine Use on the label. Given Interstate batteries are suppose to be of good quality, based on what I have read on this forum, it was a real surprise to see CCA and not the AH listed.
Yes the number game seems to be changing in the deep cycle battery industry.
For RV use I had rather have a 60 pound 500 CCA battery vs. a 60 pound 1000 CCA battery. Fewer but thicker plates will give more years of service with all else being equal in my view.
In the end how much lead you have is important and not the CCA or AH numbers that do not alway mean the same thing with different brands.
True deep cycle batteries are NOT typically used in the RV industry but they are instead a heavier (fewer but thicker plates) version sponge lead batteries.
Beware of the number games the marketing departments play. For expample some print the AH rating and others use RC ratings in their marketing efforts. The two are not the same measurement.
I totally agree, although I am sure Bryan will be back in with "no such thing as a true deep cycle battery". It brings up an interesting point. You mention that the "marine deep cycle" batteries are just thicker plate sponge batteries. Again, I agree, but it brought up an interesting question. As far as I know, Trojan does not make any plain old, high CCA, thin plate, sponge batteries, so my guess is that their 12v batteries that list CCA, like an SCS200, are really real deep cycle batteries, that they have rated with CCA (they are quite low on CCA). That would definitely make them different than most of the marine/rv batteries that are CCA rated.
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booster
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02/04/12 02:38pm |
Beginning RVing
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RE: Shocks for Roadtrek 170
I think I would start with a good wheel alignment, which should help stability and tracking quite a bit. If it is porpoising, then shocks are a definite need. For "rocking" the shocks will help, but the best cure is a swaybar in the rear (difficult if you have a genny) and/or airbags in the rear and bigger springs in the front.
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booster
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02/04/12 02:26pm |
Class B - Camping Van Conversions
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RE: How does the snow,ice, salt affect the Class B chasis?
There are lots of things under our Roadtrek that I wouldn't want to see salt. Wiring connections , pump, and such. We intend to keep it out of any salt. We live in Minnesota, so we need to schedule well if we want to go anywhere south in the winter.
Rustproofing certainly would help. There are thinner, flexible, coatings for most things, but they need to be applied fairly often. The Canadian folks may know more, as I think they use that style. The heavier coatings would certainly gum up some things and make it hard to work on.
I think most RVs would have trouble with a regular diet of salty roads, protected, or not.
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booster
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02/03/12 03:07pm |
Class B - Camping Van Conversions
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RE: Crown Battery raises recommended absorption Voltage
you sure lost me on this answer. You talk about the importance of controlling voltage in the care of batteries all the time. The deal is that you CAN control the voltage your coach batteries (and you could have the starting battery in the circuit also, if you chose to).
First is the error: it seems that the allegation is that I talk about the importance of controlling voltage. Where did this come from? It doesn't represent my views.
The voltage in lead acid batteries, as it is in all batteries, is controlled by the chemical reactions involved.
When you use a battery charger or battery maintenance system, you set its voltage in order to control the current into the battery so as to re-establish a fully charged chemical equilibrium. You also need to keep in mind devices other than the battery in the circuit so as to avoid any damage to them.
The thread title, especially when compared to the various charging voltage recommendations mentioned in this thread, says a lot about the leeway involved in battery charging. That, in turn, has implications regarding potential battery damage and also provides hints about what charging a battery does besides just put electrical charge back in the battery.
The discussion also gets into human factors (other than defensiveness) in that the phenomena does not appear to be as cut and dried (or deterministic) as many folks seem to want it to be.
Bryan, I am not going to do it, but I could go to at least a half dozen posts where you claim that the life of batteries is not determined by the quality or type of battery, but how you use it, and how you charge it. You consistently tout the use of mulitstep chargers. Those chargers work on stepped voltage, not current, and are usually set to the type of battery to get the voltage profile. If voltage didn't matter, and the continuous alternator voltage isn't bad, why would you spend the money for a better charger? You seem to be constantly changing your position to support your latest claim.
Are you really saying that putting 14.1 volts on a lead acid wet cell for 50-100 hours, on a moderate trip, will not shorten the life compared to having it on a multistep charger for that time?
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booster
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02/01/12 07:44pm |
Tech Issues
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RE: looking for a class b
We haven't been to the Minneapolis RV show for a couple of years, but when we did go, Lake Region and Imperial Camper Sales were the only ones with B's, and Imperial is now out of it (Roadtrek went to Lake Region). Unfortunately, many of the B's that Lake Region had there had been sold, and were then locked up so you couldn't get inside. Unless the Pleasure-way dealer is coming down from Duluth, you probably would see more B's at the Lake Region dealership.
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booster
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01/31/12 07:41pm |
Class B - Camping Van Conversions
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RE: looking for a class b
There are no quick and easy answers. You will need to do the footwork to decide which unit fits your needs. Look at Roadtrek, Pleasureway, Leisure Travel, and Great West Vans as the big 4. Also the Sportsmobile site has lots of information.
Picking a dealer is the next big question mark. Since you are in Minnesota, I can highly recommend Lake Region RVs northwest of MSP. They have a website and carry a number of brands. I have purchased two vehicles from them over the years. They won't BS you... The owner, Dale, has a fan club here. :B
I totally agree. Everyone's needs and desires are different. We chose a Roadtrek C190P based on the storage advantage over the others, and the drivability of the Chevy. Others opt for more seats or openness, and maybe a diesel.
The recommendation of Lake Region RVs is spot on. We didn't get our 07 from them, because they weren't a Roadtrek dealer then, but we wished they were. When we looked at the other brands at Lake Regions, they were very helpful. They also have a pretty good stock of everything B, except Pleasure-way, which they had to stop selling to get Roadtrek. I do think there is a Pleasure-way dealer in Duluth.
We are in the Andover, Mn area, so if you would like to see ours, or ask questions, just let us know.
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booster
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01/31/12 10:24am |
Class B - Camping Van Conversions
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RE: Crown Battery raises recommended absorption Voltage
As to the question of why the vehicles run that high of a voltage, it is pretty obvious it is because they need to.
Jim,
This is not the case with some, or all, late model alternators. For instance, the voltage level of the alternator my Ford motorhome tapers down as the engine battery and the motorhome batteries (attached to the engine battery in direct - no diode drop - parallel) charge up and as the ambient air temperature warms up.
I know, because I have a voltmeter mounted in the cab on the dash that I watch when driving. In fact in extreme outside temperature heat and after many driving hours, so that all batteries were fully charged by the alternator, I've seen it's voltage output drop down at highway speeds to as low as 12.9 volts. Of course in cold weather when first starting the engine, the alternator output always starts out as 14.XX volts.
Perhaps some late model alternators are even controlled via the main vehicle computer and it's sensors - instead of simple electronic components contained within the alternator's case - not sure on this though. For my alternator, it's output voltage seems to be controlled in a fairly sophisticated manner. I assume other late model vehicles have similar control over their alternators.
I find that very interesting voltage! I have never seen any vehicle taper that far. Back in the day of mechanical regulators, most of what I saw would go to about 13.8 or so, as did the early regulator in the alternator ones. Comparing to our other 4 vehicles, this is what we get for hot voltage, full battery.
92 Escort 14.2/14.3
97 Tracer 14.1/14.2
09 CRV 14.0
70 Dodge Challenger with mid 80's GM alternator 13.8
12.9 isn't really even enough to hold the batteries full. Have you checked the voltage at the battery in the RV? Anybody else ever see that low?
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booster
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01/29/12 01:53pm |
Tech Issues
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RE: Crown Battery raises recommended absorption Voltage
re: "What has never been answered, although I have asked several times, concerning the charging of RV batteries, is how do folks (especially Bryanl) control the charge voltages and stages the batteries see during long drives with the already fully charged?"
Since I don't control anything, much less voltages, I don't understand the reason for the question. What makes anyone think I control voltages on their charging system?
Your engine batteries are generally no different as far as charging voltages than your house batteries. That, it seems to me, makes the question as to why the charging system uses such a high float about what that does to the engine battery first and foremost.
Boy, you sure lost me on this answer. You talk about the importance of controlling voltage in the care of batteries all the time. The deal is that you CAN control the voltage your coach batteries (and you could have the starting battery in the circuit also, if you chose to). Take a look at the Sterling "battery to battery" chargers, which are nominal 12v to 12 volt mulitstep chargers. But, as I said previously, it is the time spent at the higher than float voltage that is the real issue. 14.1 volts is actually not all that bad if you are charging at a single voltage and then disconnect. Unfortunately, if you don't disconnect, it is hard on batteries.
With all you concerns of taking care of batteries properly, I would have thought you would have put some effort into preventing the early aging caused by long drives at too high a float voltage.
I asked this because I feel something is needed for long drives on full batteries, and I think others probably have the same issue without knowing it. It would be nice if a manufacturer would come up with a converter/charger/inverter that also conditioned the vehicle charge voltage to the batteries. It really shouldn't be all the tough to do, as all the bits needed are already there and only need to be made to work that way. It is good to hear that some RVs let you disconnect the coach batteries from the charging while driving, unfortunately, our Roadtrek isn't one of them, so we had to build our own.
As to the question of why the vehicles run that high of a voltage, it is pretty obvious it is because they need to. They don't have multistep chargers, and they need the batteries to be recovered quickly, so the voltage is needed. The manufacturers know it is hard on the battery on long runs, but being able to start the vehicle every day after short trips takes precedence. For this reason, the starting batteries are designed to better handle the higher voltages than deep cycle batteries, even though Bryan will tell us all batteries are the same.
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booster
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01/29/12 09:37am |
Tech Issues
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RE: Roadtrek 190
Something is not making sense. My first impression was that it was a reasonable price, with the ifs, as I mentioned, but others thought it was high based on recent information they had. Our pricing experience is older, as we bought our 07 C190P in Oct of 08 for $58K new (it was the new style and with most every option). It listed for a bit over $77K. His percent off wasn't as large, but still reasonable, and I based my opinion on amount off of MSRP.
What is not making sense is the retail price of $107K, which is more in the range of a 210, not 190. I couldn't find any 190 listed at over $100K, and most were in the mid $90s or lower. That would surely explain the high selling price issues that have been brought up. If the MSRP is jacked up, a big discount still leaves you too high. If the retail were $95K and you used the old reference (when we bought) of 18% off being a good deal, you would be at about $78K and then would take off the rebate of $2500 and be closer to $75K.
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booster
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01/28/12 10:26pm |
Class B - Camping Van Conversions
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RE: Roadtrek 190
With a retail of $107K, he must have gotten a Popular or Versatile. The cheaper one shown in the link is a Simplicity that would list for somewhere in the low $80s. I think that it was quite a good price, unless the #5K, $2500, and trade are in addition to the $83700.
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booster
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01/28/12 02:22pm |
Class B - Camping Van Conversions
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RE: Crown Battery raises recommended absorption Voltage
On a recent 10 day trip, where we had shore power every night, our batteries in the Roadtrek saw 14.1 volts (Chevy van), while full, for over 50 hours of driving.
Was this 14.1 measured by a dash gauge, a scan gauge, or some other method?
I wouldn't trust the dash gauge voltmeters, or temp gauges, as they dumbed them down so as to not freak out people with the wild swings possible that can come with true accuracy.
My '89 dodge will drop the voltage to the 13.6/7 range at highway speeds when they are fully charged. I see the amps into and out of the batteries hovers in the +0.3 to -0.3 in these conditions.
But good point, and a welcome semi diversion of the original topic
The voltage readings were from the dash gauge, an accessory plug voltmeter, and confirmed by my Fluke DVM. I was very surprised to see the voltage that high, and GM says that is normal for the Express. We need to add water to our twin gp27 Trojans after about 2500 miles, as they will be half way to the plates, or a bit more, and according to Trojan the batteries gas at 14.1 volts, so it makes sense. If it is VERY hot out, the voltage might go down to 13.9/14.0.
I have built a switch controlled override, so I can disconnect the separator on long drives, once the batteries are full, but you have to remember to use it, and try to know how long to leave the batteries on it before disconnecting. It is still a lot better than nothing. We still need to go on a long summer drive to see how the water use is affected.
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booster
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01/28/12 12:51pm |
Tech Issues
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RE: Crown Battery raises recommended absorption Voltage
We have also seen some of the charge voltages going up on the newer forklift chargers we have at work. Also lots of sales guys pushing multi step chargers with pulse desulphate, automatic equalization selections, etc. When I asked the battery guys about the voltage thing, they had a very interesting theory, that kind of makes sense. They said too many (stupid) folks were blowing up things with the equalization voltages (used to be 16v now most at 15.5), so the battery manufacturers are calling out higher charge voltages to get some of the benefits of equalization, with less risk, and with built in limits in the charger. Interesting, but unconfirmed.
There are perpetual arguments about battery quality, design, etc, with some very interesting "theories" like a 3X difference in plate thickness is "insignificant". One thing that is constantly brought out is that the care and feeding of batteries is very much a predictor of life, and I totally agree.
What has never been answered, although I have asked several times, concerning the charging of RV batteries, is how do folks (especially Bryanl) control the charge voltages and stages the batteries see during long drives with the already fully charged? On a recent 10 day trip, where we had shore power every night, our batteries in the Roadtrek saw 14.1 volts (Chevy van), while full, for over 50 hours of driving. By almost all measures, this is considerably too high, and into the gassing area for wet cells. Having the best convertor or charger in the world doesn't do all that much good, if you abuse them while traveling, and it makes it necessary to water them often. Anybody addressed this issue.
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booster
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01/27/12 07:24pm |
Tech Issues
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RE: Used 2011 Pleasure Way Traverse at PPL
Looking at the pictures it is impressive. I however, would be looking close at the sleeping arrangements. I have a GW with a queen bed in the rear and find it somewhat difficult in the middle of the night if one has to use the bathroom Always having to crawl over the other person. maybe only important to me.
On many of the "B" with rear sleeping, you can make the bed as a normal queen, as twins, or as we do, a combination of the two. We have the rear (head end) full width, but leave out the section that fills the middle of the bed at our feet, which is also the aisle. It really reduces the wiggling down to the end of the bed to get up. You only have to climb over the other occupant on side to side sleepers, like the Roadtrek 170.
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booster
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01/13/12 04:17pm |
Class B - Camping Van Conversions
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RE: Batteries?
If you plan to get 3-4 days of boondocking, unless you have an awful lot of battery capacity, you should go for good deep cycle batteries. As has been mentioned, the 6v golf cart style seem to do the best for most folks, with Trojan being the most popular. You should probably take a good look at how much power you use in a day, and compare to you capacity to see how deep you would have take the batteries down to get the boondocking time you want to have. Although battery life is better and lower drawdowns, like 50%, good, true deep cycle, batteries will survive many, many trips down to 80% DOD. Starting and deep cycle starting batteries will not do nearly as well.
IMO, just ignore the "myth" theories that Bryan puts out there, as he has never given any data to back them up on any of threads he has been on. He is correct on the recommendation to have the best charging system you can find, but don't think that just because a battery has longer warranty, it is a better battery. You can make and replace a cheap battery less expensively than making it good in the first place, and the best quality batteries are the ones that go into tough conditions, like golf carts, where even the best batteries are one year warranty. And as daveshan states, many of the warranties aren't what the appear.
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booster
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01/03/12 02:25pm |
Beginning RVing
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