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RE: We need a forum Focus Group to Design the perfect RV
Amen, but I'd settle for reliable quality being scalable with price. Right now it doesn't - our chances of getting a high-priced lemon 5th wheel aren't much less than with a mid-level or entry-level 5'vr. Paying 50% more does not cut the chance of getting a lemon by 33%, or even by 20%.
It's an interesting idea but, like Tom Holsinger said, RVers are too diversified to accept a 'one size fits all' RV.
Personally I think the RV manufacturers should concentrate on QUALITY.
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Tom Holsinger
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01/23/12 05:44pm |
Fifth-Wheels
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RE: We need a forum Focus Group to Design the perfect RV
The market is too segmented to allow a single ideal 5th wheel. Part-timers and full-timers need laundry facilities plus enormous focus on odor control and ventilation. Vacation users don't need those. Families with children need a half-bath.
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Tom Holsinger
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01/22/12 12:25pm |
Fifth-Wheels
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RE: 5th wheel shopping today
15 months ago a salesman for the Montana dealer 5 miles from my house offered me any new Montana on their lot for $44,000 - $48,000, depending on the model, and all had what were then both option packages plus a few options (none included the 2nd air conditioner - that cost another $1,000). Taxes and license were not included.
I also have RV dealers 2.5 miles away, 40 miles away, 45 miles away and several more 60 miles away, which keeps prices around here pretty low. The Montana and Carriage dealers both had, and have, AAA ratings from the Better Business Bureau. The ones 2.5 miles away and 40 miles away had F ratings which have recently improved to D.
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Tom Holsinger
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01/09/12 08:00pm |
Fifth-Wheels
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RE: Ordering a Fifthwheel trailer from a dealer
There might be significant differences between what you order and what is delivered. My recollection is that RV manufacturers almost always have clauses in their contracts allowing them to make subsitutions without notice. This generally involves furniture, sinks, etc., but it can get pretty outrageous.
Plus, as MWWeber noted, two different units of the same model 5th wheel manufactured by diffferent teams can vary enormously in quality. He said of two otherwise identical Montanas on the same dealer's lot that one looked fine and the other like it had been assembled by chimpanzees.
You really should have a unilateral rescission clause in any contract to buy an RV that you haven't inspected personally, that says you can walk away from the deal without having a reason. Negotiate for the amount of deposit you'll lose.
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Tom Holsinger
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01/08/12 12:19pm |
Fifth-Wheels
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RE: Time for a new one; suggestions?
quasi,
Dealers are important for warranty work. Check the Better Business Bureau rating of whoever you might buy from if they are close enough to use for warranty work. If it is C or worse, consider buying a different line from a different dealer.
If you are considering a mid-range manufacturer, look at Jayco Pinnacles. Jayco is a well-regarded and widely available manufacturer, and Pinnacles are its high-end line. Heartland is also a good manufacturer, but not as widely available. Both have active owners' forums, and those are important resources.
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Tom Holsinger
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01/04/12 08:53pm |
Fifth-Wheels
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RE: Time for a new one; suggestions?
The top companies with Carriage gone seem to be Excel, New Horizons, Newmar and Nuwa. I might have left some out.
One issue you should consider is frame construction. A number of companies and models, including the vacation market Crossroads Cruiser, have cage-type side frames which make their units especially sturdy against unavoidable road flexing of the whole unit. Carriage was notable for having not merely that, but putting all of its slides above the bottom frame rather than cutting the slides into the bottom frame. I don't know if any of the four top quality 5th wheel manufacturers offer that.
If you can afford $80,000 or so, I'd get the sturdiest-framed model from one of those four manufacturers.
Do be aware, however, that increasing price does not result in a corresponding decrease in the chances of getting a lemon with towable RV's (5th wheels, toy haulers & travel trailers). More money produces corresponding comfort and convenience, but not more reliability. You take your chances with any 5th wheel. More money produces more reliability only when you go above about $200,000 - $250,000 with motorized RV's (Class A, B & C). That is simply not the case with towable RV's. I don't know of any 5th wheels which cost more than $150,000, let alone more than $250,000.
This is a reason why the comfortable-enough Keystone Montana line (@ $44,000 - $48,000) is so popular. A lot of buyers who could afford more expensive 5th wheels settle for Montanas because they don't want to take the risk of buying a $75,000 lemon. But they are willing to take only a slighter greater risk of a lemon with a Montana which costs only 60% as much.
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Tom Holsinger
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01/04/12 05:29pm |
Fifth-Wheels
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RE: Carriage RV's
This is the website for the Carriage owners' forum:
http://carriageowners.net/forum/index.php
It has lots of information on Carriage and how owners of its 5th wheels are coping with being orphaned.
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Tom Holsinger
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12/30/11 10:09pm |
Fifth-Wheels
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RE: Beware of Dutchman RVs
Fixed that for you:
The same manufacturer can build two of the same model unit but
one unit can be junk, while the other results in a completely satisfied customer.
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Tom Holsinger
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12/04/11 04:47pm |
Fifth-Wheels
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RE: Beware of Dutchman RVs
rvblog4me,
Bear in mind that the major problem with RV's in general (more so for towables) is that overall industrry quality control pretty much sucks for reasons described by Bakersfield. While most Dutchmen towable lines are entry-level, the problems you mention can and do happen even at the high-end. Paying more for towables does not reduce the chances of getting a lemon in proportion with pice. Paying more mostly means you'll get the same chance of a lemon which would be far more comfortable if it wasn't a lemon.
I recall MWWEbber telling us that, of two of the same model of Keystone Montana he inspected side by side, one looked great and the other like it had been built by chimpanzees. This is regretably normal.
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Tom Holsinger
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12/03/11 12:36pm |
Fifth-Wheels
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RE: Carriage.....Gone..Bankrupt
A salesman at what had been my local Carriage dealer, Toscano RV of Los Banos, California, told me that ALL of their Carriage Royale sales in the past ten years had been for park use (i.e., immobile). All their Carriage customers who actually moved around with their RV's bought other Carriage lines.
Toscano RV still has some Carriage 5th wheels, including some of its "new" Cabo line. I did a side by side comparison of a Cabo to a KZ Stoneridge several months ago, and they didn't seem much different in quality. The Carriage Cabo, though, had an aluminum cage construction with the same frame as a Carriage Cameo, and differed only in having the slides cut into the frame instead of appearing above the frame as in Cameos, Carri-Lites and Royales.
I like the idea of an aluminum cage with a really sturdy frame, but the only ones available in my area are either Crossroads Cruisers (whose local dealer had an "F" rating with the Better Business Bureau which has improved to a "D-") or no-longer-warrantied Carriages. Crossroads Cruisers are good vacation RV's.
I was just about to get my first RV,and would probably have gotten a Cabo, but had to postpone buying for family reasons. I still intend to get a part-timing model in a few years when I retire too, but would not like to pay for a high-end line. Hopefully some dealer with a better BBB rating will offer Crossroads Rushmores by then. The KZ Stoneridge looks OK but the KZ owners forum is dead. The Crossroads forum is doing fine. My only problem with a Keystone Montana is that I'd like to get something which sturdier as I expect highways will become a lot worse in the next few years due to lack of maintenance.
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Tom Holsinger
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11/30/11 06:12pm |
Fifth-Wheels
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RE: We still plan on buying a Cameo how about you?
I hope Carriage finds a buyer who will keep its quality up. There isn't much time until the most experienced in its work force find other jobs, at which point it will be almost a startup in terms of quality.
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Tom Holsinger
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11/04/11 04:51pm |
Fifth-Wheels
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RE: 2004 Crossroads quality vs. today
snowman,
I signed up for the Carriage forum months ago and still haven't been approved.
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Tom Holsinger
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10/26/11 10:50am |
Fifth-Wheels
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RE: 2004 Crossroads quality vs. today
Crossroads recently shifted from bolts and nuts to semi-automated welding for its cage frames. That is the only policy change I know of. Build quality hasn't changed much, AFAIK - the problem is still labor force turnover, and is true for the entire industry. You take your chances with any RV.
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Tom Holsinger
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10/21/11 08:11am |
Fifth-Wheels
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RE: Carraige Closed Down
Carriage has such an exceptionally good customer reputation that it is highly likely Forest River would buy it given the chance. It would be a shame for an RV company with that reputation to simply go out of business.
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Tom Holsinger
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10/19/11 10:32am |
Fifth-Wheels
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RE: crossroads 32ck cruiser
Crossroads Cruisers are probably the best insulated and most durable of vaction market 5th wheels. If you can afford it, I'd go with an Artic Fox (Northwood Manufacturing) for full-timing in your winters.
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Tom Holsinger
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10/09/11 10:19am |
Fifth-Wheels
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RE: What to buy?
A 3/4 won't work with those choices. There are plenty of good 1-ton diesels. If there is any chance you'll be RV'ing long enough to replace the 5'vr you plan to buy right now, get a dually now so you won't have to upgrade your truck to get a slightly bigger 5'vr in 4-5 years.
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Tom Holsinger
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10/02/11 10:02pm |
Fifth-Wheels
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RE: CrossRoads Cruiser Versus Primetime Crusader???
It depends on whether you want washer/drier prep. (not available on Crossroads Cruisers but it is on one Crusader model), and how much travel you want to put on it. The more milage you intend to put on your RV, the greater the Cruiser's advantage is. The cage frame of Crossroads 5th wheels makes them sturdier than almost all of their competitors, and so less likely to slowly rattle apart and develop defects.
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Tom Holsinger
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09/30/11 09:55pm |
Fifth-Wheels
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RE: Manufactuers Suggested Retail Price
I agree. $45,000 - $48,000 for a new Montana 3100 with a fireplace, dual pane windows, generator prep. and a second air conditioner. I was offered one like that last year for $45,000. Admittedly this is in an area with what seem to be low prices due to intense price competition between dealers.
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Tom Holsinger
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09/26/11 08:56pm |
Fifth-Wheels
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RE: Redwood Ratings!
I'm glad to see Northwood Manufacturing's Arctic Fox rated so well, because it is not a high-end 5vr. It's a cold-weather design which trades off amenities and size for lack of drafts, ventilaton and insulation, and framing strength to minimize future drafts arising from road vibration.
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Tom Holsinger
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09/25/11 11:07am |
Fifth-Wheels
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RE: Who sells the most?
Rich, I tried Google and my search terms didn't turn up anything useful. I suspect the data is on some RV industry association site but am unfamiliar with the names of the RV industry associations which compile the information.
I don't need a link to the data site, but definitely need help finding the general web sites where the data can be found. I was specific about models because I don't care how many RV's total a company sells, or even how many total 5th wheels it sells, though possibly a site which lists the latter by manufacturer might also break those down by model.
Could someone please post a link to a site which lists how many 5th wheel RV's of a given model were sold in 2010? By model I mean things like Keystone Montana, Forest River Wildcat, Jayco Eagle, KZ Stoneridge, etc.
It is best to do that homework and research on your own so you will know it is accurate. You may share it if you wish.
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Tom Holsinger
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09/23/11 04:05pm |
Fifth-Wheels
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