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RE: Whats Your Real Weights? Truck and Trailer. The Real Deal
Just found out mine, trying to find where the weight is.....
TV 2007 Chevy CC D/A 4wd Dually with hitch, full of fuel, toolbox, 2 adults, 2 children, and dog. 8240lbs
5th Wheel -2007 KZ Sportsmen Sportster 37KGX3 - sticker weight dry 11,556. Sticker GVWR is 16,940. Actual scaled weight with all our clothes, food, etc and a golf cart, DRY!, 19,120. Sticker hitch weight 2940, actual 3520. I don't see a problem here. Looks normal. However the total weight on the axles is 15,600... that's 1,600 over the axle rating and 600 over the tire rating. I am at a loss. I hope it is scale error. I will be reweighing this weekend.
Total GCWR 27,220!!! Truck rated at 23,500. I have no idea where the weight is. I can only hope that the scale was wrong. We did not load 7500 lbs of gear in here. Not to mention the fact that all tanks were empty and I have a 110 gallon fresh tank.....
Not sure who Phalynx is but hoping the scales are wrong is not a good position to be in. There should be some state or county certification sticker / certificate available as truckers can be fined if they are found overweight so they have to have reliable scales.
Unless he weighed the trailer when new and empty there is no way to be certain of it's empty weight.
This is not a good situation.
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Tireman9
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05/24/12 07:27pm |
Fifth-Wheels
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RE: New to 5th wheel
I see lots of comments on GVWR but that is for just the truck. The truck placard and owners manual provide clear info on GCWR which is the combined total of truck and anything you are towing.
One big item is stopping distance.
Warning, get in any accident and a smart lawyer will hang you out to dry if you are exceeding the max rating as this increases the stopping distance. Increased stiopping distance means you increased the damage done to the other guy or thing you hit. Just hope the lawyer is stupid.
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Tireman9
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04/29/12 07:24pm |
Fifth-Wheels
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RE: new rims question
O-k so I got some new wheels for my truck...went from the stock 6-1/2 wide wheel to 8 in width...there shouldn't be no difference in the truck height...my tires are 265/r75 16's.
First I assume you meant LT265/75R16 size tires.
There is a P265/75R16 but that would be a 35 psi tire and have it's load de-rated by dividing by 1.1 and I do not find a European metric 265/75R16C listed in Industry Standards book.
Second I do not find a 6-1/2 rim width as an approved size for a LT265/75R16 size tire, so have to wonder who applied this tire on an un-approved rim width.
Third You also failed to mention the Load range so statements on load capacity or inflation levels are all guesses.
LT265/75R16 size comes in LR-C 50 psi, LR-D 65 psi & LR-E 80 psi
Info on wheels HERE.
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Tireman9
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04/29/12 07:15pm |
Tow Vehicles
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RE: What tire pressure would you run ?
Warning tire police in the room
I have a 26' TT with a dry curb weight of about 4,000 lbs. Bought it used about a 18 months ago and never bothered to check the tire pressure, since the dealer had just prep'd it. We towed it about 3,500 miles last summer with no problems. I checked the tire pressure today and all four were at 32 psi. Checked the owners manual and it said "refer to tire sidewall". The sticker on the trailer is BLANK. The sidewall on the Nanco tires says "max load 1750 lbs at 50 psi". I upped the pressure from 32 psi to 36 psi. I'm thinking that 40 psi might be better. It's only about 45 degrees outside, so pressure might increase slightly as the tires warm. Since nobody ever rides in the TT, should I even be concerned about how smooth it rides ?
Here is info on what is supposed to be on your placard
Depending on year at least one of the labels is supposed to have inflation pressure stated. If not they you should file a complaint with NHTSA and include your RV VIN.
Incorrect information on placards has resulted in recalls with dealers having to apply new correct placards.
Minimum inflation info here
Here are some examples of the "chalk test"
You might find working your way through all 50 or so posts on my blog will answer a lot of your questions. You can start here.
You may find it best just to subscribe then you don't have to keep looking for new posts. You will only get a notice when new posts are made.
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Tireman9
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04/29/12 07:00pm |
Travel Trailers
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RE: Revived Trailer Tire Thread (formerly on the 5th Wheel Forum
CapriRacer,
I did make it to measuring my wheel loads today. The data is more eye opening then I had expected. I have 300# total error in the data that I want to find before I post the data. This could be accumulative error of 50# from each wheel location.
snip
I have seen enough to convince myself I need more reserve capacity.
Thanks
John
SLR is not a great tool for finding load as tire stiffness varies around a tire probably in the 20# to 100# per inch or more. There is also a time factor "creep" thet will enter into your measurements.
I would think that if you can get +/- 50# readings that would be OK as we are more concerned with loads in the multiple hundreds of pounds.
Your bushings will also cause some variation.
Looking forward to seeing your final values even if +/- 50 #
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Tireman9
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04/29/12 09:46am |
Tech Issues
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RE: Revived Trailer Tire Thread (formerly on the 5th Wheel Forum
BeachRat, when you say they denied your claim: Was it the tire dealer that did that? Was there damage to the vehicle that was part of the claim?
OE (Mission) all had belt separation, goose eggs at 13k/ 2 1/2 years.. OE paid for new tires.. only thing that I could find, Goodyear & Maxxis were nationally backordered, was a set of Titans trade named Dico. The Dicos ran great for two seasons. February, on the way to Key West I had my first ever blow out.. lost the RF tire 150 miles out. Lose an hour and a half buying a new tire.. In campground at Key West (1200 miles from home) I notice the LF tire had a big bulge in the tread.. buy second tire (bias belted, the only ST225/75-15 that I could find in Key West) Drive home.. Haul the Key West goose egg home, call 800# and on their instruction return to dealer.
Pull whells to repack bearings.. last two Dicos now have tread bulges (15k on them) so they go to dealer (he is thrilled to seem, so much so that I mail ordered replacement tires)
Manufacture date is over three years from claim (but not retail purchase) so they denied the claim.
No damage to trailer.
Off again, check back in in a week or so.
Sounld like you have a good case to file a complaint on each tire failure with NHTSA. Just be sure to provide tire DOT and RV VIN and as much info as I previously suggested in my earlier post. NHTSA will not replace your tires or pay for damage but if sufficiently documented they may light a fire under the tire importer. Keep your documentation and lots of good well lit pictures of the tires. If you can keep the tires too that would be good unless the tire co wants to stand behind their product and replace them.
Visit my Blog. Send me some email with pictures.
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Tireman9
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04/29/12 09:39am |
Tech Issues
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RE: Revived Trailer Tire Thread (formerly on the 5th Wheel Forum
While in my capacity as a tire inspection specialist I didn't have to bill anyone, so I cannot relate to the $2k cost. I just did the inspections and tests needed to get to the root cause of a tire's condition. While some times it took many man-hours of inspection and investigation and I needed chemical lab analysis or the assistance with the Electron Microscope, usually I was able to find the root cause with basic visual and microscopic examination. My job was to do whatever necessary so I have never been in a position to charge for a full lab forensic analysis.
Closest I ever came was when I was retained (outside my regular job) to investigate and duplicate conditions that involved a fatal accident. Obviously since that involved buying a car and moved on from there, that investigation went far beyond just $2k.
But, I note that John B. lives here in Ohio, and is only a couple of hours away. While I cannot offer any Shearography or chemical lab analysis, I can offer what I consider a normal cut tire autopsy with a report similar in detail to what I have provided to various OEMs for just my out of pocket costs. (est $100 - $150 for consumables such as special saw & blades) PM me if you are interested
I would also post the results on this thread if John approved as since he would be paying, the resulting report would be his property.
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Tireman9
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04/28/12 02:03pm |
Tech Issues
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RE: Whats Your Real Weights? Truck and Trailer. The Real Deal
Why are there so few posts with the real tire by tire loading? I know it takes a bit more effort but how do you know your fully loaded axle split is 50/50 not 45/55?
Also how do you know your side to side split on each axle is 50/50 and not 35/65 as I have seen in some extreem cases?
Just wondering..
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Tireman9
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04/23/12 07:10am |
Fifth-Wheels
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RE: Revived Trailer Tire Thread (formerly on the 5th Wheel Forum
John
In general my opinions on what is seen in the pictures matches Barry's. I am sure that Barry and I would have a great time trying to agree 100% of the time even if we had the tires in our hands.
My definition would be that a crack initiates within the tire rubber and there are no signs of initiation from an external object. A cut is started by some external cause. Either way if the cut or crack grown such that you can see or feel the belts with a flat blade screwdriver it is deep enough to cause other problems.
The tread design is not in my opinion what I would consider desirable for trailer application. I see little reason for all the traction lugs in the shoulder rib. If I were shopping for new trailer tires I would try and find something with more continuous shoulder ribs.
I know these are not your size but they show what I am talking about.
Trailer tire
Drive (traction) design
Trailer tireTrailer tire
On THIS page click position to see the difference
A reader suggested THIS tire line
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Tireman9
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04/23/12 07:06am |
Tech Issues
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RE: Revived Trailer Tire Thread (formerly on the 5th Wheel Forum
Here are a couple of shots of what was actually a small puncture. You can see the rust in this view.
http://i42.tinypic.com/p8wp1.jpg height=368 width=276
And here you can see that the tire had lost its tread but the slow leak is obvious.
http://i42.tinypic.com/mweedv.jpg height=368 width=276
RE Possible cut to steel. A close look at each of the "cuts" will confirm or refute the idea that the cut is to the steel and the steel has started to rust locally. If you find any individual steel filaments that are not brass color then there has been some corrosion present. I am basing my idea on the white dot in the cut. I htink this is the end of a filament but I could be wrong as all I have to go on is the picture. I do note the discoloration around the "cut" which I have seen before in confirmed cases where the damage went to the steel and further examination found corrosion.
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Tireman9
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04/22/12 12:27pm |
Tech Issues
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RE: Revived Trailer Tire Thread (formerly on the 5th Wheel Forum
John
I think I would change them all.We had one on a 2011 trailer that the tread started to swell.I found it when I pulled into a camp ground.we were not that far from home on that trip so put the spare on before we headed home.When I took it off the rim and looked a it the inside lining had a wrinkle in it like the whole tire had swelled and had stretched the inter liner.I had always replaced the China may pops when I bought a trailer until this one and the wife was on my case about putting new tires on less than a year old trailer and I thought maybe I am making to much out of it.But this proved me wrong.Tires were built in Aug 2010
There is a RV trailer here at Daytona now sitting on the side of I 95 with the fender well riped up so bad that I think the guy took his stuff out of it and just left it there.
Your tire that had a "wrinkle" on the inside and started to "swell" on the outside is a perfect candidate for filing a complaint with NHTSA. I have previously posted a list of the info NHTSA is looking for and if you add the "swell" and the "wrinkle" pictures it would be hard for them to ignore once there were a couple of other complaints from the same tire plant that also involve what we think is a structural detachment.
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Tireman9
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04/22/12 12:12pm |
Tech Issues
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RE: Revived Trailer Tire Thread (formerly on the 5th Wheel Forum
A question for our experts:
There have been numerous failures from day one with the ground-up LT235/85R16G tires designed for trailer service. They are almost exclusively used on 7000# axles and should have the load capacity to live out their expected life expectancy but are falling short of it. The leading manufacturer has made at least one major attempt at resolving the problem with limited success.
What do you guys think about that steel cased tire? I’ve wondered about it’s regrooveability feature. Even though it has shallow threads it still has the extra tread depth to allow regrooving. Is that presenting a heat problem when the tire is near it’s operational limits? Do you think regrooving them early would help in extending their life expectancy?
FastEagle
I covered Retread and Regroove in my blog.
The heat comes from the area at the edge of the steel belts so cutting parts of the tread will not reduce the amount of rubber between the tread surface and the belts. Also regroving will leave microscopic cuts in the base of the cuts which could lead to accelerated cut growth.
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Tireman9
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04/21/12 11:07pm |
Tech Issues
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RE: Revived Trailer Tire Thread (formerly on the 5th Wheel Forum
JBarca
Excellent job of providing the data needed to make an informed suggetion with all the measurement data and pictures. You didn't identify if it was the one with the tread cuts or not. I am a bit surprised to see all the tires growing such round treads given they are radials. If you look at the passenger or LT type tires on other vehicles you will probably not see such rounding.
The Big OC tire would be on my replace now list.
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Tireman9
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04/21/12 10:57pm |
Tech Issues
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RE: Revived Trailer Tire Thread (formerly on the 5th Wheel Forum
I had asked about tire cracks before and did not get a definitive answer on what is tolerable and what is not. Today when I had all 4 tires off and I looked real good at them.
Here is one from the right side. This is not the problem bulging tire in the reply above. I am starting to get fine side wall cracks and a few splits in the tread.
Here is the DOT date
snisnip 2108
Some of the side wall cracks. They are real fine at this point but at the 4 year mark they are showing up.
The cracks seem to still be small
snip
close up
http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b378/JBarca/T310SR%20Camper%20Upgrades/Tires%20Check%20-%20New%20Tires/treadcrack2close.jpg
These tread "cracks" look to me more like cuts with some of the steel belts being exposed to water and rust.
When does one start getting concerned about these and start a change out? I was hoping for 5 years but don't know any more.
Any thoughts on when to start the change out process?
Thanks
John
Removed some of the pictures to save post space. The tread cuts would be the biggest concern so far as I believe the steel is starting to rust. I can see small areas of deposit around the cuts and what looks like a broken steel filament. This will just get bigger and you need to keep an eye on the tread area for any signs of distortion or non uniform curvature.
Tou might consider replaceing the two worst tires this year and the other two next year to spread the cost.
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Tireman9
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04/21/12 10:47pm |
Tech Issues
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RE: air pressure in tires
Is there a version of PSI for dummies that someone like my can more easily understand… :B
I do know that the pressure and volume are the driving force for tire loading capacities and it seems that the sidewall stiffness will support very little weight on its own…
I believe that all changes in the sidewall stiffness are a direct result of the pressure in the vessel (tire) and not a product of the tires construction no matter the type… this would effect lateral loads much more than anything else…
Wouldn’t measuring the static load radius SLR help to determine if you are achieving proper sidewall deflection with-in reason for the tire…
In easy to follow layman’s terms if you could, just for people like me with no particular expertise or education but trying to understand the issues we face…
Have to admit I don't know why people want the formula when the tables cover the range of inflations you would normally use for normal highway usage. While I believe it is possible to come up with spreadsheets or graphs that give similar results but the testing used by tire companies is all based on the published load and inflation tables. measuring SLR with sufficient accuracy would be very difficult if you are trying to develop your own load inflation chart.
You also need to know that there is not a single formula. The one for Passenger tires is different than LT which is different than ST which is different then TBR. Then the Passenger formula for passenger tires that are 50 aspect ratio is differnt than the one if the tire is 75 series. The above is not a complete list.
The only time I ever used a formula was when developing a new size tha was not yet in the published tables so I didn't have to do it very often.
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Tireman9
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04/21/12 10:34pm |
Travel Trailers
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RE: air pressure in tires
General comment of inflation for trailer applications. In a multi axle configuration the side loading is significantly greater and different than seen in motorized vehicles. Running the highest inflation for the tire will result is a lower side load due to increased cornering force generation.
Keystone has a great video showing the sidw deflection of tandem axle application and you can see the results of this side force.
Watch the first couple of minutes on the Lug Nut video.
You all have a tire placard that gives the recomended inflation for your tires. I see no reason to run any less than the placard in a trailer application and there are times to increase tire Load Rating and the inflation as long as you do not exceed the wheel or valve rating.
Remember rubber "snap-in" valves are rated for 65 psi max.
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Tireman9
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04/20/12 11:47am |
Travel Trailers
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RE: air pressure in tires
Especially in America the calculation of tire-pressure for lower then the maximum load is done wrong. Leads to more deflection of the sidewall then the tire is calculated for.
I once got hold of the European formula and worked it out in spreadsheets. Even this European formula gives a bit to low pressures for the load for C-load tires and up.
If you give me from the tires the maximum load and referencepressure , as it is called in the formula I will calculate a save pressure for you
. Put on the sidewall like this "maximum load( single or dual) xxxx lbs AT yyy psi( cold) "
From the RV the Gross Axle weight ratings ( GAWR) front and behind.
Or better if you did weigh loaded the real weights.
The list often given in America are also made with the wrong formula,you can recocnise it by the different Loadkinds they mix in the list, wich is also wrong. A stiffer tire for instance F-load needs a higher pressure for the same load then a D-load tire. So for Every loadletter a seperate list must be made, They always did that in Europe , but still are not doing that in America.
Mind that tires of the same loadletter and sises are Phisically the same in Europe and America, so need the same pressure for the load.
The 8ply you now have is the same as D load and has mostly a referencepressure of 65 psi, but the AT thing I mentioned is always excact. Especially the front tires dont need that high pressure , because the GAWR front is lower then back, and almost never exceded, wich the back is almost always. But weighing makes it shure.
Interesting concept that Tire & Rim Association, Japanese Automobile Tyre manufacturers Association and the European Tyre and Rim Technical Organization along with dozens of regulatory agencies around the world all got it wrong and you are the only one with the correct information.
I am interested in knowing how many different tires you tested on your defelection machine to establish the "correct" level of deflection that was used to establish your universal formula.
You mention getting ahold of "the European formula" and that the American calculation is wrong. Which formula did you use as your reference for the American formula?
Your statement "A stiffer tire for instance F-load needs a higher pressure for the same load then a D-load tire" seems to imply that you do not believe it is the air that carries the load but the tire construction. If there is a Load Range D that is identical to a Load Range E except for say the bead bundle, how does your formula support the concept that they would not carry the same load and the same inflation?
Really looking forward to seeing your data.
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Tireman9
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04/20/12 11:39am |
Travel Trailers
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RE: Revived Trailer Tire Thread (formerly on the 5th Wheel Forum
snip
So, the bottom line. Is the China Bomb Syndrome Valid? There have been zero recalls for ST tires.
FastEagle
FE has made a key observation "zero recalls", but the reason for no recalls has nothing to do with the quality or possible lack therof of the tires.
As FE and CapriRacer know, if people do not file proper complaints to NHTSA there is no reason or justification for NHTSA to initiate an investigation and with no investigation there will be no recall.
Having reviewed a few of the complaints I could find on the NHTSA site, I saw incorrect or missing tire size, incomplete or missing DOT serial, incorrect or missing tire manufacturer information, and no documented scale loading of the tires.
NHTSA is not going to start an investigation based on an owner relating how upset the co-pilot is or the fact the owners were on their way to grandma's house or were otherwise inconvenineced.
If you review the statements on this thread on the number of tires that have failed you will see the lack of complete statement of facts. A lot of complaining but few facts.
It is well established fact that over half of the trailers that do get weighed have one or more component overloaded. This is the easy and perfect argument from the RV dealer that it is not the tire's fault but the owner that overloaded the unit. Now before you take issue with what I have said please review the facts, review the complaints on the NHTSA web site, review the complaints on this and other threads and see if you can find any that provide:
Complete and correct tire size info
Complete DOT serial
Statement of when and how the individual tire loads were confirmed
Pictures of the failure. In focus close-ups are of great value.
Date of purchase of the RV or of the tire if a replacement
Minimum inflation and frequency of checking
Does the RV have TPMS
Honest statement of the max speed driven
Was the tire ever repaired
Name of dealer that inspected the failed tire
Who has the failed tire and is it available for further examination
Number of miles the tire has been driven.
RV VIN
I have seen recalls started with as few as five well documented complaints. I myself initiated the actions that led to a recall based on an examination of two tires. BUT the key fact is that the information was accurate and well documented.
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Tireman9
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04/20/12 11:17am |
Tech Issues
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RE: Revived Trailer Tire Thread (formerly on the 5th Wheel Forum
RE LT load limits vs ST Load limits.
Ther is no direct simple factor to convert load/inflation tables from ST loads to LT loads. ST tires have higher rating becsuse they have shallower tread depth (cooler running), A lower speed limit 65 vs 75 or higher for LT and ST type are intended for Trailer use only in Highway Service. I know of no state that allows people to travel in trailers while in motion so would interpret this to mean not intended to transport people.
I think this interpretation incorrect, for the following reasons:
1) Many States do in fact allow passenger transportation in travel trailers, fifth wheels, or both.
According to this 2010 towing laws by State article, carrying passengers in travel trailers is allowed in eight States:Arizona, Indiana, Iowa, Kansas, Minnestota, Mississippi, Missouri, and Nebraska. The allowance includes fifth wheel trailers.
Nine other States allow passengers in fifth-wheel type trailers only: Montana, New York, North Dakota, Oregon, Pennsylvania, South Dakota, North Dakota, West Virginia, and Wisconsin.
2)LT vs. ST tire "safety" can't be a factor in safety-related prohibitions, since some States actually prohibit passenger transport in truckcampers, among them the "passengers in trailers O.K." North Dakota.
Prohibitions re. trailer passenger transport in all other States are due to the flimsy construction/flying objects nature of trailers/campers, which aren't designed for the protection of life like ordinary vehicles are. (My personal view is that the same holds true for the "living space" areas of most motorhomes, in which passenger protection ends at the cockpit area.)
3) ST tires are installed only on trailers due to intended-use design differences, one of which is noted above: shallower tread depth for cooler running (and better performance re. rolling resistance). The other critical difference that bars their use on drive vehicles is that they are NOT designed for traction/steering axles. Deeper, more aggressive tread and softer sidewalls are what folks need/want for drive vehicles. Those factors reduce the efficiency of a trailer tire, which only needs to "follow" the tow vehicle.
Thanks for correcting my error. My bad.
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Tireman9
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04/14/12 08:43am |
Tech Issues
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RE: Revived Trailer Tire Thread (formerly on the 5th Wheel Forum
To try to understand so I can answer your question: When you changed to the Load Range E tires - Did you increase the inflation pressure to 80 psi? If not, then you didn't actually change to Load Range E tires. You changed to "Load Range E tires running at Load Range D conditions" - essentailly running a Load Range D tire.
The "Es" run at 80psi.. all truck & trailer tires run the max PSI (80 for "E" or 65 for "D")
Like Winky.. I remember towing a single axle Wilderness up and down the East Coast with 35psi in the OE tires.. from tire age of 3yo to 9yo with no issues.. and now my "jack stand" tires are 1996 "C" Marathons that ran 7 years towing and still hold the trailer while the "good" tires are being serviced.
Tandem axle trailers load tires much more in lateral than single axle trailers. I have limited data that suggests 24% more even with the same scale weight.
The regulations will never change unless there is enough data and hard facts made available to NHTSA so simply complaining to other RV owners will not accomplish much.
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Tireman9
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04/13/12 12:45pm |
Tech Issues
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