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RE: New Andersen WD hitch
The non WD weights were: Front 3200 Rear 4720 Trailer Axles 7000
The WD attached weights with 7 threads showing were: Front 3280 Rear 4680 Triler Axle 7000
The Suburban alone was 6980 and the trailer alone was 7980.
The wheel wells were just a little shorter in the rear than the front (less than an inch from unloaded.
Can I deduce that the tongue weght is 980 lbs and is the 80 extra lbs in front when hitched too much? Any adjustment needed? Any comments welcomed . I don't know where to attach the scale error of 40 lbs or is it significant?Did you measure the front axle load separately for "Suburban alone"?. That's an important value. The main purpose of a WDH is to restore all or most of the load which was removed from the front axle.
The numbers provide two estimates of tongue weight -- (3200+4720)-6980 = 940# and 7980-7000 = 980#.
The numbers provide three estimates of GCW -- 3200+4720+7000 = 14920, 3280+4680+7000 = 14960, and 6980+7980 = 14960.
The difference of 40# in the first GCW easily could be resolved by changing the numbers to 3240+4740+6980 = 14960. That "adjustment" would give internally consistent values which would indicate that when WD was applied: 40# was added to the front axle, 60# was removed from the rear axle, and 20# was added to the trailer axles. This 2:3:1 relationship is consistent with how a WDH works.
However, as Bryan pointed out, the numbers indicate almost no load was being transferred. The indicated load transfer to the trailer axles was 20# versus approximately 200# transfer to the trailer which would result from proper WDH adjustment.
The indicated 40 or 80# added to the front axle is not nearly enough. With a tongue weight of nearly 1000#, when the WDH is properly adjusted, it will add back 400-500# to the front axle. And we need to know the unhitched front axle load in order to know how much load should be added back.
Ron
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Ron Gratz
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05/25/12 05:48am |
Towing
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RE: wieght dist.hitch?
---If everything is set up correctly, the tow vehicle will settle down evenly, front and rear. Compare the coupled height measurements at the front and rear wheel openings to the ground with the measurements taken during Step 1. If front settles lower than rear, increase the number of chain links between lift unit and spring bar. If rear settles excessively lower than front, decrease the number of chain links between lift unit and spring bars. You should be able to get within 1/2 inch both front and rear. Ensure there are always at least 6 links between the lift unit and the spring bar.This hitch setup advice appears to come from the towing experts at ehow.com. See Step 8.
Unfortunately, the advice is about 40 years out of date.
It might have been necessary to have "equal squat" when the 1970's family sedan was used as a tow vehicle.
For modern tow vehicles, the more enlightened TV and WDH manufacturers do not agree with the advice posted by ehow.com
Ron
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Ron Gratz
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05/24/12 04:11pm |
Travel Trailers
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RE: Extending trailer tongue
Have a 31' Rockwood and instead of putting a class III hitch in back where the frame is very light, my dad and I are considering extending the tongue and putting platform on front for bike (in front of LP tanks). We are skilled welders and local RV shop said "go for it". However, need more opinions.---What is the tongue weight of the loaded trailer in its current configuration?
How much does the bike weigh?
How much length do you plan to add?
What would be the added weight of the extension?
Will you be using a weight distribution hitch?
What is your tow vehicle?
Is the "local RV shop" a Rockwood dealer?
Have you asked Rockwood about this modification?
If you will provide answers to these questions, I'll be happy to provide some opinions.
Ron
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Ron Gratz
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05/24/12 03:44pm |
Travel Trailers
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RE: finding max trailer weight for SUV
Some rough estimates --
The 11000# GCWR and 5900# max trailer weight indicate a curb weight of 11000-5900 = 5100#.
The 6600# GVWR and a curb weight of 5100# indicate a payload capacity of 6600-5100 = 1500#.
Assuming the added weight of optional equipment, passengers (excluding driver), and cargo (including 80# for weight distribution
hitch) totals 700#,
you would have a remaining payload capacity of 1500-700 = 800# for trailer-induced vertical load.
When using a WDH, a maximum trailer-induced vertical load of 800# would correspond approximately to a maximum tongue weight of 800/0.75 = 1067#.
Assuming a tongue weight percentage of 13 percent, the corresponding maximum allowable loaded trailer weight would be about 1067/0.13 = 8200#.
However, the maximum loaded trailer weight actually will be controlled by the "Maximum trailer weight" of 5900#.
The maximum allowable trailer weight will be approximately 5900-700 = 5200#.
Given the same assumptions listed above, except with a 7400# Max trailer weight (3.92 axle),
the maximum allowable trailer weight would be about 7400-700 = 6700#.
You will need to substitute your best estimate of the weight of added optional equipment, passengers, and cargo and work through the above procedure to get a refined estimate.
Note that the procedure gives a estimate for maximum allowable trailer weight which is not the same as the trailer's GVWR unless you actually plan to load the trailer to that value, which most people do not.
Ron
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Ron Gratz
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05/23/12 08:32pm |
Tow Vehicles
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RE: correct number of links for tensioner
Forget about trying to make the TV level.
Your weight distribution hitch should be adjusted so the load on the front axle is approximately the same as, or slightly less than, the load when unhitched.
When you get the front end right, the rear will take care of itself.
Since approximately 75 percent of the TT's tongue weight will be carried on the TV's rear axle, the rear should have some drop --
perhaps as much as 1.5-2" depending on tongue weight and stiffness of the rear suspension.
Ron
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Ron Gratz
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05/23/12 05:17pm |
Towing
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RE: Is the trailer I want too heavy and long?
My TV is a 2011 Ford Expedtion 4x4 5.4 V8 with 3.73 gear with a heavy duty tow package and according to ford I can tow up to 8900 lbs. The two trailers we are looking at are as follows. In order of which we like best.
2013 Passport 3220BH
Length: 35'5
Hitch weight:600 lbs
Dry weight: 6140 lbs
Cargo:1391 lbs
2012 Passport 2910
Length: 32'10
Hitch weight: 725 lbs
Dry weight: 5354 lbs
Cargo:1846 lbsIf you want to remain within the TV's weight ratings, the maximum amount of trailer weight depends on several currently unknown factors:
1) How much load do you plan to add to the TT on top of its dry weight listed above?
2) How much weight of passengers (excluding driver), optional equipment, and cargo (including about 80# for a weight distribution hitch) do you plan to carry in/on the TV?
3) What are the front GAWR and rear GAWR values from sticker on driver's door.
4) What is the maximum "Combined Weight of Occupants and Passengers" from sticker on driver's door or door pillar.
5) What is the "Weight Distributing" Maximum Tongue Weight from the sticker on the hitch receiver.
Ron
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Ron Gratz
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05/23/12 04:08pm |
Tow Vehicles
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RE: tire and rim rating vs. GAWR
What is the trailer's GVWR?
When you are using a weight distribution hitch, approximately 90% of the trailer's total weight will be carried on the axles. The other approximately 10% will be carried on the tow vehicle.
So, even if you load the trailer to its GVWR, which most people do not, the 1760# tires probably provide more than 10# of wiggle room per tire.
Ron
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Ron Gratz
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05/23/12 06:04am |
Travel Trailers
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RE: correct number of links for tensioner
What make and model of WDH do you have? Most manufacturers specify a mininum of five links under tension.
The "tightness" of the bars depends on how much load you want to transfer.
Ron
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Ron Gratz
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05/22/12 07:04pm |
Towing
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RE: 3rd vehicle strictly for towing? Need advice.
Thanks everyone...lots of great ideas! I think I am sold on the "30' or under" concept. Just because of where we camp and I believe sometimes "less is more." That might be the case with us and camping. And with all the great suggestions of the king slides, looking at models of Slingshots, Sprees, etc. we should definitely be able to find something that will fit the bill. And I agree with a lot of you, we have been tent camping for 3 years, a PUP would have been heaven at times so these would seem like a castle!If you really have decided on a TT of 30' or less, there should be a good selection of models which can be towed with a 1500 Suburban.
Shouldn't be necessary to have a 3rd vehicle (3/4 ton) strictly for towing.
Ron
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Ron Gratz
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05/22/12 04:45pm |
Tow Vehicles
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RE: Maximum I can tow safely with this truck
I have a 2012 Ford F-150 Ecoboost with the 3.5 V6 engine 3:73 ratio with Max towing package. Sticker on door says GVWR-7650 lbs. Manual says maximum towing capacity is 11,200. Does this mean I can safely tow 11,000?---First, to answer the question -- No, you cannot tow 11,000#. The loaded trailer weight should not exceed 11,200# minus the total weight of TV's optional equipment, passengers (excluding 150# driver), cargo, and about 80# for a weight distribution hitch.
Second, in order to provide informed advice, we need to know:
1a) The measured axle weights for your TV when loaded approximately as it would be loaded for camping plus about 80# for WDH, OR
1b) Your best estimate of the total weight of items listed in the first paragraph above.
2) The front GAWR and rear GAWR values from sticker on door.
3) The maximum "Combined Weight of Occupants and Passengers" from sticker on driver's door or door pillar.
4) The "Weight Distributing" Maximum Tongue Weight from the sticker on the hitch receiver.
Ron
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Ron Gratz
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05/21/12 04:07pm |
Tow Vehicles
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RE: Can either of these be 1/2 ton towed...safely?
We have a 2010 KZ Spree and pulled it with a K1500 Yukon XL for a season. It will pull it but not comfortable.---The Spree 324BHS has a dry weight which is 1300-2200# greater than the trailers described in the original post.
That much weight difference can make a large difference in how a trailer tows. And, towing "comfort" is very subjective.
Ron
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Ron Gratz
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05/20/12 08:21pm |
Travel Trailers
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RE: Input from those with kids...
For payload calculations, I am assuming 650 lbs of people/junk in the cab of the truck. The 281BHS is 5091 lbs dry plus 1500 lbs of stuff in it plus 150 lb WDH plus 100 lbs batteries/propane/water gives me a loaded trailer weight of 6841. Using a 12.5% tongue weight goal, I get 855 lbs of tongue weight. Finally, 855+650=1505 and I am right on the edge of what my truck can do payload wise.For payload calculations, you do not need to consider the entire tongue weight.
You need to consider only the portion of the tongue weight which is transferred to the TV.
A reasonable assumption is that a load equal to about 75% of TW will be transferred to the TV.
With a TW of 855# and your other assumptions,
your payload would be approximately 650 + 855*0.75 = 1291# versus the truck's payload rating of 1500#.
Ron
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Ron Gratz
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05/20/12 05:26pm |
Travel Trailers
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RE: Do we need to find something under 30 ft?
For a fairly wide range of TV/TT dimensions,
if the WDH is adjusted to return the front axle load to its unhitched value,
a load equal to about 20-30% of the tongue weight will be transferred to the TT's axles.
For estimating purposes, I tend to use 25%.
Although I didn't do it with your procedure,
I usually treat the weight distribution hitch as part of the tow vehicle rather than part of the trailer.
IOW, I do not consider the weight of the WDH to be part of the "tongue weight".
I tend to use 13% as a typical ratio of tongue weight to total trailer weight.
However, I have no problem with using 12.5% for estimating.
Ron
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Ron Gratz
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05/20/12 02:38pm |
Travel Trailers
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RE: Can either of these be 1/2 ton towed...safely?
Whether you can "safely" tow a given trailer depends on many unknown factors.
Without more information, we only can make some very rough estimates.
These estimates can be used to determine if it is likely you'll be able to stay within the TV's ratings.
Let's assume you can keep the loaded trailer weight to 6500#.
IMO, you can ignore the trailer's GVWR unless you actually plan to load it to that value. Most people do not.
Corresponding tongue weight would be about 850# and the TV's receiver must be rated for at least that much.
Using your estimate of 850# of stuff to be added to the TV and adding another 150# for optional equipment and weight distribution hitch, gives 1000# which must be subtracted from the "Payload" and "Maximum Trailer Weight".
Based on the above assumptions, the Max Trailer Weight rating would have to be 6500+1000 = 7500# or more.
Assuming the WDH distributed 75% of the TW to the TV, the TV would be carrying 850*0.75 = about 650# plus 1000# of passengers and cargo for a total of 1650#. So, the TV's payload would have to be 1650# or more.
In summary, assuming 1000# of passengers and cargo in TV:
For loaded TT weight = 6500#
Tongue Weight would be about 850#
"Receiver TW rating should be at least 850#
"Max Trailer Weight" should be at least 7500#
"Payload" should be at least 1650#
Assuming 1000# of passengers and cargo in TV:
For loaded TT weight = 5500#
Tongue Weight would be about 700#
"Receiver TW rating should be at least 700#
"Max Trailer Weight" should be at least 6500#
"Payload" should be at least 1550#
Ron
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Ron Gratz
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05/20/12 02:19pm |
Travel Trailers
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RE: Do we need to find something under 30 ft?
---So, with a family of 5, let's just say the people/stuff weigh (these are wild guesses, so please don't be offended) 700 lbs total (2 adults @ 200 lbs plus 3 kids @ 100 lbs each, and this includes all their "stuff" like car seats, electronics, pillows, etc. Adjust up or down for your particular family). That's 700 of your 1600 payload which is gone before you put ANYTHING else in the vehicle or attach any trailer! So you have 900 lbs of tongue weight left for your trailer.The allowable tongue weight (based on payload considerations) is not 900#.
The estimated value of 900# is the allowable trailer-induced vertical load.
With a properly-adjusted WDH, the trailer-induced vertical load on the TV will be equal to about 75% of the tongue weight. The other 25% gets transferred to the TT's axles.
The allowable tongue weight therefore would be about 900/0.75 = 1200#.
And, if you follow through your assumptions and math, you'll find that a 300# increase in allowable tongue weight yields a 2400# increase in allowable trailer weight.
However, you'd need to check the hitch receiver's tongue weight rating to see if a 1200# TW would be within the rating.
The revised numbers (with changes in blue):
0.125*(X+1500+150+100) < (1600-700)/0.75
that is,
X+1750 < 9600
that is,
X < 7850.
So with the Suburban 1500, your max dry trailer weight---under the (reasonable) assumptions listed above---is a mere 7850 pounds!
Ron
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Ron Gratz
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05/20/12 01:31pm |
Travel Trailers
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RE: How much sway is normal - Reese dual cam round bars @ 60mph?
Etrailer.com has videos and instructions on the proper installation and setup of all kinds of hithches. Good reference site.IMO, you need to be very careful how you read or listen to these videos. For example, the text from Installation of a Weight Distribution and Sway Control System
:
---Next we need to get a few measurements on the van before we put the weight on there. We will measure from the top of the wheel wells then down to the ground and note those. Ideally we want to have about a 1/2 inch of sag overall and the rear measurement should not sag more than 1/2 inch. Looks like the back wheel is 36 and the front wheel is 35.---IMO, there should not be any front-end sag. Ford, Chewvrolet/GMC, Toyota, Equal-i-zer, Curt, and others also do not agree with adding load to the TV's front axle.
---we will take the tension off of the jack and let the bars do all the work and check our measurements. Go ahead and measure here {front-originally 35"} 35-1/2. About a 1/2 inch difference which is just fine. Then {rear-originally 36"} 35-1/4 which is pretty close. The rear was okay but the front did not settle like it was suppose too, in fact it went up just a little bit. Also one detail we will look for is that the spring bars if you notice should be parallel to the bottom of the tongue.Now it gets confusing. In the first quote, they said the front should drop about 1/2". Now, it is "just fine" for the front to be up 1/2". Although, they note the front did not settle like is was supposed to.
IMO, there is no basis for stating the WD bars should be parallel to the bottom of the tongue. I've not found any support for this in the Reese instructions -- only that there should be at least 5 links under tension.
--- With adjusting it one more notch down and we have gained about an 1/8th of an inch overall in front which is fine. Then on the back we settled it about a 1/2 inch.---Now they take a more reasonable approach and dispense with the out-dated notion of "equal sguat". The final and acceptable (to them) result is a 1/8" rise in the front and a 1/2" drop in the rear. HOWEVER, the amount of rear-end drop will depend on the TV's rear suspension. The Ford van used in this video might have a stiffer rear suspension than many TV's. There's nothing wrong with having as much as 2" drop on some vehicles.
Before you accept any blanket-statement advice for adjusting your WDH you should check your TV's Users Manual to see what it says.
Ron
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Ron Gratz
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05/20/12 12:57pm |
Travel Trailers
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RE: Fixing Reese Dual Cam round bars setup
Anyway, the system was made to level the trailer so I guess it should be ok.It is not ok if the ride height control raises the rear of the TV AFTER you adjust the WDH.
Let's say you first adjust the WDH to restore the correct amount of load to the front axle with the height control OFF.
With the front end at the correct height, the added load on the rear axle will cause the rear to be below "level".
When the height control "kicks in", it will (I assume) raise the rear end to the "level" height.
Raising the hitch will cause load to be removed from the WD bars, and that will cause load to be removed from the front axle and added to the rear axle.
The front no longer will be at the correct load/height.
One way to use ride height control in conjunction with weight distribution is to initially "over-adjust" the WDH to transfer more than the desired amount of load to the front axle.
Then when the height control kicks in, it will raise the rear and remove some (hopefully, all) of the excess load from the front.
By trial and error, you can determine how much initial over-adjusting will result in having the right amount of load added to the front after the height control does its thing.
Ron
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Ron Gratz
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05/20/12 11:48am |
Towing
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RE: Fixing Reese Dual Cam round bars setup
---It turned out that the Toyota air suspension kicked in and leveled the trailer and the hitch.What does your Owners Manual say about using a weight distribution hitch in conjunction with the ride height control system?
Ron
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Ron Gratz
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05/20/12 05:18am |
Towing
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RE: White Hawk 27DSRL or Passport GT 2890RL, 1/2 ton towable?
I'll be towing with a 2011 Ford F150 supercrew 5.0 engine, and factory tow package with brake controller. I'm assuming this will be ok.---In order to provide you with informed advice, we need more information.
As you can see from the Towing Guide, there are more than 20 combinations of wheelbase and axle ratio for the 5.0L engine.
The "Maximum Loaded Trailer Weights" range from 7500# to 10000#.
For your truck, we need to know the following:
Gross Combination Weight Rating - GCWR
Gross Vehicle Weight Rating - GVWR
Maximum Trailer Weight
Maximum Weight of Cargo and Occupants (on Tire and Load Information sticker)
This information can be found in your Owners Manual and/or on the stickers located on the driver's door or door pillar.
We also need to know your best estimate of how much weight of passengers and cargo you'll be carrying in the truck.
And, we need your best estimate of how much load you'll be carrying in the trailer -- including weight of fresh water and waste water if any.
Do I need a WDH with anti-sway?---Yes. The OEM hitch receiver is rated for only 500# tongue weight if you are not using a weight distribution hitch.
Ron
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Ron Gratz
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05/19/12 07:30am |
Travel Trailers
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RE: WD hitch size
If you really think you'll load 3200# of stuff into the trailer to bring it up to its 10000# GVWR, you should assume your tongue weight will be around 1300#.
However, if you load like most people, it's likely your loaded weight might be around 8300#.
If so, your loaded tongue weight might be around 1100#. In that case, the 1200# bars would be a good match.
Ron
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Ron Gratz
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05/18/12 03:10pm |
Towing
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